The way we screwed up the universe.

[Freodin]

Humans sin? It´s the fall!

Comets crashing into planets? The fall!

Universes colliding, entropy, "devolution", all that is not "perfect" in this world? Hey, it´s us who is to blame!


I´m sure we all have seen arguments like these.

So now I want to now: does anyone have an hypothesis, an idea, a hint of how we did that?

By what mechanism did "human sin" cause all this?

 

[thwap]

Through divine powers? If you are assuming there is in fact original sin as outlined by the bible, then it's pretty reasonable to assume that god exists, and has done it!

 

[Jkurtz]

I'm going to quote a friend of mine.

I believe that Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge were not literal trees.

I believe that the Tree of Life was the embodiment of the Spirit of Christ, and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was the embodiment of the Spirit of the Antichrist.

I believe the "fruits" were not literal fruits, but teachings (Christ called teachings "fruits"). I believe that "eating" from the "tree" means "listening to the teachings of".

They chose the Antichrist over the Christ, and they were punished for their disloyalty. The serpent was Satan, a serpent being symbolic of his sneaky, low-down nature.

We were tested by God, using the trees. We failed. And God laid out certain punishments. The punishments were as follows

Pains in Childbirth
Eventual Death
Having to grow our own food (it won't turn out as good as the Lords, that's for sure)
Pollution
Seperation
Sin
Torment

The list goes on and on.

We created diseases using sins. We did things wrong. Didn't grow things right, or in improper areas. People died or became disformed because of this malnutrition, diseases entered the world through our stupid acts.

The universe was sent at whack, most likely because of the flood. A flood that covered the whole earth would definitely change some things. Do you disagree? This would most likely create natural disasters, Shift plates, change wind currents, formation, breaking of the earth, sea level. Why? As a punishment.

Everything else around the universe is basically alright. Except earth. Certain things are the way they are for certain reasons around the Universe. On earth, it was for punishment. That was his reason for doing those things.

 

[Freodin]

Through divine powers? If you are assuming there is in fact original sin as outlined by the bible, then it's pretty reasonable to assume that god exists, and has done it!

But that would defeat the original argument. It would mean that God screwed up the universe as a result of our sin.

Of course that would be possible, but would have some rather unpleasant theological consequences.

 

[Freodin]

I'm going to quote a friend of mine.


We were tested by God, using the trees. We failed. And God laid out certain punishments. The punishments were as follows

Pains in Childbirth
Eventual Death
Having to grow our own food (it won't turn out as good as the Lords, that's for sure)
Pollution
Seperation
Sin
Torment

The list goes on and on.

We created diseases using sins. We did things wrong. Didn't grow things right, or in improper areas. People died or became disformed because of this malnutrition, diseases entered the world through our stupid acts.

The universe was sent at whack, most likely because of the flood. A flood that covered the whole earth would definitely change some things. Do you disagree? This would most likely create natural disasters, Shift plates, change wind currents, formation, breaking of the earth, sea level. Why? As a punishment.

Everything else around the universe is basically alright. Except earth. Certain things are the way they are for certain reasons around the Universe. On earth, it was for punishment. That was his reason for doing those things.

That´s what I meant with the "Unpleasant theological consequences".

You realize that this destroys the whole concept of God´s justice?

 

[Jkurtz]

How will it have unpleasant consequences?

The Lord dealt punishment. HE knew this earth wasn't going to be around forever. He can punish them for there deeds. But he didn't leave it at that. He gave us a chance to come back to him. And many have accepted it. And because of that we will be away when the ultimate consequence comes.

The ultimate consequence for sin is coming soon.

 

[Freodin]

How will it have unpleasant consequences?

The Lord dealt punishment. HE knew this earth wasn't going to be around forever. He can punish them for there deeds. But he didn't leave it at that. He gave us a chance to come back to him. And many have accepted it. And because of that we will be away when the ultimate consequence comes.

The ultimate consequence for sin is coming soon.

Ah yes - but see: he didn´t punish "them" (that is: us) for their deeds. He punished all of humanity preemptively. Punishment before crime - if you can fit that within any concept of justice, I would be very surprised.

 

[Freodin]

...Everything else around the universe is basically alright. ...

If you consider that there are Christians who deny that anything died before the fall, I would like to know if you would think that the death of stars (I did mention entropy in the OP) is "basically alright".

Did God create a universe that will inevitably lead to a heat-death, or is that as well a "punishment for humans"?

 

[Physics_guy]

If you consider that there are Christians who deny that anything died before the fall, I would like to know if you would think that the death of stars (I did mention entropy in the OP) is "basically alright".

Only really ignorant creationists think that entropy began at the Fall (even AiG lists this on their arguments not to use page). A whole lot of beneficial processes would be impossible if it wasn't for entropy.

 

[gluadys]

The Lord dealt punishment. HE knew this earth wasn't going to be around forever.

Are you saying that God never intended for the earth to last forever? Funny, why did he not tell the psalmist that?

Ps. 72: 68 And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has founded forever.

Ps. 104:5 He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever.


Does God take away the gifts he has given?

Ps. 115: 16 The heavens are the heavens of the LORD, But the earth He has given to the sons of men.

 

[JohnR7]

By what mechanism did "human sin" cause all this?

Truman had a sign on his desk that said: "the buck stops here". He had the highest position and ultimately, he was responsable.

God gave man the "job" of being in charge of the earth. Man has dominion and authority over all the other animals. There is no animal that can not be tamed by man. In the end, those who destroy the earth, will be destroyed, because they did not make good use of the stewardship that they were given. We are to take care of the earth, not destroy it.

 

[JohnR7]

Are you saying that God never intended for the earth to last forever? Funny, why did he not tell the psalmist that?

The earth will not last forever in the condition it is in. It will be renewed first. Those who want to be a part of God's plan of redemption and restoration, are invited to come and be a part of it. Those who reject God's offer will perish.

God will first restore the earth, to His origional plan, purpose and intent. Then it will last forever, the way God intended for it to be. We just need to be careful not to think of forever as involving time. The clock ticks for those who have not made their decision yet.

 

[asthenia]

I don't think that we will get to the stage of the earth being destroyed. We still have the rapture to go through and the millenia that follows it. As far as I know, the earth still has at least 1,007 years in it.

 

[Redhat 9.1]

What 'rapture'?

People actually believe that?

 

[Sopharos]

Yup, there are still people hanging around on the streets with "The end of the world is nigh" signs around their necks.

 

[JohnR7]

What 'rapture'?

People actually believe that?

The "rapture" is the resurrection. If we were not resurrected from the dead then what use would all the rest of it be? That is the only way to eternal life.

 

[Redhat 9.1]

The "rapture" is the resurrection. If we were not resurrected from the dead then what use would all the rest of it be? That is the only way to eternal life.

No it is not. The word rapture is never used in the Bible.

 

[Jesusfreekwanabe]

i dont know a lot ....
but i do belive there are 3 in takes to why the world is the way it is .
( or primary ones)

i do dissagree with the whole punisment thing .
i do know that Adam and Eve were punished , and i do belive the treess were VARRY literal , how ever much to as God dose for shaodwing for other things that we may have some thign to under thand the by. phreaps he made men to be a little an the slow side , u can teach sumoen sumthing if they know it all all ready ( I.E> why many of us go and hang out on forums)

1. men sin dua , we have full chioce and power , as Jesus even sated we are as gods . and becase of our sin and what not we do hurt others

2 . i dotn think that man realy wants to sin , we normaly end up dooing it though , but to us as in the garden life was fine untill we were intraduced to the lie

( and that is why our creatism VS evloutism / any other religion isms are intangeld we want to know the truth , we are flood with deception and want to know if " we shold bite the apple or not " each time we have the chance to accept sum thing )( u cant accecpt EVERTHING some of it , most likely nearly all of it is lies)


3 lastly the world is cursed , as it says in genisis , God cursed the earth adn cast us out of the garden . ( id like to point out that adam and even clearly knew there shame and were afride to ask forgiveness )
and curresed things dotn work well , can u immagain an earth quake in heaven ???? i dont even think that heaven has a river of burring fire , ahet hem , i mean molting lava core .....

than-q

 

[Jesusfreekwanabe]

I don't think that we will get to the stage of the earth being destroyed. We still have the rapture to go through and the millenia that follows it. As far as I know, the earth still has at least 1,007 years in it.

Pish posh i say ummm 47 MAX the earth is arock and cold exist for ever how ever the resources on it will be sucekd up by abotu 6billion ppl dayly for more than 20 years ill tell ya what .

kinda boggels your mind on how much hummans consume the fact that the rain forest are stil alive shold be an acomplisment

but i know varry little

 

[michabo]

The spelling, it huuuuurts!