The way we screwed up the universe.

[challenger]

I'm going to quote a friend of mine.


We were tested by God, using the trees. We failed. And God laid out certain punishments. The punishments were as follows

Pains in Childbirth
Eventual Death
Having to grow our own food (it won't turn out as good as the Lords, that's for sure)
Pollution
Seperation
Sin
Torment

The list goes on and on.

We created diseases using sins. We did things wrong. Didn't grow things right, or in improper areas. People died or became disformed because of this malnutrition, diseases entered the world through our stupid acts.

The universe was sent at whack, most likely because of the flood. A flood that covered the whole earth would definitely change some things. Do you disagree? This would most likely create natural disasters, Shift plates, change wind currents, formation, breaking of the earth, sea level. Why? As a punishment.

Everything else around the universe is basically alright. Except earth. Certain things are the way they are for certain reasons around the Universe. On earth, it was for punishment. That was his reason for doing those things.

I thought you were a creationist, or have I got you mixed up with somebody else? If you are, how can you accept a non-literal tree of life but not a non-literal Genesis 1/2?

 

[Jkurtz]

Ah yes - but see: he didn´t punish "them" (that is: us) for their deeds. He punished all of humanity preemptively. Punishment before crime - if you can fit that within any concept of justice, I would be very surprised.

It's not pre punishment. He punishes us for what we're doing, what we have done, and will do. He knows what's going to happen. Every outcome, every move you make, he knows. You can't hide from God.

 

[challenger]

It's not pre punishment. He punishes us for what we're doing, what we have done, and will do. He knows what's going to happen. Every outcome, every move you make, he knows. You can't hide from God.

Well there's free will out the window yet again...

 

[JohnR7]

No it is not. The word rapture is never used in the Bible.

The word rapture comes from the Latin Vulgate translation. In the KJV the words used is "caught up".

1 Thes. 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Every christian believe that we will be "caught up" but there are a lot of different beliefs on just when and how this is going to happen.

 

[kevkev]

Man, I've missed you JohnR7, long time no see.

And yes we messed up the Uni!

 

[Larry]

....There is no animal that can not be tamed by man....

Wow!

 

[gluadys]

Pish posh i say ummm 47 MAX the earth is arock and cold exist for ever how ever the resources on it will be sucekd up by abotu 6billion ppl dayly for more than 20 years ill tell ya what .

kinda boggels your mind on how much hummans consume the fact that the rain forest are stil alive shold be an acomplisment

but i know varry little

Well it could last a lot more than 20 years if 6% of those 6 billion people stopped sucking up 80% of the resources.

I am told it would take an additional five planet earths if all 6 billion were to be as wasteful of resources as North Americans.

 

[JohnR7]

the resources on it will be sucekd up by abotu 6billion ppl dayly for more than 20 years ill tell ya what

That is why the government is pushing to promote hydrogen fuel. The disaster with the Hindenburg kinda shut down the research at the time. But the resources are so vast that now they feel the difficultry of working with hydrogen maybe worth it. Only right now more research is going into the use of hydrogen for electric, and very little research to try to use it as a combustion fuel. Perhaps no one wants to take a chance on another disaster, or perhaps it is just to difficult right now to use it as a combustion fuel.

The real challange right now is in heating our buildings in the winter. One church I attend has a $12,000 a month heating bill in the winter and another church is running up to $28,000 per month to heat their buildings in the winter. 50 & 100 years ago, it was not a problem, but now it is beginning to be a problem to heat the same building they had no problem to heat before.

 

[Freodin]

It's not pre punishment. He punishes us for what we're doing, what we have done, and will do. He knows what's going to happen. Every outcome, every move you make, he knows. You can't hide from God.

IIRC, it is our "fallen nature" that leads us inevitably to sin. So why would we be punished for something that is only the result of this punishment?

Else there would have to be the chance - even the slightest - that humans are able to live without sinning.

If this chance exist, these humans would have been punished injustly.

And if this chance does not exist - if humans inevitable have to sin - then why is that so?

 

[JohnR7]

Else there would have to be the chance - even the slightest - that humans are able to live without sinning.

God does a work in us, so that we can live free from all sin if we want.

To sin means to harm others in some way.

 

[Jesusfreekwanabe]

Well it could last a lot more than 20 years if 6% of those 6 billion people stopped sucking up 80% of the resources.

I am told it would take an additional five planet earths if all 6 billion were to be as wasteful of resources as North Americans.

there in lies the issue , waste full ppl , like us north americans .....
dirty americans

but that dose not matter , yes wasting is bad in many ways but it still stands that we consume soo much and have so little .

i dont see how 6% of 6 billion ppl can suck up 80% of the resources
i mean that is like less than what 2-6 millillion ppl ?

and waht about them ppl in arabia that we by oil form , we have puchraced so much oil form them it might make your head spiin and they dont sell it cheep ither , they raize it quite high and there is not much we can do bout it . but they make tons of myenu and dont help no-body but thee little contry - as far as i know

and as i said i know varry little

 

[gluadys]

but that dose not matter , yes wasting is bad in many ways but it still stands that we consume soo much and have so little .

How very true. As the good Lord says: one's life does not consist in the abundance of possessions.

i dont see how 6% of 6 billion ppl can suck up 80% of the resources
i mean that is like less than what 2-6 millillion ppl ?

It's 360 million, approximately the population of the US + Canada and maybe a little more. One way the US uses a huge amount of resources is on the military. Canada doesn't spend as much on the military, but we pretty much match the US on consumer spending. Did you know, for example, that more than 1/2 of the world's total catch of tuna goes to feed N. American pet cats instead of people? And, of course, most of what does go to people, goes to N. America & Europe, not Asia or Africa.

 

[Starstreak M86]

It's not pre punishment. He punishes us for what we're doing, what we have done, and will do. He knows what's going to happen. Every outcome, every move you make, he knows. You can't hide from God.

Hey friend!

I feel honored that you used my measly little quote!

Yes, there is no way to hide from God. We still have free will, but that doesn't mean that we can hide our will from God, and He already knows ahead of time what we will do.
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/xdimgod.html

God knew that Adam and Eve would fail the test, but He turned disaster into triumph! As the Apostle Paul said, "Just as all die in Adam, all shall be made alive in Christ." (Hebrews 9)

What a wonderful plan! Christ made our future even greater than the original Eden was.

 

[Asimov]

God knew that Adam and Eve would fail the test, but He turned disaster into triumph!

I find it odd that an all-knowing, all-powerful God could make something that would turn into a disaster....

What a wonderful plan! Christ made our future even greater than the original Eden was.

Another strange way of going about "fixing" his own mistake.

 

[Starstreak M86]

I find it odd that an all-knowing, all-powerful God could make something that would turn into a disaster....

Who says He made the Tree evil? Satan turned himself evil. Angels have free will, as do humans. That shows what level God created us at. As microcosms of Himself (originall perfect microcosms, turned bad in and of their own bad decisions).

Another strange way of going about "fixing" his own mistake.

How was it His mistake? Adam and Eve messed up. The "disaster" was Adam and Eve's mistake. God turned their miserable failure into a glorious triumph in the End.

The failure was in MANKIND, not God.

Nice try to turn the tables on God, but no cigar.

 

[Asimov]

Who says He made the Tree evil? Satan turned himself evil. Angels have free will, as do humans. That shows what level God created us at. As microcosms of Himself (originall perfect microcosms, turned bad in and of their own bad decisions).

5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

Well...apparently it's God himself who said he created evil...

How was it His mistake? Adam and Eve messed up. The "disaster" was Adam and Eve's mistake. God turned their miserable failure into a glorious triumph in the End.

The failure was in MANKIND, not God.

Adam and Eve messed up...right. These simplistic beings with no knowledge of right and wrong, no knowledge of even why they are here, only that they are here...are punished for something that God knew they would do, yet didn't know that what they were doing was wrong.

Nice try to turn the tables on God, but no cigar.

Mmmmmm....cigars......

 

[Starstreak M86]

Well...apparently it's God himself who said he created evil...

Sure. In that He created a being that became evil (Satan). Satan was not originally evil. God also said in the Bible that evil does not come from Him (in that He does not make things evil).

Satan became totally evil on his own, but God was His Creator. That is what God meant by Him "creating" evil. There is a difference between creating evil, and being evil.

God was talking about His sovereingty in creating ALL things.

Adam and Eve messed up...right. These simplistic beings with no knowledge of right and wrong, no knowledge of even why they are here, only that they are here...are punished for something that God knew they would do, yet didn't know that what they were doing was wrong.

How so? God warned them. Adam knew what God was talking about. So did Eve. Eve even originally rebuked Satan, she only listened because he appaled to her ego.

You sure seem to think that you know Adam and Eve inside out. How do you know they were "simplistic"? They were created in God's direct image, being only one step below God. I think that implies that they were mighty lofty and intelligent. Adam even named all animals.

Adam and Eve were probably smarter than both of us.

Mmmmmm....cigars......

*snatches cigar away from Asimov*

Thank you kindly!



P.S.
I'm not trying to be scathing or snide. I have nothing against you. I'm just trying to set the record straight.