The way the world is heading

[Vanguard PCD]

Are you suggesting Muslims are justified in killing Christians because of the Catholic Church crusading period?

Sigh.

No, I am saying there has been bad blood over there for centuries and it is not going to stop anytime soon. That and the USA keeps sticking its nose in other people's business.

 

[tchilld50]

Your right The churches need to come together all over the world, but you see how even in this thread there is disagreement about a number of things. How do we make people want to stand up for God. I have been praying for God to pour out his spirit on this world and unite His children. First we all need to agree to speak out understanding the parts of the Body of Christ. There are those we should be covered, those weak in faith. They will not be able to speak out. There are those who are the hands and feet which are shown to the public.

I think what we can do is spread Love to our Brothers and Sister first and unite as Christians, then Love the world and call the sinners the way Jesus did.

I wonder, if we knew just how much power we have, just by agreeing with each other, what we could change in this world. The disciples showed us what they could do by living Jesus' way. They didn't have the "Bible" as we know it, they had the "living Bible". He taught against denominations, sects, warning about deceivers, to be careful what they listened too, using leaven as an example. We must go back to the Bible, it's teachings, it's standards, speaking what is truth, refusing to back down as the disciples did. They were stoned, beheaded, crucified upside down, but they were not passive in their beliefs. That is what it's going to take to see souls saved.

 

[AFM]

My point was not that we shouldn't resist, but rather that it's pointless and would be a waste of energy to direct ourselves toward trying to change our country. Things are going to get worse, and we are always to expect the Lord's second coming. In which case, politics would not be very rewarding, as they are not only solely carnal but also wouldn't last very long and would take months or years before change could occur.

However, I am not supporting the 'anti-religion' laws. I believe that those laws can be Biblically disobeyed, because that is God's territory. It's like a King sending governors to rule you. You'll obey the governors, but if you're loyal to the King, you will obey his laws before the governors (for example, if they say that everybody must worship only on Saturdays and the King says you may and should worship every day of the week). So I don't believe in 'going quietly'. When the government tries to restrict religious freedom, we don't have to obey those laws because we are free from them by God. Any punishment for disobeying them is a manner of persecution which Christians must always face - it's like the Martyrs who were martyred by the Catholic Church - 'Recant or die.' And they didn't recant. Likewise, when asked to 'Cease <Godly behavior>' or be fined / sued', we ought to take our fines and lawsuits, as that is our lot in life.

 

[Bluelion]

I wonder, if we knew just how much power we have, just by agreeing with each other, what we could change in this world. The disciples showed us what they could do by living Jesus' way. They didn't have the "Bible" as we know it, they had the "living Bible". He taught against denominations, sects, warning about deceivers, to be careful what they listened too, using leaven as an example. We must go back to the Bible, it's teachings, it's standards, speaking what is truth, refusing to back down as the disciples did. They were stoned, beheaded, crucified upside down, but they were not passive in their beliefs. That is what it's going to take to see souls saved.

i agree, and I think that day is coming.

 

[Bluelion]

My point was not that we shouldn't resist, but rather that it's pointless and would be a waste of energy to direct ourselves toward trying to change our country. Things are going to get worse, and we are always to expect the Lord's second coming. In which case, politics would not be very rewarding, as they are not only solely carnal but also wouldn't last very long and would take months or years before change could occur.

However, I am not supporting the 'anti-religion' laws. I believe that those laws can be Biblically disobeyed, because that is God's territory. It's like a King sending governors to rule you. You'll obey the governors, but if you're loyal to the King, you will obey his laws before the governors (for example, if they say that everybody must worship only on Saturdays and the King says you may and should worship every day of the week). So I don't believe in 'going quietly'. When the government tries to restrict religious freedom, we don't have to obey those laws because we are free from them by God. Any punishment for disobeying them is a manner of persecution which Christians must always face - it's like the Martyrs who were martyred by the Catholic Church - 'Recant or die.' And they didn't recant. Likewise, when asked to 'Cease <Godly behavior>' or be fined / sued', we ought to take our fines and lawsuits, as that is our lot in life.

I think that is called being a pacifist. I don't think Jesus meant for that, nor was Jesus one. Jesus kept the Laws and still spoke out against the politics of the church. The government did not interfere with him preaching. If we have this right of religious freedom isn't it better to fight to keep it than to let it be taken away and then face mass persecution and death. Granted that would hasten the Lords return. I think it is wise to say by your own law we are allowed to do this. Than to say I will not obey your laws. It is wise to keep falling back on a right until they take it away and then we can say I will not be silent. We are not to test the Lord, just because we are willing to die for him does not mean we run around yelling kill me.

I think what made America great was The Lord. the fact that His children had so much freedom, now if that is taken a way yes The Lord will deal with it. I think it is right though we are very vocal about the government challenging the Lord.

You did not say anyone was wrong, but maybe how vocal Christians are about issues is God's will. Maybe He is warning the government and wicked not to test him to turn from there wickedness. What do you think about that? if we look at The Bible through out it God has warned empires through his people before he took action against them. I feel we much be more vocal now, will it stop it, no. Maybe it will bring more souls to Christ though, and at least people would know the truth even if they reject it. what do you think?

 

[Bluelion]

Sigh.

No, I am saying there has been bad blood over there for centuries and it is not going to stop anytime soon. That and the USA keeps sticking its nose in other people's business.

So you feel it is nothing New and America is just stirring the pot. No killing Christians is not new however, the holy war declared is new. I have a feeling you will say why look at these things maybe I am wrong. Well if we had been watching hilter maybe over 6 million Jews would not have had to die.

The Bible says History repeats, Jesus said watch the skys, so we are to look at the sign of the times. He gave us signs to know the end is drawing near. He meant for us to look for them or He would not have given them.

 

[AFM]

What I mean is that regardless of whether or not we're 'allowed' to preach, we'll preach anyway, because that's what we have to do. I just think there's more useful things to do, such as ministering to the dying or trying to convert sinners than to try and make life a bit more comfortable for us. I like to use the phrase 'Physical pacifists, Spiritual warriors.'

Also, I think that while God may punish wicked countries for their sins, I think that may have been more active in the OT, when God was more involved with nations and politics. Now, I think, it's more about the final judgement. Christians are, afterall, bound for all the persecution told of in Revelation, and nothing we do will alter that fact.

 

[Bluelion]

What I mean is that regardless of whether or not we're 'allowed' to preach, we'll preach anyway, because that's what we have to do. I just think there's more useful things to do, such as ministering to the dying or trying to convert sinners than to try and make life a bit more comfortable for us. I like to use the phrase 'Physical pacifists, Spiritual warriors.'

Also, I think that while God may punish wicked countries for their sins, I think that may have been more active in the OT, when God was more involved with nations and politics. Now, I think, it's more about the final judgement. Christians are, afterall, bound for all the persecution told of in Revelation, and nothing we do will alter that fact.

Yes we have and will be persecuted. I thought we were trying to save souls with preaching against gays, sexual sin, and all manor of sin. WHy Christians are yelling about rights is because we are being told to shut up, and governments are trying to silents us.

You say just pay the fine do the time. Take Hobby Lobby if they pay the fine every years it would break the company so they go out of business soon there are no Christian business and my only choice is go to a store that promotes sin, and values which are against the Bible. So then i have to make my kids prisoners because there is no save place for them left, and now I am supporting the very thing I am against. so what next don't go to the store. Well there are more and more laws about living off the land. You can not really do that any more. You need a license to hunt there are times you need a license to fish. There are land Laws. Christians are being pushed out of the world, and what of our kids? There will be nothing left for them.

Jesus said about the end times when you are persecuted in one town fee to the next you will not reach all the towns in Israel before I come. What you say has weight and I get where it comes from, but Jesus also said about those days pray you are not pregnant for they will be hard times. This is the tribulation period which Jesus said to flee. You are right it is coming, but I think fines will give way to prison and that will give way to murder of Christians.

You really made me think, thank you so much for that. i still think we should screams The Lords message, as Jesus said what i whisper in you ear shout from the mountains tops.

But not just pay the fines, but give extra as Jesus speaks what to do if sued in court. hmm interesting Its a New way to look at things. i see your point.

 

[AFM]

I think we're both trying to say the same thing except we're using completely different vocabularies. It's like trying to describe a red box except one of us is saying, "It's a red thingie' and another one is saying, "It's a boxy thingie!"

I'm not saying we shouldn't preach against the corruption of the world, against homosexuality, nor against sin, but merely that getting overly involved in voting, getting too deep into 'trying to save 'our' country', or pursuing a political career would clearly be a waste of time, given what we know.

 

[least]

I think we should defintely vote. We are, after all, citizens of the this country and it is our civic duty. Does God not command us to obey the government? "Therefore whoever resists the athorities resists what God has a appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment." (Rom. 13:2). We have a duty appointed to us by our government to vote according to our belief of how things should be. For us, that is according to a Christian worldview. We may indeed incur judgment if we fail to do our duty. This is not to say that we make an incredible scene over things, but we ought to peacefully exercise our right to free speech, which is a responsibility given to us by God. Let us then do the good that we can do while we can do it, and when it is taken away, let us be faithful to God.

 

[Bluelion]

I think we should defintely vote. We are, after all, citizens of the this country and it is our civic duty. Does God not command us to obey the government? "Therefore whoever resists the athorities resists what God has a appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment." (Rom. 13:2). We have a duty appointed to us by our government to vote according to our belief of how things should be. For us, that is according to a Christian worldview. We may indeed incur judgment if we fail to do our duty. This is not to say that we make an incredible scene over things, but we ought to peacefully exercise our right to free speech, which is a responsibility given to us by God. Let us then do the good that we can do while we can do it, and when it is taken away, let us be faithful to God.

Good point.

You are right we are to obey to a point, if it conflicts with God we are to rebel as Daniel did throwing his windows open and praying.

 

[least]

No doubt about that, God must always be before everything. I am in the military and it seems each year it is becoming less Christian friendly. Presently, I still get to witness to others, but I have heard of some Soldiers who have been "disciplined" for it. I suppose my time may come, but God must come first at all times and at all cost. So I don't disagree with you in anyway, only that we must exercise our freedoms for as long as we have them.

 

[Bluelion]

No doubt about that, God must always be before everything. I am in the military and it seems each year it is becoming less Christian friendly. Presently, I still get to witness to others, but I have heard of some Soldiers who have been "disciplined" for it. I suppose my time may come, but God must come first at all times and at all cost. So I don't disagree with you in anyway, only that we must exercise our freedoms for as long as we have them.

I think time is running out Just on the news today they were blasting Russia for its stance on gays and they said something to the affect of can you believe that 75% of Russians think homosexuality is wrong. I felt like I was in another country. Is this really the stances of the whole country. For the first time i think I feel my values Christians values no longer matter in America, and we are no longer represented.

Its sad the country has gone ultra liberal. Media is anything but unbais, they push and push the governments agenda.

 

[AFM]

I think we should defintely vote. We are, after all, citizens of the this country and it is our civic duty. Does God not command us to obey the government? "Therefore whoever resists the athorities resists what God has a appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment." (Rom. 13:2). We have a duty appointed to us by our government to vote according to our belief of how things should be. For us, that is according to a Christian worldview. We may indeed incur judgment if we fail to do our duty. This is not to say that we make an incredible scene over things, but we ought to peacefully exercise our right to free speech, which is a responsibility given to us by God. Let us then do the good that we can do while we can do it, and when it is taken away, let us be faithful to God.

Jesus says "my kingdom is not of this World". Therefore we are citizens not of America but of Heaven. It's more like we've been sent from Heaven to do missions work, yet we abandoned our work for a time, and now have returned to God to go back to what we abandoned.

I would look at it this way: If a King sends governors to rule over certain parts of his people, and the King says, "you will not eat pork" and the governors say, "you will eat pork every saturday as a feast", you will have to obey the King, though he told you to obey your governors, because your loyalty lies to the King and not to his governors, though you would otherwise obey the governors. When the government begins to go against the Bible and Biblical laws, it is betraying God and thus we must obey God before the government, for it is essentially rebelling against God, and in following it we depart from God and welcome Satan.

 

[FredVB]

I think there are all sorts of problems in the world that could do it in. Civilization almost in whole has started with, continued with, and goes on now completely rejecting including God and doing as he would call for. These problems are what comes from the doings of civilization and with rejecting God, even Yahweh the only true God, all this rebellious society is subject justly to the consequences coming from those problems. We would best not take part in any of that, as we want to seek the right things of God. He may then help us with deliverance. Indeed we can be snatched away before Judgment comes directly from him, and times of tribulations that are associated with that. But we can be ready with doing right in light of coming problems that come before that.

 

[Bluelion]

Came across a part in the Bible in Mathew where Jesus says it will be like it was in the days oh Noah and sin will run rampant. Are we all in agreement sin is run wild these days?

I think we can measure this world by our kids and kids are going into schools killing other kids. Kids are killing themselves. Kids are taken anything they can to get high. My oldest son is an atheist(please pray for him) I am his step father but love him like my own. He goes nuts when you speak of God. Normally he is a good kid but you mention God and he flys off the handle. His dad is an atheist. So yeah I think our kids are showing a real break down in the world.

 

[Keachian]

It is not Biblical to suggest God would pour out his wrath On his church.

The Olivet Discourse, The discussion of persecution at the last Supper (John 15:18-16:15) The occasion for the Epistle to the Hebrews, among other places where discipline is seen as a sign of Sonship puts to flight such fancies to be honest. Our comfort in the trials of this life is that Christ is in control and all things are under his Lordship, till he returns, yea come Lord Jesus, Come!

 

[Bluelion]

The Olivet Discourse, The discussion of persecution at the last Supper (John 15:18-16:15) The occasion for the Epistle to the Hebrews, among other places where discipline is seen as a sign of Sonship puts to flight such fancies to be honest. Our comfort in the trials of this life is that Christ is in control and all things are under his Lordship, till he returns, yea come Lord Jesus, Come!

Sorry I am a simple man with a simple life, living a simple way. What was your position again?

 

[Keachian]

Sorry I am a simple man with a simple life, living a simple way. What was your position again?

I believe that there is enough evidence from the Bible that what the Dispensationalist describes as the "Tribulation" is merely what is to be thought of as the Christian life and that we are refined through such as gold is through flames, our focus in all these things is to be Christ himself, for he is in control.

But then I find I am always butting heads with you on Christ's Supremacy and Lordship.

 

[Bluelion]

I believe that there is enough evidence from the Bible that what the Dispensationalist describes as the "Tribulation" is merely what is to be thought of as the Christian life and that we are refined through such as gold is through flames, our focus in all these things is to be Christ himself, for he is in control.

But then I find I am always butting heads with you on Christ's Supremacy and Lordship.

Really that is funny. I have never nor do I disputed Jesus Lordship. That is a false accusation. I didn't know we were butting heads, simple ask you to state your position so I could understand it. You having a bad day? Need some prayers?

I think the Tribulation, namely the rapture is focus on Jesus. It is the churches faith that Jesus will rescue us, and spare the church His wrath.