The Waters Above the Firmament

[Job 33:6]

Claiming God was a dummy that could not get it right and that people in ancient times were as thick as a brick is not a believing way to look at things actually.

Nobody said God was a dummy. But were the ancient isrealites aware of how far stars were away from them? No. Of course they weren't. And literally nothing in history or scripture suggests otherwise.

On the contrary, suggesting that ancient isrealites we're ubergalactic super brains with advanced futuristic knowledge of wormhole astrophysics, now that's absurd.

And none of this has anything to do with doubting scripture. I'm doubting your imaginary extra-biblical interpretation of scripture, but I am 100% trusting in the Bible.

Try to imagine God is real. Try to imagine He talked to us in the days of the fathers.

Your views involve ideas that are not stated in scripture. Speaking to mankind does not mean giving us intergalactic super knowledge.

You think God enlightened mankind with knowledge of how far the stars were away? No. They didn't know. So when they said that the stars were in the firmament, there is no logical way for them to have concluded that the firmament extended infinitely into space. And thus, when they said there were waters above the firmament, they meant visibly in the blue sky that resembles water right above then. They didn't mean that water traveled through a wormhole from some distant galaxy elsewhere in the universe or beyond.

 

[Job 33:6]

"You think God enlightened mankind with knowledge of how far the stars were away? No. They didn't know. So when they said that the stars were in the firmament, there is no logical way for them to have concluded that the firmament extended infinitely into space. And thus, when they said there were waters above the firmament, they meant visibly in the blue sky that resembles water right above then. They didn't mean that water traveled through a wormhole from some distant galaxy elsewhere in the universe or beyond."

It just can't be more simple.

One position involves hyper scientifically enlightened peoples which did not write anything indicating that they were hyper scientifically enlightened, and events that are not spoken of in scripture including the possibility of intergalactic wormholes.

The alternative involves taking scripture at face value, no assumptions made about advanced knowledge for which their is no evidence, no assumptions or beliefs about intergalactic wormholes, we have historical accounts from nations around the world which also describe the same firmament in the same way (flat, limited in distance, you can go through windows in it). And it's just common sense.

Alright. You can have the final word but I rest my case. I think it's blatantly obvious that my position is truly biblical (or at least a lot closer to being correct) than this strange alternative you've offered. I think that what you've done is you've made a monstrosity out of scripture with all these extra-biblical imagined ideas. And in response you've suggested that I have doubts about something? No. I am not doubting (though I do believe that doubting can be healthy and I think that all Christians can doubt and still have a strong relationship with God), but ultimately I'm trusting in the word. Rather than making up stories, I'm abiding with the plain language of what the Bible, God's word, says.

 

[Job 33:6]

"You think God enlightened mankind with knowledge of how far the stars were away? No. They didn't know. So when they said that the stars were in the firmament, there is no logical way for them to have concluded that the firmament extended infinitely into space. And thus, when they said there were waters above the firmament, they meant visibly in the blue sky that resembles water right above then. They didn't mean that water traveled through a wormhole from some distant galaxy elsewhere in the universe or beyond."

It just can't be more simple.

One position involves hyper scientifically enlightened peoples which did not write anything indicating that they were hyper scientifically enlightened, and events that are not spoken of in scripture including the possibility of intergalactic wormholes.

The alternative involves taking scripture at face value, no assumptions made about advanced knowledge for which their is no evidence, no assumptions or beliefs about intergalactic wormholes, we have historical accounts from nations around the world which also describe the same firmament in the same way (flat, limited in distance, you can go through windows in it). And it's just common sense.

Alright. You can have the final word but I rest my case. I think it's blatantly obvious that my position is truly biblical (or at least a lot closer to being correct) than this strange alternative you've offered. I think that what you've done is you've made a monstrosity out of scripture with all these extra-biblical imagined ideas. And in response you've suggested that I have doubts about something? No. I am not doubting (though I do believe that doubting can be healthy and I think that all Christians can doubt and still have a strong relationship with God), but ultimately I'm trusting in the word. Rather than making up stories, I'm abiding with the plain language of what the Bible, God's word, says.

@power1 why do you think that I am doubting God in my position?

I think that you might be doubting because God is more grand than perhaps you might have thought. You think that my ideas may be deconstructionist. But I would say that this is where God truly meets us when we earnestly seek Him.

Let doubt sharpen your sword and grow in the word.

 

[power1]

Nobody said God was a dummy. But were the ancient isrealites aware of how far stars were away from them? No. Of course they weren't. And literally nothing in history or scripture suggests otherwise.

The measure of knowledge is not what modern science thinks about creation. They have contrived an elaborate scenario that tries to explain creation away. God created the stars so He knows exactly how far they are and even the actual names of each. He also knows their full and actual nature and origin and destiny. Man's wisdom is screaming outright foolishness to God.

And none of this has anything to do with doubting scripture.

We can say it sure has nothing to do with belief in it or honouring it.

I'm doubting your imaginary extra-biblical interpretation of scripture, but I am 100% trusting in the Bible.

Empty words. The windows of heaven God opened to bring the water down and He closed. That is pure Scripture.

Your views involve ideas that are not stated in scripture. Speaking to mankind does not mean giving us intergalactic super knowledge.

Yes it does. God speaks of what is beyond the stars. He tells where the stars actually came from and what their future is. He spoke to Moses who most people say wrote Genesis. He did not speak to Carl Sagan or any other pagan dreamer.

You think God enlightened mankind with knowledge of how far the stars were away?

He did enlighten us to know that an angel that was outside this observable universe of stars traversed the distance to earth and arrived here before Daniel could open his eyes after a prayer! You just said you are '100% trusting in the bible', so we should assume you believe this also? Ha

No. They didn't know. So when they said that the stars were in the firmament, there is no logical way for them to have concluded that the firmament extended infinitely into space.

That would be God that said He made the stars and placed them in the firmament. Man would only echo that, and believe or disbelieve it.

And thus, when they said there were waters above the firmament, they meant visibly in the blue sky that resembles water right above then.

They had zero to do with what God said actually. Since God says the stars were made in that firmament
Genesis 1:6
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Genesis 1:7
And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Genesis 1:8
And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Genesis 1:14
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
That is from the book you claim you trust 100%.

They didn't mean that water traveled through a wormhole from some distant galaxy elsewhere in the universe or beyond.

There is no other water mentioned in the bible to the time of that flood other than the waters that were above the firmament of heaven. (except the sea and rivers)

 

[power1]

@power1 why do you think that I am doubting God in my position?

I think that you might be doubting because God is more grand than perhaps you might have thought. You think that my ideas may be deconstructionist. But I would say that this is where God truly meets us when we earnestly seek Him.

Let doubt sharpen your sword and grow in the word.

Thanks for that post, I was almost questioning if you might somehow just be deceived and sincere. I no longer am.

 

[Job 33:6]

That would be God that said He made the stars and placed them in the firmament. Man would only echo that, and believe or disbelieve it.

You shouldn't confuse God inspired with God written. Most biblical scholars consider Moses to be the author, or otherwise individuals after the time of Moses.
https://zondervanacademic.com/blog/who-wrote-genesis

People are the medium in which God's message has passed. Which is why we have dozens of translations for scripture, and in some instances we acknowledge that some translations tell us the message with more clarity than others.

And not only that but we further have varying interpretations of course. "In" the firmament, according to you means stars that are millions of light-years away and "in" outer space, and thus water above the firmament must have come from millions of light-years away.

I would say this is incorrect. The isrealites didn't know how far the stars were because they hadn't traveled space. They didn't even know what stars were. And because stars appear equidistant and they all appear to move together as one unit, it would make sense that they were essentially "pinned into" or "in" the firmament, which explains how birds could fly across the [flat] face of the firmament (because it's not just empty space by an expanded structure), the firmament was a structure not hundreds of millions of light-years away, but rather it was right above them.

This waters above the firmament would be what gives the sky it's blue color. And thus, flood waters quite simply just came from the sky, aka it was rain from the sky that caused the flood.

No extra dimensional portals acting as wormholes for water to travel from millions of light-years away to earth is necessary.

Personally, I'm confident that my position is absolutely more in line with the authors views, given that nothing in scripture indicates that they knew the planet was a sphere or that stars were far away or that the firmament wasn't a flat spread out structure. And yet, everything in scripture indicates that they believed what every other culture and society of that time believed.

Source:
https://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/te...s/Text/Articles-Books/Seely-Firmament-WTJ.pdf

And if you can't see why wormholes transporting water from millions of light-years away isn't absurd and extra/un-biblical, then there's just not much I can do for you.

No wormholes and ubergalactic futuristic scientific knowledge needed.

 

[Job 33:6]

:
That is from the book you claim you trust 100%.
There is no other water mentioned in the bible to the time of that flood other than the waters that were above the firmament of heaven. (except the sea and rivers)

Like I said, there's no reason to believe that water from the heavens came from some wormhole spanning the milky way Galaxy, given that the firmament was just above the authors of Genesis, perhaps even within reach if they had a tall enough ladder.

All of your ideas about water passing through portals to different dimensions is all just completely imaginary and unbiblical. Scripture says no such thing. You've merely made it up.

 

[power1]

You shouldn't confuse God inspired with God written. Most biblical scholars consider Moses to be the author, or otherwise individuals after the time of Moses.
https://zondervanacademic.com/blog/who-wrote-genesis

People are the medium in which God's message has passed. Which is why we have dozens of translations for scripture, and in some instances we acknowledge that some translations tell us the message with more clarity than others.

And not only that but we further have varying interpretations of course. "In" the firmament, according to you means stars that are millions of light-years away and "in" outer space, and thus water above the firmament must have come from millions of light-years away.

I would say this is incorrect. The isrealites didn't know how far the stars were because they hadn't traveled space. They didn't even know what stars were. And because stars appear equidistant and they all appear to move together as one unit, it would make sense that they were essentially "pinned into" or "in" the firmament, which explains how birds could fly across the [flat] face of the firmament (because it's not just empty space by an expanded structure), the firmament was a structure not hundreds of millions of light-years away, but rather it was right above them.

This waters above the firmament would be what gives the sky it's blue color. And thus, flood waters quite simply just came from the sky, aka it was rain from the sky that caused the flood.

No extra dimensional portals acting as wormholes for water to travel from millions of light-years away to earth is necessary.

Personally, I'm confident that my position is absolutely more in line with the authors views, given that nothing in scripture indicates that they knew the planet was a sphere or that stars were far away or that the firmament wasn't a flat spread out structure. And yet, everything in scripture indicates that they believed what every other culture and society of that time believed.

Source:
https://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/te...s/Text/Articles-Books/Seely-Firmament-WTJ.pdf

And if you can't see why wormholes transporting water from millions of light-years away isn't absurd and extra/un-biblical, then there's just not much I can do for you.

No wormholes and ubergalactic futuristic scientific knowledge needed.

I do not share your opinion that Scripture is to be considered man made and subject to revision as man's wisdom and inspiration sees fit. Either God knows how to get His word through the men He chose to do so, or not. There is no doubt the sun and moon and stars were in the firmament.

 

[power1]

Like I said, there's no reason to believe that water from the heavens came from some wormhole spanning the milky way Galaxy, given that the firmament was just above the authors of Genesis, perhaps even within reach if they had a tall enough ladder.

All of your ideas about water passing through portals to different dimensions is all just completely imaginary and unbiblical. Scripture says no such thing. You've merely made it up.

Not my idea. The windows of heaven that opened and closed brought the water (as well as the fountains of the deep). Your speculation as to how that happened is opinion. By the way, where do you claim the water via the windows came from exactly? Ha

 

[Job 33:6]

Not my idea. The windows of heaven that opened and closed brought the water (as well as the fountains of the deep). Your speculation as to how that happened is opinion. By the way, where do you claim the water via the windows came from exactly? Ha

But it is your idea because you described having believed that waters came from millions of light-years away or perhaps from another dimension.

Regarding scripture, my conclusion is that the rain came from the sky. Where all rain comes from. The authors of Genesis may have thought that stars were close and may have therefore thought that rain came from beyond the stars however. After all, they did not have telescopes, satellites and trigonometry to know otherwise.

 

[power1]

But it is your idea because you described having believed that waters came from millions of light-years away or perhaps from another dimension.

The distances I do not believe are actually known, and do not matter anyhow. If God wanted to open up a passage that spans space and time there is no plastic tube needed. My idea is that we do not know what God's opening heaven is all about.

Regarding scripture, my conclusion is that the rain came from the sky. Where all rain comes from.

The flood rain did not come from there, because we are told the fountains of the deep opened. So some water came from below. We also know that the windows of heaven brought water. If you want to believe that there was enough water to drown a planet and cover it's highest mountains in water in clouds above the earth, that is up to you. That is obviously ridiculous. In addition it had not rained before so what are clouds with a planet full of water doing there anyhow?

The authors of Genesis may have thought that stars were close and may have therefore thought that rain came from beyond the stars however.

Pure speculation.

After all, they did not have telescopes, satellites and trigonometry to know otherwise.

And yet another allusion to modern science and the wisdom of man, as if vastly superior to God and His people of old.

 

[Job 33:6]

The distances I do not believe are actually known, and do not matter anyhow. If God wanted to open up a passage that spans space and time there is no plastic tube needed. My idea is that we do not know what God's opening heaven is all about.
The flood rain did not come from there, because we are told the fountains of the deep opened. So some water came from below. We also know that the windows of heaven brought water. If you want to believe that there was enough water to drown a planet and cover it's highest mountains in water in clouds above the earth, that is up to you. That is obviously ridiculous. In addition it had not rained before so what are clouds with a planet full of water doing there anyhow?

Pure speculation.

And yet another allusion to modern science and the wisdom of man, as if vastly superior to God and His people of old.

But clearly it does matter how far the stars are away, because earlier you were rejecting my suggestion that isrealites believe that the stars were equidistant and directly above them.

If you agree that the Israelites did not know how far away the Stars were, and therefore can agree that rain came from the sky just as all rain does, then we would be in agreement.

 

[Job 33:6]

But clearly it does matter how far the stars are away, because earlier you were rejecting my suggestion that isrealites believe that the stars were equidistant and directly above them.

If you agree that the Israelites did not know how far away the Stars were, and therefore can agree that rain came from the sky just as all rain does, then we would be in agreement.

The difference between stars being millions of light years away and stars being directly above the ancient Hebrews is the difference between extra-dimensional portals versus rain simply coming from where it always comes from, the sky.

 

[Job 33:6]

The distances I do not believe are actually known, and do not matter anyhow. If God wanted to open up a passage that spans space and time there is no plastic tube needed. My idea is that we do not know what God's opening heaven is all about.
The flood rain did not come from there, because we are told the fountains of the deep opened. So some water came from below. We also know that the windows of heaven brought water. If you want to believe that there was enough water to drown a planet and cover it's highest mountains in water in clouds above the earth, that is up to you. That is obviously ridiculous. In addition it had not rained before so what are clouds with a planet full of water doing there anyhow?

Pure speculation.

And yet another allusion to modern science and the wisdom of man, as if vastly superior to God and His people of old.

Also, once you put into perspective that the ancient Hebrews didn't know that earth was a sphere, and did not know the full extent of planet Earth, then you come to the understanding that they also would not have known if the flood was truly planetary. After all, how could they know that the flood covered the globe, spherical planet, if they didn't know that the planet was spherical to begin with.

And in actuality, when we read the original Hebrew scripture, we see that nowhere in Genesis is the flood actually described as having covered a spherical planet. It says that water covered the land, but it doesn't go on to the state or detail what that land encompasses or what it's extant is or is not.

I could say that flood water covered all the land, but if I wasn't aware that there was any continent or town or village or country beyond my own, how could I know That water was in other countries if I had no idea that they existed? But if my understanding was that my land was all land that existed, and I said that water covered all the land, other places on Earth very well could be completely dry and I would have no idea.

Do you understand Genesis, you have to put yourself into the shoes the authors some 3,000 years ago. They didn't know what stars were, they didn't know that the planet was a globe floating in space. They didn't know how far the stars were away.

There are verses in Revelations about stars falling, but how could stars fall to Earth? Even a single star would engulf earth, And so it wouldn't make sense for many stars to fall into Earth. Some people try to change scripture by interpreting this language to mean that meteorites will fall, but that's just not what the scripture says, the scripture doesn't say meteorites It says stars.

But if we put ourselves into the author's shoes, and we get to a point where meteorites look like stars and stars look like meteorites before the modern era of satellites, now all of a sudden it makes sense that perhaps they didn't mean meteorites but they simply referred to them as lights in the sky or stars. Realistically they probably didn't know what those objects were. And likely did not know them to be much like our own sun.

And it only really makes sense when you put yourself in those shoes of the original authors.

 

[power1]

But clearly it does matter how far the stars are away

, It clearly is no concern whatsoever to a God very much smarter than science.

because earlier you were rejecting my suggestion that isrealites believe that the stars were equidistant and directly above them.

I don't recall discussing that. How would we know what Abraham or Noah thought about star distances??

If you agree that the Israelites did not know how far away the Stars were, and therefore can agree that rain came from the sky just as all rain does, then we would be in agreement.

No possibility that rain to cover a planet came from clouds especially on a planet that had probably not even seen rain.

 

[power1]

Also, once you put into perspective that the ancient Hebrews didn't know that earth was a sphere, and did not know the full extent of planet Earth, then you come to the understanding that they also would not have known if the flood was truly planetary. After all, how could they know that the flood covered the globe, spherical planet, if they didn't know that the planet was spherical to begin with.

Not sure why you leave God out of every equation. He knew. I have no reason to doubt that his people probably knew more than we think as well.

 

[Job 33:6]

Not sure why you leave God out of every equation. He knew. I have no reason to doubt that his people probably knew more than we think as well.

God is present. I'm just saying that scripture doesn't indicate that the Isrealites knew the distances of stars or what stars were or that earth was a globe etc.

The Hebrews could have simply written that Earth was a globe, but they didn't. And in my opinion the only rational conclusion for why this is, is that they simply didn't know because they didn't have modern technology.

 

[power1]

God is present. I'm just saying that scripture doesn't indicate that the Isrealites knew the distances of stars or what stars were or that earth was a globe etc.

It does not indicate that science knows them either! Go figure.

The Hebrews could have simply written that Earth was a globe, but they didn't.

Not like they said it was a square or pyramid or etc either. They didn't say it was flat.

And in my opinion the only rational conclusion for why this is, is that they simply didn't know because they didn't have modern technology.

My conclusion is that you do not know what they really thought and don't much care what God knew so that you can honour and reverence modern man's wisdom.

 

[Job 33:6]

It does not indicate that science knows them either! Go figure.
Not like they said it was a square or pyramid or etc either. They didn't say it was flat.

My conclusion is that you do not know what they really thought and don't much care what God knew so that you can honour and reverence modern man's wisdom.

The words they use, firmament, birds flying across the face of, separating waters from waters, pillars holding up, water from beyond the firmament etc.

I think it makes 110% perfect sense when read with the understanding that their views were likely similar to views of every other nation of their time.

https://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/te...s/Text/Articles-Books/Seely-Firmament-WTJ.pdf

Historically it aligns with what others believed. Scientifically it makes sense, and scripturally it matches up with exactly how they worded things.

Alternatively, if flood waters truly did come from beyond the stars, all of a sudden we have broken away from historical accounts (now all of a sudden the Isrealites have unprecedented divine knowledge yet didn't write enough to actually clarify that this were true), we have broken away from science and we have broken away from scriptures because to be fair, scripture doesn't actually say that water was traveling through space portals.

 

[power1]

The words they use, firmament, birds flying across the face of, separating waters from waters, pillars holding up, water from beyond the firmament etc.

Birds do fly across the sky. Waters were separated. Pillars are something we do not yet understand that support the surface of the earth, or that refer to something the world was built on etc. There is nothing wrong with God using the words.

I think it makes 110% perfect sense when read with the understanding that their views were likely similar to views of every other nation of their time.

Every other nation believed in spirits as well. Why is it you try to hammer the verses about the heavens into line with pagans and science, but not their main views? The views were similar in that they all believed in spirits as well as some sort of afterlife.

Historically it aligns with what others believed. Scientifically it makes sense, and scripturally it matches up with exactly how they worded things.

Nothing about invented clouds on earth before it even rained that covered the highest mountains of water is scriptural. You seem to want to grasp at any straw to avoid facing what the opening in the heavens actually had to be.

Alternatively, if flood waters truly did come from beyond the stars, all of a sudden we have broken away from historical accounts (now all of a sudden the Isrealites have unprecedented divine knowledge yet didn't write enough to actually clarify that this were true), we have broken away from science and we have broken away from scriptures because to be fair, scripture doesn't actually say that water was traveling through space portals.

Breaking from science is nothing to be avoided. Scripture does say the water came through those openings in heaven. It also says that stars and the sun and moon are in that firmament which divides the waters. So, if we are supposed to ignore that water was up there, and that water came down in the flood from somewhere up there, why would that be? Just so you can invent some imaginary other place it came from?