The Waldensees

[Gary K]

I have started reading a book by Paul Blair written in the 1800s that I downloaded from Google Books. It has this to say about the Sabbath.

There is an Exposition of the Apostles' Creed by the Wal-
denses and Albigenses, in which they quote, 1 John v. 7. in
defence of the Trinity, and they defend all the doctrines now
found in that summary except descending into hell and be-
lieving in the holy catholic church. Among the documents
we have by the same peoples, an explanation of the Ten Com-
mandments, dated by Boyer 1120. +
It contains a compend
of Christian morality.
Supreme love to God is enforced, and
recourse to the influence of the planets and to sorcerers, is
condemned. The evil of worshipping God by images and
idols is pointed out. A solemn oath to confirm any thing
doubtful is admitted, but profane swearing is forbidden . Ob-
servation of the Sabbath, by ceasing from worldly labours and
from sin, by good-works, and by promoting the edification of
the soul through prayer and hearing the word, is enjoined.
The fifth, sixth and seventh commandments are explained in
the ordinary way.
On the eighth precept, not only theft,
but fraud, coining base money, gambling for gain, and trifling
away time, are condemned. False witnessing, lies and slan-
ders, are severely censured under the ninth ; and covetous-
ness, with all internal lustings, are denounced under the tenth
precept. The conclusion states, that the two parts of the law
are the enforcement of our duty to God and to our neighbour,
and teaches that the use of the law is to convince men of sin,
in order to persuade them to confess it, and to plead for par-
don at God's throne of grace. p. 220

There are several other quotes showing that the Waldensees kept the Sabbath. Even their enemies were forced to admit they lived holy, just lives and took their doctrines from people who knew the apostles personally.

During the dreadful persecution of 1655, the churches of
Piedmont, in a Confession of Faith, publicly declare their
agreement, " in sound doctrine, with all the reformed churches
of France, Great Britain, the Low Countries, Germany, Swit-
zerland, Bohemia, Poland, Hungary, and other places, being
ready to subscribe to that eternal truth of God with our own
blood, even as our ancestors, since the days of the apostles, and
especially in these latter ages."
In 1825, an English traveller asked Mr Pierre Bert, pastor
of the Waldensian church of La Tour :-" Was the church of
the Waldenses founded by Claudius, bishop of Turin ?" The
answer is :- " He was not the founder, but the Waldenses
being in his diocese, persevered in the Christian doctrine."
The next interrogatory is :-" If not by Claudius, by whom
was the church founded ?" Mr Bert replied :-" Tradition,
and the testimonies attribute the foundation to the apostles."
p. 11

So, all the arguments about the early church fathers such as Origen saying the Sabbath was changed by the apostles are not true.

This is a very interesting book on the history of Christianity. The Waldensees suffered the same persecution as the people during the Reformation. Having the scriptures on them, or even one book of the Bible, or even a few verses. was a crime worthy of death in Rome's eyes as the Bible is the enemy of Rome.

 

[trophy33]

I was unable to find any note about Waldensians keeping Sabbath in the kingdom of Bohemia. They were influencing the Unity of Brethren here, but this church also did not and does not keep Sabbath.

All references about them keeping Sabbath I was able to find lead to English sources from Seventh Day Adventists, namely Ellen White.

 

[Gary K]

I was unable to find any note about Waldensians keeping Sabbath in the kingdom of Bohemia. They were influencing the Unity of Brethren here, but this church also did not and does not keep Sabbath.

All references about them keeping Sabbath I was able to find lead to English sources from Seventh Day Adventists, namely Ellen White.

It did for more than a thousand years. Are you calling the author a liar? Have you done as much research as He did?

Edit:

Here is a quote from the title page.

HISTORY
OF THE
WALDENSES ;

WITH AN

INTRODUCTORY SKETCH OF THE HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCHES
IN THE SOUTH OF FRANCE AND NORTH OF ITALY, TILL THESE
CHURCHES SUBMITTED TO THE POPE, WHEN THE WAL-
DENSES CONTINUED AS FORMERLY INDEPENDENT
OF THE PAPAL SEE.

BY THE REV. ADAM BLAIR.
​

Adventists never call a minister Reverend. We only call them Pastor or Elder for we don't believe in inflating their egos.​

 

[trophy33]

Are you calling the author a liar? Have you done as much research as He did?

I have never heard of him. I have no idea what he researched or not, from Ireland, in the 18th century and what sources he used.

But Waldensians were not known (and are not known) for keeping Sabbath.

 

[Gary K]

I have never heard of him. I have no idea what he researched or not, from Ireland, in the 18th century and what sources he used.

But Waldensians were not known (and are not known) for keeping Sabbath.

Here is a list of books written by Adam Blair.

Adam Blair Books | List of books by author Adam Blair

Take a look at how many pages there are in both volumes. I'd say he did a massive amount of research.

 

[trophy33]

Here is a list of books written by Adam Blair.

Adam Blair Books | List of books by author Adam Blair

Therefore?

 

[Gary K]

Therefore?

He knew far more about the subject than both of us put together. So you are in fact calling him a liar when you say the Waldenses have never kept the Sabbath.

 

[trophy33]

He knew far more about the subject than both of us put together. So you are in fact calling him a liar when you say the Waldenses have never kept the Sabbath.

My goodness, your logical fallacies again. I am leaving this.

 

[JSRG]

I was unable to find any note about Waldensians keeping Sabbath in the kingdom of Bohemia. They were influencing the Unity of Brethren here, but this church also did not and does not keep Sabbath.

All references about them keeping Sabbath I was able to find lead to English sources from Seventh Day Adventists, namely Ellen White.

This has been my experience as well. Modern Waldensians, for whatever it's worth, appear to observe Sunday.

However, the work being mentioned here is the one by Adam Blair (the original post incorrectly says Paul Blair, but Gary K does state the name correctly in subsequent posts), so let's look at it. It should be noted first that htis book was from the 1830's, and any book from nearly 200 years ago is going to be a bit out of date on scholarship. But even accepting the claims of the work as accurate, it really doesn't provide evidence the Waldensians observed Saturday. It is true that on page 220 it offers a summary of a commentary on the Ten Commandments by the Waldensians, and in it (as quoted in the opening post) says "Observation of the Sabbath, by ceasing from worldly labours and from sin, by good-works, and by promoting the edification of the soul through prayer and hearing the word, is enjoined."

The first question we have here, is what does he mean by Sabbath? This book was published back in the 1830's, and back then, "Sabbath" was often used to refer to Sunday with the belief that the Sabbath had been changed to Sunday--some still refer to Sunday as Sabbath today, but typically some kind of qualifier is added to avoid confusion. But at the time, simply using "Sabbath" would often be understood to mean Sunday. So, does Blair mean Saturday or Sunday when he says Sabbath there? Looking at usage of "Sabbath" elsewhere in his work, he is inconsistent--sometimes it is clearly used to refer to Saturday, sometimes clearly Sunday. Due to this, it's not clear whether he's saying they observed a Saturday Sabbath or a Sunday Sabbath.

However, the quote about them observing Sabbath wasn't the Waldensian document itself, but rather Blair's summary of it. What does the document itself say? A translation is offered in an appendix at the end of the work, so we can see what the original document (the commentary on the Ten Commandments) said. On page 527, the following is stated at the start of its section on the Fourth Commandment:

They that will keep and observe the Sabbath of Christians, that is to say, to sanctify the day of the Lord, must be careful of four things. The first is to cease from all earthly and worldly labours: the second, not to sin: the third, not to be idle in regard to good works: the fourth, to do those things that are for the benefit of the soul."

The qualification "of Christians" for Sabbath indicates Saturday is not in view. By itself this might not seal the deal, but it clarifies further with "that is to say, to sanctify the day of the Lord". "Day of the Lord" or "Lord's Day" is a term used to refer to Sunday (there is some argument about whether its usage in the earliest centuries AD referred to Sunday, but by this point it most certainly did). So this statement indicates that they viewed the Fourth Commandment as commanding rest on Sunday, not Saturday.

So ultimately, this portion of Blair's work does not offer support for them observing Saturday, and instead offers support for them observing Sunday.

 

[trophy33]

This has been my experience as well. Modern Waldensians, for whatever it's worth, appear to observe Sunday.

However, the work being mentioned here is the one by Adam Blair (the original post incorrectly says Paul Blair, but Gary K does state the name correctly in subsequent posts), so let's look at it. It should be noted first that htis book was from the 1830's, and any book from nearly 200 years ago is going to be a bit out of date on scholarship. But even accepting the claims of the work as accurate, it really doesn't provide evidence the Waldensians observed Saturday. It is true that on page 220 it offers a summary of a commentary on the Ten Commandments by the Waldensians, and in it (as quoted in the opening post) says "Observation of the Sabbath, by ceasing from worldly labours and from sin, by good-works, and by promoting the edification of the soul through prayer and hearing the word, is enjoined."

The first question we have here, is what does he mean by Sabbath? This book was published back in the 1830's, and back then, "Sabbath" was often used to refer to Sunday with the belief that the Sabbath had been changed to Sunday--some still refer to Sunday as Sabbath today, but typically some kind of qualifier is added to avoid confusion. But at the time, simply using "Sabbath" would often be understood to mean Sunday. So, does Blair mean Saturday or Sunday when he says Sabbath there? Looking at usage of "Sabbath" elsewhere in his work, he is inconsistent--sometimes it is clearly used to refer to Saturday, sometimes clearly Sunday. Due to this, it's not clear whether he's saying they observed a Saturday Sabbath or a Sunday Sabbath.

However, the quote about them observing Sabbath wasn't the Waldensian document itself, but rather Blair's summary of it. What does the document itself say? A translation is offered in an appendix at the end of the work, so we can see what the original document (the commentary on the Ten Commandments) said. On page 527, the following is stated at the start of its section on the Fourth Commandment:

They that will keep and observe the Sabbath of Christians, that is to say, to sanctify the day of the Lord, must be careful of four things. The first is to cease from all earthly and worldly labours: the second, not to sin: the third, not to be idle in regard to good works: the fourth, to do those things that are for the benefit of the soul."

The qualification "of Christians" for Sabbath indicates Saturday is not in view. By itself this might not seal the deal, but it clarifies further with "that is to say, to sanctify the day of the Lord". "Day of the Lord" or "Lord's Day" is a term used to refer to Sunday (there is some argument about whether its usage in the earliest centuries AD referred to Sunday, but by this point it most certainly did). So this statement indicates that they viewed the Fourth Commandment as commanding rest on Sunday, not Saturday.

So ultimately, this portion of Blair's work does not offer support for them observing Saturday, and instead offers support for them observing Sunday.

Interesting, thanks for this contextual information about the quote/work.

 

[Gary K]

This has been my experience as well. Modern Waldensians, for whatever it's worth, appear to observe Sunday.

However, the work being mentioned here is the one by Adam Blair (the original post incorrectly says Paul Blair, but Gary K does state the name correctly in subsequent posts), so let's look at it. It should be noted first that htis book was from the 1830's, and any book from nearly 200 years ago is going to be a bit out of date on scholarship. But even accepting the claims of the work as accurate, it really doesn't provide evidence the Waldensians observed Saturday. It is true that on page 220 it offers a summary of a commentary on the Ten Commandments by the Waldensians, and in it (as quoted in the opening post) says "Observation of the Sabbath, by ceasing from worldly labours and from sin, by good-works, and by promoting the edification of the soul through prayer and hearing the word, is enjoined."

The first question we have here, is what does he mean by Sabbath? This book was published back in the 1830's, and back then, "Sabbath" was often used to refer to Sunday with the belief that the Sabbath had been changed to Sunday--some still refer to Sunday as Sabbath today, but typically some kind of qualifier is added to avoid confusion. But at the time, simply using "Sabbath" would often be understood to mean Sunday. So, does Blair mean Saturday or Sunday when he says Sabbath there? Looking at usage of "Sabbath" elsewhere in his work, he is inconsistent--sometimes it is clearly used to refer to Saturday, sometimes clearly Sunday. Due to this, it's not clear whether he's saying they observed a Saturday Sabbath or a Sunday Sabbath.

However, the quote about them observing Sabbath wasn't the Waldensian document itself, but rather Blair's summary of it. What does the document itself say? A translation is offered in an appendix at the end of the work, so we can see what the original document (the commentary on the Ten Commandments) said. On page 527, the following is stated at the start of its section on the Fourth Commandment:

They that will keep and observe the Sabbath of Christians, that is to say, to sanctify the day of the Lord, must be careful of four things. The first is to cease from all earthly and worldly labours: the second, not to sin: the third, not to be idle in regard to good works: the fourth, to do those things that are for the benefit of the soul."

The qualification "of Christians" for Sabbath indicates Saturday is not in view. By itself this might not seal the deal, but it clarifies further with "that is to say, to sanctify the day of the Lord". "Day of the Lord" or "Lord's Day" is a term used to refer to Sunday (there is some argument about whether its usage in the earliest centuries AD referred to Sunday, but by this point it most certainly did). So this statement indicates that they viewed the Fourth Commandment as commanding rest on Sunday, not Saturday.

So ultimately, this portion of Blair's work does not offer support for them observing Saturday, and instead offers support for them observing Sunday.

So. receiving the truth from the apostles who were all Jews doesn't mean anything to you?

 

[Gary K]

This has been my experience as well. Modern Waldensians, for whatever it's worth, appear to observe Sunday.

However, the work being mentioned here is the one by Adam Blair (the original post incorrectly says Paul Blair, but Gary K does state the name correctly in subsequent posts), so let's look at it. It should be noted first that htis book was from the 1830's, and any book from nearly 200 years ago is going to be a bit out of date on scholarship. But even accepting the claims of the work as accurate, it really doesn't provide evidence the Waldensians observed Saturday. It is true that on page 220 it offers a summary of a commentary on the Ten Commandments by the Waldensians, and in it (as quoted in the opening post) says "Observation of the Sabbath, by ceasing from worldly labours and from sin, by good-works, and by promoting the edification of the soul through prayer and hearing the word, is enjoined."

The first question we have here, is what does he mean by Sabbath? This book was published back in the 1830's, and back then, "Sabbath" was often used to refer to Sunday with the belief that the Sabbath had been changed to Sunday--some still refer to Sunday as Sabbath today, but typically some kind of qualifier is added to avoid confusion. But at the time, simply using "Sabbath" would often be understood to mean Sunday. So, does Blair mean Saturday or Sunday when he says Sabbath there? Looking at usage of "Sabbath" elsewhere in his work, he is inconsistent--sometimes it is clearly used to refer to Saturday, sometimes clearly Sunday. Due to this, it's not clear whether he's saying they observed a Saturday Sabbath or a Sunday Sabbath.

However, the quote about them observing Sabbath wasn't the Waldensian document itself, but rather Blair's summary of it. What does the document itself say? A translation is offered in an appendix at the end of the work, so we can see what the original document (the commentary on the Ten Commandments) said. On page 527, the following is stated at the start of its section on the Fourth Commandment:

They that will keep and observe the Sabbath of Christians, that is to say, to sanctify the day of the Lord, must be careful of four things. The first is to cease from all earthly and worldly labours: the second, not to sin: the third, not to be idle in regard to good works: the fourth, to do those things that are for the benefit of the soul."

The qualification "of Christians" for Sabbath indicates Saturday is not in view. By itself this might not seal the deal, but it clarifies further with "that is to say, to sanctify the day of the Lord". "Day of the Lord" or "Lord's Day" is a term used to refer to Sunday (there is some argument about whether its usage in the earliest centuries AD referred to Sunday, but by this point it most certainly did). So this statement indicates that they viewed the Fourth Commandment as commanding rest on Sunday, not Saturday.

So ultimately, this portion of Blair's work does not offer support for them observing Saturday, and instead offers support for them observing Sunday.

Compendium? Where? I noticed you didn't quote a single line of it. There is a long appendix at the end of volume one which includes an ancient commentary on the 10 commandments but no compendium.

 

[Gary K]

Here is the Waldensian Exposition on the 4th commandment.

AN EXPOSITION OF THE FOURTH COMMANDMENT.
" SOUVIENNE toy du jour du repos, &c. Remember the Sabbath-day, " &c.
They that will keep and observe the Sabbath of Christians, that is to say, to
sanctify the day of the Lord, must be careful of four things. The first is to
cease from all earthly and worldly labours : the second, not to sin : the third, not
to be idle in regard to good works : the fourth, to do those things that are for
the benefit of the soul.
Of the first it is said ; " Six days thou shalt labour and do all thy work : but
the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God ; in it thou shalt not do any
work." And in Exodus it is said ; " Ye shall keep the Sabbath therefore ; for
it is holy unto you : every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death."
And in Numbers we read that one of the children of Israel being seen to gather
sticks on the Sabbath-day, was brought to Moses, who, not knowing what course
to pursue in the matter, " the Lord said unto Moses ; The man shall be surely
put to death : all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with
stones, and he died." God wished that the Sabbath be kept with such reverence,
that the children of Israel would not dare, on that day, to gather the manna
which was given from heaven.
The second cause is, to preserve ourselves from sin, as it is said in Exodus :
" Remember the Sabbath-day to keep it holy ;" that is, that thou observe it by
keeping thyself carefully from sin ; and therefore saith Saint Augustine ; " It
is better to labour and to dig the earth on the Lord's day, than to be drunk, or
to commit any other sins ; for sin is a servile work, by which a man serves the
devil. "
Again, he says, that it is better to labour with profit, than to roam abroad in
idleness ; for the day of the Lord was not ordained to the end that a man should
cease from earthly good works, and give himself unto sin ; but to the end he
should addict himself to spiritual labours, which are better than earthly ; and
that the whole Sabbath throughout he reform himself of those sins he has com-
mitted ; for idleness teaches all evil. Seneca declares, “ it is the sepulchre of a
living man. "
The fourth thing is to do that which is profitable to the soul ; as to think on
God-devoutly to pray to him-diligently to hear his commandments and his
holy doctrine- to give thanks to God for all his benefits-to instruct the igno-
rant-to correct the erroneous, and to preserve ourselves from all sin ; to the
end that saying of Esay may be accomplished : " Cease to do evil : learn to do
well ;" for rest is not good if it be not accompanied with good works.

 

[SuperCow]

Nope. Everyone around can see who we are by what we believe. You believe in keeping Sunday. I believe in keeping the Sabbath. So everyone lives out what they believe. myst33 believes in evolution so he doesn't have the same moral base we do and it shows in his posting habits.

You proved my point. You made a judgement call about what I believe and you were wrong. I don't believe in keeping Sunday, and other posts I have made here have been in support of Saturday being the true sabbath. I also think the passover should be observed on the proper day as well, and have nothing to do with rabbits, eggs or chocolate.

That being said, I don't agree with judging someone's moral code outright, and if his moral code is deemed wrong, I still don't try to assume his motivations behind every post when it is obvious that multiple conclusions can be reached.

 

[Gary K]

You proved my point. You made a judgement call about what I believe and you were wrong. I don't believe in keeping Sunday, and other posts I have made here have been in support of Saturday being the true sabbath. I also think the passover should be observed on the proper day as well, and have nothing to do with rabbits, eggs or chocolate.

That being said, I don't agree with judging someone's moral code outright, and if his moral code is deemed wrong, I still don't try to assume his motivations behind every post when it is obvious that multiple conclusions can be reached.

Only because I didn't know you. If I had known you at all by your posting history I would have never made that mistake.

 

[SuperCow]

Only because I didn't know you. If I had known you at all by your posting history I would have never made that mistake.

Nevertheless, my initial objection was this comment "Are you calling the author a liar?", which is an unwarranted accusation and does nothing to push the narrative forward.

 

[HARK!]

MOD HAT ON

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT

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