The wages of sin is DEATH, not eternal torment in Hell.

[Der Alte]

Nice try.

καὶ μὴ φοβηθῆτε ἀπὸ τῶν ἀποκτεινόντων τὸ σῶμα, τὴν δὲ ψυχὴν μὴ δυνάμενων ἀποκτεῖναι· φοβεῖσθε δὲ μᾶλλον τὸν δυνάμενον καὶ ψυχὴν καὶ σῶμα ἀπολέσαι ἐν γεέννῃ.

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

You are correct the word that appears in that verse is [SIZE="+1"]ἀπολέσαι[/SIZE] which according to Strong's is a form of apollumi, but not apoleia which I was discussing.

So Jesus did not believe that body and soul would remain undestroyed forever in hell, He believed that body and soul would be destroyed in Gehenna. So either Jesus Christ, the Son of God, Very God of Very God, Begotten not made - is wrong...

Or you are.

I wasn't discussing this verse. As I have said before what God has created He can destroy but I ask my question again. How many souls are said to be or have been [SIZE="+1"]ἀπολέσαι[/SIZE] in hell. Please cite the scripture.

And my discussion of [size=+1]απώλεια[/size]/apoleia remains unaddressed.

 

[Der Alte]

Big differance? Technically, here are all the meanings of the word if you know any Greek so why do you refuse to recognize destruction. Wastage is destruction!

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]G684 απώλεια, perdition; destruction, annihilation[/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif], [/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]casualty, wastage, bereavement, deprivation, loss wastage[/FONT][/FONT]

I don't refuse to see anything. I think I even highlighted destruction when I posted the defintion from BAG. But you keep repeating "destruction" without acknowledging that is only one of the definitions.

 

[Raimi Stranger]

[SIZE=+1]απώλεια means destruction.[/SIZE]

the bible says all saints and Jesus were destroyed ['apoleia'] in crucifixion ... clearly they survived , so it is your misundertanding of the meaning that is your problem in understanding the scripture ...

 

[Der Alte]

How does "Roman execution" prove that apoleia does not really mean destruction? It seems like you are really stretching, you aren't helping you case. You should just admit that apoleia often does mean destruction.

The word is sometimes translated in English as "destruction", while the same word is used for Roman execution, etc. I did not say that the verses I posted "prove" that απώλεια does not mean destruction, but since the same word is used for Roman execution, and "sons of destruction." etc. it is clear that the word does not necessarily mean what you want it to.

 

[Raimi Stranger]

You folks are still arguing , yet without all Truth from God in spirit baptism you cannot be saved ... so one has to ask why you do not know this and why you are being so foolish ... spirit baptism is the seal against those still sinning entering the kingdom of God... if not born of spirit to know all Truth one cannot be saved until after death removes one's sin one never gave up in this life....never fully repented

 

[shturt678]

You folks are still arguing , yet without all Truth from God in spirit baptism you cannot be saved ... so one has to ask why you do not know this and why you are being so foolish ... spirit baptism is the seal against those still sinning entering the kingdom of God... if not born of spirit to know all Truth one cannot be saved until after death removes one's sin one never gave up in this life....never fully repented

I'm sure you meant ".....in water baptismal rebirth you cannot be saved..."? ? ? We all make mistakes and understandable.

 

[he-man]

The word I was discussing was [SIZE=+1]απώλεια[/SIZE]/apoleia not [SIZE=+1]ἀπολέσαι[/SIZE]/apolesai. And as I said apoleia is used for wasted ointment, Mat 26:8, In none of these verses is apoleai translated “lose.”

ap&#333;leia from a presumed derivative of <G622> (apollumi); ruin or loss

The word translated destroy in Mat 2:13 is apolesai not apoleia.

The word translated destroy in Mat 2:13 is
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Greek Strong's Number: 622[/FONT]
Greek Word: &#7936;&#960;&#8057;&#955;&#955;&#965;&#956;&#953;
Transliteration: apollymi from <G575> (apo) and the base of <G3639> (olethros); to destroy fully (reflexive to perish, or lose), literal or figurative :- destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

The word translated ruin in Mat 26:8 is

Greek Word: &#7936;&#960;&#8061;&#955;&#949;&#953;&#945;
Transliteration: ap&#333;leia from a presumed derivative of <G622> (apollumi); ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal) :- damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, × perish, pernicious ways, waste.
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

Did Somebody have had a hard day?

 

[Der Alte]

ap&#333;leia from a presumed derivative of <G622> (apollumi); ruin or loss
The word translated destroy in Mat 2:13 is
Greek Strong's Number: 622
Greek Word: &#7936;&#960;&#8057;&#955;&#955;&#965;&#956;&#953;
Transliteration: apollymi from <G575> (apo) and the base of <G3639> (olethros); to destroy fully (reflexive to perish, or lose), literal or figurative :- destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

The word translated ruin in Mat 26:8 is

Greek Word: &#7936;&#960;&#8061;&#955;&#949;&#953;&#945;
Transliteration: ap&#333;leia from a presumed derivative of <G622> (apollumi); ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal) :- damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, × perish, pernicious ways, waste.
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

Did Somebody have had a hard day?

Don't know. Did you? Unlike Strong's which has been shown to have about 15,000 errors or omissions. BAG does not mention a presumed derivation. Feel free to review the lexical entry I posted previously.

 

[Timothew]

The word is sometimes translated in English as "destruction", while the same word is used for Roman execution, etc. I did not say that the verses I posted "prove" that &#945;&#960;&#974;&#955;&#949;&#953;&#945; does not mean destruction, but since the same word is used for Roman execution, and "sons of destruction." etc. it is clear that the word does not necessarily mean what you want it to.

Since the same word is used for Roman execution, which does not mean eternal life in hell, but execution, clearly the word does mean what I think it means. Destruction of the person so that they are no longer alive and conscious. What do you think happens after an execution? Does everyone (including the person who was executed) get together for iced tea and cake?

 

[Timothew]

How many souls are said to be or have been [SIZE=+1]&#7936;&#960;&#959;&#955;&#941;&#963;&#945;&#953;[/SIZE] in hell. Please cite the scripture.

Ezekiel 18:3 is one example, or course there are many.
The soul who sins shall die.

Matthew 10:28
Beware of the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna.

2 Thess 1:9
The pay the penalty of eternal destruction

Jude
The destruction of S&G is an example of the coming destruction

Also please understand that the destruction of the unrepentant is a FUTURE event, it doesn't make much sense to ask how many souls have already been destroyed when the destruction is a future event, it will happen at the last judgment.

 

[Der Alte]

Ezekiel 18:3 is one example, or course there are many.
The soul who sins shall die.

Die! Not destroyed.

Matthew 10:28
Beware of the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna.

This does not describe a soul in hell actually being destroyed.

2 Thess 1:9
The pay the penalty of eternal destruction

Selective, out-of-context quoting.

2 Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;​

What does the phrase "from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power" mean?

Jude
The destruction of S&G is an example of the coming destruction

I agree but S&G was not annihilated when God "destroyed" it in the time of Abraham. They still have to face the judgment.

Also please understand that the destruction of the unrepentant is a FUTURE event, it doesn't make much sense to ask how many souls have already been destroyed when the destruction is a future event, it will happen at the last judgment.

Doesn't Revelation mention a lot of future events as if they were past?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Also please understand that the destruction of the unrepentant is a FUTURE event, it doesn't make much sense to ask how many souls have already been destroyed when the destruction is a future event, it will happen at the last judgment.

To clarify I believe the belief being represented here is that after one dies, that "soul" no longer exists. An important distinction that needs to be understood when discussing this with those holding traditional views.

 

[Der Alte]

Since the same word is used for Roman execution, which does not mean eternal life in hell, but execution, clearly the word does mean what I think it means. Destruction of the person so that they are no longer alive and conscious. What do you think happens after an execution? Does everyone (including the person who was executed) get together for iced tea and cake?

Are you trying to claim that when a wineskin breaks, wine is spilled, food spoils, men are murdered, men drown, someone thinks they are perishing from hunger, etc. that is identical with the supposed perishing or destruction you claim occurs at the judgment?

 

[Raimi Stranger]

Why do you keep arguing ignoring Jesus/ way of resolving all things by God's ONE Truth promised to all eventually {Joel 2:28] ? - do you think that you know better than Jesus and God ?:-

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

 

[Raimi Stranger]

Ezekiel 18:3 is one example, or course there are many.
The soul who sins shall die.

Death has no sting my friend. Jesus reveals that all souls are resurrected from sleep in hell - Rev 20:13

1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

death is simply the wages of sin to remove sin in resurrection of all souls dfreed of sin -Romans 6:7

Matthew 10:28
Beware of the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna.

Jesus body and soul [physical life] were destroyed [apoleia] in crucifixion according to scripture, you are reading more into the meaning of the word than it has in the original... we know the many are destroyed [Matt 7:13] but that then later countless many are saved [Rev 7:9-10. so the scripture explains to you your misunderstanding because of your taking the translation too far on basis of misunderstanding apoleia whose meaning you shoiuld get from scriptuire., not from your interpretation of 'destruction'

Jesus states that all creation will accept him as king, that is not possible if you were right... so you set yourself against Jesus simply by misunderstanding one word whose meaning the rest of scripture explains... this is not wisdom my friend...

2 Thess 1:9
The pay the penalty of eternal destruction

there is no destruction of God possible , the spirit of a man is of God and always returns to god who gave it ... the soul and body is created and re-created as necessary from the immortal spirit which is God ... so destruction of the body and physical life [soul] is simply reversed in resurrection of every singele soul from hell as Jesus states -Rev 20:13 - so why do you not believe what Jesus states ?

Jude
The destruction of S&G is an example of the coming destruction

my friend, God destroys this whole universe after mankind destroys the viability of this earth with sin ... but creates a new earth and heavens simply by saying let it be.... ALL souls are re-created from the spirit, Jesus says so... destruction of the physical signifies nothing much, it came form nothing and time ensures it ends as nothing... only God, the spirit, is immortal, unending, non-physical, but CREATOR of worlds and re-creator of all souls as Jesus states Rev 20:13

Also please understand that the destruction of the unrepentant is a FUTURE event, it doesn't make much sense to ask how many souls have already been destroyed when the destruction is a future event, it will happen at the last judgment.

the bible says NOTHING of any FINAL judgement, but of progressive judgements by God of who is ready to Love and has proved their Love in life, gibing up sin, and who must yet return to life to LEARN that Love si the only way out of life, to cease being a soul and become spirit one with God not needing to return to physical life ...

salvation is in stages in the bible , each stage ends with a judgement of who ois ready for translation to spirit free of death and who needs must return to life... the last judgement required is after the final baptism of fire [trial of Love] in the lake of fire, then everyone has accepted Jesus' ryle by love in the new earth and heavens and all can be translated to spirit free of the physical...

so note that God made a judgement on Jesus that he did not sin so is worthy of translation to spirit, then again the FEW are judged worthy at Jesus' return, then again countless many are judged worthy later -Rev 7:9-10] at the great white throne judgement because the kingdom come inspires billions to Love under Jesus finally ruling as king and the few ruling under him as immortal king-priests of God in the new earth minister to billions in the progressive salvation of all creation

so the mercy of God does not ed with this life and the soul can be re-created from the immortal spiirit of God who will create a new universe to finish His work of convincing all creation to be ONE, just as God si ONE ...

God has said noine can stop Him doing all His pleasure, His pleasure is stated as being that all the wicked will turn to Love... why do yo doubt God's word on this ?... have you not read it? [and if not then why do you speak against it without knwoing what it is?]

why would God resurrect all souls [Rev 20:13] if they were finally judged worthy of no resurrection in this life... your idea makes no sense , read the scripture, there is no end to Jesus' government increasing Love , no end to God's mercy BEYOND judgement ... yo really need to read all the scripture BEFORE deciding what the words mean... before even deciding how to know all Truth [because Jesus promises all Truth from God and God promises it to ALL men... what you claim would deny most men that Truth, so you must be wrong....

 

[he-man]

Don't know. Did you? Unlike Strong's which has been shown to have about 15,000 errors or omissions. BAG does not mention a presumed derivation. Feel free to review the lexical entry I posted previously.

Don't know. Did you? Unlike Strong's which has been shown to have about 15,000 errors or omissions. BAG does not mention a presumed derivation. Feel free to review the lexical entry I posted previously.

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction. apo&#772;leia &#7936;&#960;&#8061;&#955;&#949;&#953;&#945;Thayer Definition:
1) destroying, utter destruction
1a) of vessels
2) a perishing, ruin, destruction perdition, 8 times Joh_17:12, Phi_1:28, 2Th_2:3, 1Ti_6:9, Heb_10:39, 2Pe_3:7 Rev_17:8, Rev_17:11 destruction, 5 Mat_7:13, Rom_9:22, Phi_3:19, 2Pe_2:1, 2Pe_3:16 waste, 2 Mat_26:8, Mar_14:4 damnable, 1 2Pe_2:1 damnation, 1 2Pe_2:3 die, 1 Act_25:16 perish, 1
Act_8:20 pernicious, 1 2Pe_2:2 ways, 1 2Pe_2:2

Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction <G684>, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Philippians 3:19
Whose end is destruction,.... Everlasting destruction, the destruction of both body and soul in hell, Mat_10:28; and this is the end, the reward and issue of bad principles and practices; the broad roads of sin and error lead to destruction, Mat_7:13;

however pleasing such ways may be to men, the end of them is eternal death; destruction and misery are in all the ways of profaneness and heresy; not only immoralities, but heresies, such as strike at the efficacy of Christ's cross, his blood, righteousness, and sacrifice, are damnable ones, and bring upon men swift destruction, 2Pe_2:1; [GILL]

Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost <G622> sheep of the house of Israel.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy <G622> both soul and body in hell

Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose <G622> it: and he that loseth <G622> his life for my sake shall find it.
Mat 12:14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy <G622> him

 

[Raimi Stranger]

stop being so foolish about a word that the REST of scripture explains the meaning of... many saints were crucified , which is described in scripture as 'apoleia', 'destruction' , and we KNOW that they and Jesus SURVIVE this destruction... so stop being perverse, listen to God's |truth in scripture and forget this senseless ego battle of deceits of self and others...

you COULD all learn from God the whole Truth if you but obeyed Jesus and Loved instead of sinning your life away to wages of death to remove all sin... much easier to learn from God that this absurdly useless way of proceeding which is NOT the way Jesus died to bring you! ...

 

[he-man]

stop being so foolish about a word that the REST of scripture explains the meaning of... many saints were crucified , which is described in scripture as 'apoleia', 'destruction' , and we KNOW that they and Jesus SURVIVE this destruction... so stop being perverse, listen to God's |truth in scripture and forget this senseless ego battle of deceits of self and others...

you COULD all learn from God the whole Truth if you but obeyed Jesus and Loved instead of sinning your life away to wages of death to remove all sin... much easier to learn from God that this absurdly useless way of proceeding which is NOT the way Jesus died to bring you! ...

Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

– John 7:17 (NIV)​

 

[Der Alte]

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction. apo&#772;leia &#7936;&#960;&#8061;&#955;&#949;&#953;&#945;Thayer Definition:
1) destroying, utter destruction
1a) of vessels
2) a perishing, ruin, destruction perdition, 8 times Joh_17:12, Phi_1:28, 2Th_2:3, 1Ti_6:9, Heb_10:39, 2Pe_3:7 Rev_17:8, Rev_17:11 destruction, 5 Mat_7:13, Rom_9:22, Phi_3:19, 2Pe_2:1, 2Pe_3:16 waste, 2 Mat_26:8, Mar_14:4 damnable, 1 2Pe_2:1 damnation, 1 2Pe_2:3 die, 1 Act_25:16 perish, 1
Act_8:20 pernicious, 1 2Pe_2:2 ways, 1 2Pe_2:2

Very interesting but note how it does not in any way address my post which you quoted. A number of these do not mean the annihilaton which, according to some, occurs at the final judgment. See e.g. "waste, 2 Mat_26:8, Mar_14:4 " The disciples are saying the ointment which was used to anoint Jesus was [SIZE="+1"]&#7936;&#960;&#8061;&#955;&#949;&#953;&#945;[/SIZE] instead of being sold and the money given to the poor. The ointment was not annihilated.

Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction <G684>, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Philippians 3:19
Whose end is destruction,.... Everlasting destruction, the destruction of both body and soul in hell, Mat_10:28; and this is the end, the reward and issue of bad principles and practices; the broad roads of sin and error lead to destruction, Mat_7:13;

however pleasing such ways may be to men, the end of them is eternal death; destruction and misery are in all the ways of profaneness and heresy; not only immoralities, but heresies, such as strike at the efficacy of Christ's cross, his blood, righteousness, and sacrifice, are damnable ones, and bring upon men swift destruction, 2Pe_2:1; [GILL]

According to my copy of Gill.

Gill-2Pe 2:1 and bring upon themselves swift destruction; either in this life, being suddenly cut off in the midst of their days, and by the immediate hand of God, as Arius and other heretics have been; or eternal damnation in the other, which their tenets lead unto, and which will swiftly come upon them when they are promising themselves peace and safety.​

Also see Gill Matt 25:46, below.

Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost <G622> sheep of the house of Israel.

The lost sheep were still alive, not annihilated.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy <G622> both soul and body in hell

Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose <G622> it: and he that loseth <G622> his life for my sake shall find it.
Mat 12:14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy <G622> him

The Pharisees could not annihilate Jesus, in the same sense that people supposedly are in the final judgement.

Gill- Mat 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment,.... Their excuses will not be regarded, their pleas will be of no avail, their pretensions to interest in Christ, and love to him, will be set aside; the sentence will remain irrevocable, and there will be no appeal from it, for there is no higher tribunal to bring the cause before; judgment having passed, the execution of it immediately follows: these goats, or formal professors, shall be obliged, whether they will or not, to depart from the presence of Christ; the angels will be ordered to take and cast them into everlasting burnings; they will be driven by them into hell, the place appointed for them; where they shall endure [SIZE="+1"]&#1506;&#1493;&#1504;&#1513; &#1504;&#1510;&#1495;&#1497;[/SIZE] "everlasting punishment", as the Jews (p) also express it; and that both in soul and body, as the just desert of sin; which being committed against an infinite God, cannot be satisfied for by a finite creature; who therefore must ever bear the punishment of it, because its pollution and guilt will always remain:​

 

[Timothew]

To clarify I believe the belief being represented here is that after one dies, that "soul" no longer exists. An important distinction that needs to be understood when discussing this with those holding traditional views.

You are right, there are not many who are holding a biblical view, the view that the wicked will be no more. Psalm 37:10

Most religious people hold the greek view, that part of a person stays alive while the other part dies.

I hold the Biblical view.