The Violent Take it By Force

Jason0047 said:

believers in God who will act violently on behalf of God as a part of their thinking that they are doing God a service

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I wonder if we're coming up on this in the U.S. and if this phenomenon usually occurs just before the decline (or total collapse) of that society.

Tree of Life said:

It is important to recognize this inward struggle. We don't merely battle against flesh and blood enemies. Our greatest enemies are spiritual and even germane to our own person.

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If you are interested, there is a movie I recently watched called "Heaven's War" that really portrays how we are in a spiritual battle. It really was a good movie that points to Jesus Christ as the way of salvation.


A movie that I found interesting that loosely pertains to the topic of this thread is "Hacksaw Ridge." I believe it shows what Jesus desires us to do (Which is contrary to those who are violent who try to take the Kingdom of God by force).

Tree of Life said:

You'd make a good anabaptist.

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Well, just so that there is no confusion about what I believe: I am not against the paying of government taxes; Nor am I against the police, or the army. The army and the police play a different role in God's greater plan for good than the life of a Christian.

Tree of Life said:

Maybe you wouldn't make a good anabaptist after all.

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Did you see these two films? They are very excellent. Well, I like Heaven's War the best because it points to Jesus Christ as the way of salvation and it shows how we are in a spiritual war involving the souls of men.

Tone said:

I wonder if we're coming up on this in the U.S. and if this phenomenon usually occurs just before the decline (or total collapse) of that society.

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Perhaps. All I know is that if I was in that situation, I would strive to pray, love them, and do good towards them even if they were attempting to kill me.

Matthew 25:31-46
"But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will tell those on his right hand, ‘Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry, and you gave me food to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me drink. I was a stranger, and you took me in. I was naked, and you clothed me. I was sick, and you visited me. I was in prison, and you came to me.’

“Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, and feed you; or thirsty, and give you a drink? When did we see you as a stranger, and take you in; or naked, and clothe you? When did we see you sick, or in prison, and come to you?’

“The King will answer them, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ Then he will say also to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you didn’t give me food to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink; I was a stranger, and you didn’t take me in; naked, and you didn’t clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’

“Then they will also answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn’t help you?’

“Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Most certainly I tell you, because you didn’t do it to one of the least of these, you didn’t do it to me.’ These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

I think if the righteous were to be described in terms of the OP it would be something more like this:

"The kingdom spreads peace and the peaceful giveth freely"

But the goats of the enemy's kingdom take the sheep's food, drink, homes, clothes, health, freedom, and, thus their lives...which is very violent.

Tree of Life said:

Hacksaw Ridge wasn't bad. I've yet to see a Christian film that I thought was any good.

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Then I would recommend checking out my top favorite Christian films in this CF thread here:

What Christian Movies Do You Find To Be The Most Rewatchable?

Side Note:

Please take note that the movie called "Finding Normal" is probably a film you will not like and it is the weakest film on my list of favorites. It is more of a popcorn Christian film. It has it's problems, but I enjoyed it for various reasons. The other films on my list I think are really solid and the majority of them point to Jesus Christ. Heaven's War is not a cinematic masterpiece, but it has descent special effects, great lines, and is very entertaining (keeping you on the edge of your seat). I enjoyed Heaven's War more after I watched it a second time when my wife wanted to see the film.

Then there's Matthew 10:32-36
“Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household."

I think this is just a natural result of the light entering the world...the darkness hates the light and will do violence to those who shine.

Jason0047 said:

But you implied that the King James has mistakes in it. Do you not regard the KJV as the Word of God?

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Choice of words in translating from language to language do not render the Bible, or greater yet, God's Word...which is eternal, inaccurate. It is my belief that the Holy Spirit teaches us all things...see I John 2:27. Meanings of words come out in context and Scripture to Scripture comparisons. I said KJV has archaic language and you should be able to identify this usage here...it's why you flagged it as a topic of discussion.

Probably the ones rejected..they will probably speak against God or something and try to force their way in?I don't know

Tree of Life said:

The phrase in question occurs in the middle of a point that Jesus is making about John being a prophet. Jesus says that John was no shaky reed or man of luxury. Rather, he was a prophet and more than a prophet. He was the greatest prophet. He was Elijah who was to come. And just like all the OT prophets John suffered violence.

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Yes, Jesus suffered violence, but there was no violence in Him. Believe you are not fully giving us your view of the last part of vs 12...violent men are entering in. Jesus did not enter into the His heaven via violence...not by today's meaning of violence.

I believe we all must be more critical in our reading and responding. The point of what is the Kingdom of Heaven needs to be identified and an attempt to agree on that before we can accurately define what "violent men" who are entering really means. Sounds like a free for all with not explanations!

The violent try to take it, the greedy try to buy it, the prideful try to work for it, the humble accept it as it is freely given.

The Kingdom is Messiah in us, the Ruach ha Kodesh (Holy Breath of Yah).

Tone said:

The violent try to take it, the greedy try to buy it, the prideful try to work for it, the humble accept it as it is freely given.

The Kingdom is Messiah in us, the Ruach ha Kodesh (Holy Breath of Yah).

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If the Kingdom is Messiah within us then how can it be said by Jesus that "forceful [also stated here by some, violent] men are entering. ?

Tree of Life said:

Some options that have historically been presented:

1. The Kingdom is forcefully breaking into the present age.
2. Violent men like the zealots try to advance the Kingdom by force.
3. Needy souls force their way into the doors of the Kingdom.
4. The Kingdom is persecuted in the present age. It suffers violence from violent, unbelieving men.

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I've wondered, and it's even come to mind at times, because of the intuitive and just reading and hearing way I've tried to hear it, where it seems to me to mean that now that the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven have been revealed to any who would simply listen to Christ and believe Him and then do what He says to do as He say will get you into heaven, that even the 'violent' (meaning not physically really, or only physically, but more in a natural reading it seems to me to mean...emotionally (trying to get a word that communicates it.... hmm...hard to get the synonym..)...or...'forceful' in the sense of 'forceful personality' as we say in America; that is, not meek. instead of the 'meek' or the 'humble', the 'lowly in spirit', only, instead even the 'violent' can force their way in, by relying on His words and following them (instead of ignoring most of them!!), that is, the not-meek, and the not that lowly in attitude or....ways of interacting. This is what came to mind as I've read it before. Zealots is one instance, but not all. The forceful, who aren't yet all the way to true humility, or perhaps even the possibility of those who are humble enough, yet are too forceful in their interactions, not really going all the way into being the lowly servant in their attitude. I even wonder if it would include for instance the person that talks too much, in person. Not yielding space for others to say anything much. Isn't that 'violent'?