The Vatican says washing machines have done more for women than the pill.

[Robbie_James_Francis]

In the Vatican's defence, chances are they've probably only just heard of the washing machine. In fact, I'm impressed at how quickly the news has travelled that high up the hierarchy. They stopped blaming the entire Jewish race for the death of Jesus in 1965. They admitted Galileo was right in 1992. Only 50-odd years behind the rest of the world is the closest the Catholic Church has been in a long time...maybe they're starting to catch up?

 

[Chajara]

BC is not liberating. The ball and chain called Lust becomes all the more heavier. You are just confining yourself more and more to lust. And then when you get a STD or HIV "liberation" then eventually becomes death and damnation.

Sex between married couples is not lust. Even if they do it 5 times a day, in 25 different positions, in 100% of the rooms in their house. If they have the time and energy to devote to that particular activity and it's not at the expense of other responsibilities, then let them have at it. Also, the chances of getting an STD are remote and pretty much nil if you are in a monogamous relationship.

The pill does not make you sleep with more than one partner. I'm going to say it again in case it doesn't sink in, which I suspect it won't since you've been told this in threads before. The birth control pill, or any other type of contraceptive, will not make someone who is not inclined toward promiscuity promiscuous.

Thats funny, cause I see alot of middle and even lower class households with just the Father as the worker. I myself am middle class. Good way of putting words in my mouth.

But like I said, I don't find hedonism and genocide liberation. Anyone who considers abortion truly liberating is sick in the head and has a MAJOR character flaw.

What color is the sky on that planet? I'd love to visit there, because here on earth and particularly in Milwaukee there are less and less jobs, less and less funding for schools and education, and less and less of a future. The cost of living goes up up up and yet pay reductions and layoffs are no longer the exception, but the rule. My boyfriend and I have no children, we both work full time, and we are still under the poverty line. And that is a fact. If I were to fall pregnant right now we'd have to look to family to support us, and my mother is already supporting my brother who does have kids and due to layoffs cannot afford his mortgage. He went and joined the army to make ends meet and his wife, who was always at home with the kids, had to work for quite some time for the extra cash.

I want to know how you do it. How many mouths are you feeding? How much do you earn, and how much goes to grocery bills? How about health insurance? Car insurance? Clothing? How much do you spend on luxuries? Obviously you're able to shell out for internet, so you must be weathering this financial storm pretty well considering how many children you must have.

How bout you say that sentence again and then take a good look at our current 21st generation. Have you even seen the lives and state of most 18-30 year olds in college? Lets not even bring up college. Just in general.

Well yeah, when you have high schools that don't do a thing to prepare you for actual adult life combined with the whole "You're worthless without a college degree" mantra, you've got everyone taking out massive amounts of loans, going to college, and then continuing to party it up without realizing how much money they're frittering away on that english degree that will never result in a decent job. Kids these days go to college without actually knowing what the hell they even want to do, simply because everyone tells them you have to enter college as soon as you possibly can or you'll never ever be employable ever. I did it! My boyfriend did it! Thank God he figured it out before he graduated. If I had stayed in school I'd have realized just before graduation that instead of wanting to teach, I want to go into conservation science, forestry, ornithology, or some other form of life science. People need to get out and work for a couple of years and learn the actual value of money before entering college, perhaps then they'll be less likely to party it up while their grades slip.

But then again now there's no jobs anyway so it's a moot point.

 

[gwenmead]

So it is sexually liberating not socially liberating?

I think birth control is sexually liberating for women, yes. The social impact is a bit more complicated and I'll have to consider before I give an answer.

For clarification, what would "socially liberating" mean to you? (Or "sexually liberating", for that matter?)

Would you consider the condom to be just as liberating for women, since it serves a similiar function?

I do, yes. I consider all forms of birth control to be liberating for women, inasmuch as they reduce the risk of unwanted pregnancy.

Men have never had to worry about becoming pregnant. They have had to worry about whether or not their female partners can, but the issue does not literally live in their bodies. Birth control levels the playing field, so to speak, allowing women the choice to have sex for pleasure alone, if we so desire, as men have always had.

Ultimately I think the available choice is the more liberating thing. Birth control just makes sexual choices more available to women.

Or at least that's what I think after a busy day, with thoughts disorganized and distracted...

 

[CreedIsChrist]

Sex between married couples is not lust. Even if they do it 5 times a day, in 25 different positions, in 100% of the rooms in their house. If they have the time and energy to devote to that particular activity and it's not at the expense of other responsibilities, then let them have at it. Also, the chances of getting an STD are remote and pretty much nil if you are in a monogamous relationship.

Thats fine for them, if they want to delve into an intrinsic evil that shuts out God then that is they're decision. However we must look at the statistics, considering almost half of all abortions happen with women who are already in birth control.

When birth control was released illegitimate births increased sevenfold and increased the pregnancy rate by 25%. Legitimate birth rate was cut in half. That is why you see allot of women who use birth control had illegitimate Pregnancies/children born out of wedlock.

The pill does not make you sleep with more than one partner. I'm going to say it again in case it doesn't sink in, which I suspect it won't since you've been told this in threads before. The birth control pill, or any other type of contraceptive, will not make someone who is not inclined toward promiscuity promiscuous.

again look at the charts. When the pill was released promiscuity sharply was raised.


In 1960, 5 percent of all pregnancies occured to unmarried mothers. By 1999, percentage rose to 33. One in every three children born in America is born to unwed mother. In 1970 it was 10.7 percent and 1980, 18.4 percent and 1990, it was 28 percent. Latest CDC stat on birth to unmarried women stands at 36.9 percent, ie 1,527,034.
Contrary to conventional notion that most illegitimate children are not being born to teen mothers. Over the past four decades age of unmarried mother giving birth has risen from teen girls to twenties and now in thirties. Also it moved beyond black poor girls to well-to-do white and other migrant groups. See detailed stat by race from 1970 thro 2004 on unmarried childbirths in US.
Birth control revolution that was supposed to prevent unwanted pregnancies and allow peopple freely engage in sex without any fear. Inceasingly sex-driven popular culture and anti-marriage sentiment prevalent in America today has taken any stigma out of free format sexual activity. Growing promiscuity, Cohabitation etc are only making this problem worse. But all of it is not without any consequence as many would like to believe.
The term illegitimate children are no more in use and is considered oppressive. Out of wedlock childbirth is the more trendy usage these days. No matter how well we sugarcoat such bitter social experimentation or legislate new policies by the government, this moral crisis cannot be easily resolved. Personal sexual ethics have a larger social, cultural and political consequences. Unless we address the core moral crisis in America, nothing else we do will matter much!

What color is the sky on that planet? I'd love to visit there, because here on earth and particularly in Milwaukee there are less and less jobs, less and less funding for schools and education, and less and less of a future. The cost of living goes up up up and yet pay reductions and layoffs are no longer the exception, but the rule. My boyfriend and I have no children, we both work full time, and we are still under the poverty line. And that is a fact. If I were to fall pregnant right now we'd have to look to family to support us, and my mother is already supporting my brother who does have kids and due to layoffs cannot afford his mortgage. He went and joined the army to make ends meet and his wife, who was always at home with the kids, had to work for quite some time for the extra cash.

these are personal problems that adults have to be responsible enough to work out. If the birth control crutch fails you will be in an unprepared position.

I want to know how you do it. How many mouths are you feeding? How much do you earn, and how much goes to grocery bills? How about health insurance? Car insurance? Clothing? How much do you spend on luxuries? Obviously you're able to shell out for internet, so you must be weathering this financial storm pretty well considering how many children you must have.

actually no, me and my wife are foster parents for your information. I work full time and do fine. We pay under 1k a month for our mortgage because we bought a foreclosure. We aren't concerned with luxuries and only spend when we really need too.

Well yeah, when you have high schools that don't do a thing to prepare you for actual adult life combined with the whole "You're worthless without a college degree" mantra, you've got everyone taking out massive amounts of loans, going to college, and then continuing to party it up without realizing how much money they're frittering away on that english degree that will never result in a decent job. Kids these days go to college without actually knowing what the hell they even want to do, simply because everyone tells them you have to enter college as soon as you possibly can or you'll never ever be employable ever. I did it! My boyfriend did it! Thank God he figured it out before he graduated. If I had stayed in school I'd have realized just before graduation that instead of wanting to teach, I want to go into conservation science, forestry, ornithology, or some other form of life science. People need to get out and work for a couple of years and learn the actual value of money before entering college, perhaps then they'll be less likely to party it up while their grades slip.

That really all depends on how the parents(not the school) prepares they're children. Since schools are doing a horrible job and kids have to worry about being shot when they go they are turning more to they're parents for guidance, not a burnt out public teacher. Ever notice how family businesses , when the stick together, tend to be successful? Parents today are too concerned with waiting eagerly until they're child is 18 and then throwing them out immediately. Thats not how you raise children, its not supposed to be treated like a job, but rather a gift from God that you are blessed with.

 

[GhostSlug]

Thats fine for them, if they want to delve into an intrinsic evil that shuts out God then that is they're decision. However we must look at the statistics, considering almost half of all abortions happen with women who are already in birth control.

How does birth control shut out God?

When birth control was released illegitimate births increased sevenfold and increased the pregnancy rate by 25%. Legitimate birth rate was cut in half. That is why you see allot of women who use birth control had illegitimate Pregnancies/children born out of wedlock.

After having a look at your charts, it made me think, "when were birth control pills first introduced"? The answer is in the early 1960s. What does that have to do with 1994? The charts you used, were they adjusted for the population difference between 1940 and 1994?

If you take a little time and calculate the percent increase of illegitimate births for 1940 and 1994, there is only a 0.6% difference when you take into account the different population sizes (1940 pop. was 132,122,446 and 1994 pop. was 260,327,021). That is not a big change considering the 54 year time span. Charts can be very deceiving, which is why so many people try to use them to sway people to their side of something.

In 1960, 5 percent of all pregnancies occured to unmarried mothers. By 1999, percentage rose to 33. One in every three children born in America is born to unwed mother. In 1970 it was 10.7 percent and 1980, 18.4 percent and 1990, it was 28 percent. Latest CDC stat on birth to unmarried women stands at 36.9 percent, ie 1,527,034.

One thing these statistics ignore are the cultural changes that have occured between 1960 and 1999. In the past, women who became pregnant were often forced to marry the father. The stigma of having a child out of wedlock was possibly strong enough to sway the census, i.e., woman gets pregnant and is wed at about 2-3 months into the pregnancy, therefore when the baby is born she is no longer an unwed mother.

In the 1990's, women are not bound by the strict societal constraints on having to be married to have a baby. A woman with a strong financial background could easily get a sperm donor and start a family without having to be married, thus technically making her an "unwed" mother.

Another factor that is not considered is the Hispanic immigration that rose sharply from the 60's to the present. In the 1960's there were approximately 6 million Hispanics in the US, totaling 3.3% of the total US population. In 1999 there were 35 million, totaling 12.8% of the total US population. Hispanics are predominately Catholic which does not condone any form of contraceptive use.
http://www.hacu.net/images/hacu/conf/2008CapForum/KochharPresentationCF08.pdf

Contrary to conventional notion that most illegitimate children are not being born to teen mothers. Over the past four decades age of unmarried mother giving birth has risen from teen girls to twenties and now in thirties. Also it moved beyond black poor girls to well-to-do white and other migrant groups. See detailed stat by race from 1970 thro 2004 on unmarried childbirths in US.

All of those stats show, (a) that of course birth rates will increase as population increases, (b) the group that had the largest amount of unwed mothers were hispanic, (c) that more older women are having children out of wedlock but it does not give the reason. The first two sperm banks opened in 1965, but did not become "popular" for two decades. During the last two decades it has grown into becoming more commercial, with sperm banks offering sperm in an increasing amount to single mothers and lesbian couples. That could take into account the increase we see after the 1980's in older "well to do" white women.

Birth control revolution that was supposed to prevent unwanted pregnancies and allow peopple freely engage in sex without any fear. Inceasingly sex-driven popular culture and anti-marriage sentiment prevalent in America today has taken any stigma out of free format sexual activity. Growing promiscuity, Cohabitation etc are only making this problem worse. But all of it is not without any consequence as many would like to believe

.

Most of the problem comes from parents not wanting to teach their children about sex. I'm not saying that parents need to go into full detail with their children, but let them know about all options, not just abstinence. "Abstinence Only" education has been shown to be horribly ineffective. People are just as promiscuous as they have always been, you just hear about it more now than then.

The term illegitimate children are no more in use and is considered oppressive. Out of wedlock childbirth is the more trendy usage these days. No matter how well we sugarcoat such bitter social experimentation or legislate new policies by the government, this moral crisis cannot be easily resolved. Personal sexual ethics have a larger social, cultural and political consequences. Unless we address the core moral crisis in America, nothing else we do will matter much!

What about people starving in our alleyways? What about the cost of health care? What about the obesity crisis? Why is it that Christians want to focus on the "sexual immorality" of our nation and not the other sins? The Bible preaches that we should help the poor, Deut. 15:7. If there is a poor man among you, one of your brothers, in any of the towns of the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart, nor close your hand to your poor brother; but you shall freely open your hand to him, and generously lend him sufficient for his need in whatever he lacks, yet it is something that is frequently ignored.

Most of the problems, as stated before, come from a lack sexual education from parents. Children are no where near as innocent as we want them to be and being open about sexual matters can help them develop a healthy outlook about sex. Many times, if parents talk to them about different forms of contraception but let them know that they would prefer them to wait, they will wait. The saying "Better to have it and not need it, then Need it and Not Have it" basically explains the situation to a tee. It is better for a person to be educated on contraceptives and a still remain abstinent than be educated from an "Abstinence Only" point of view and be sexually active because they will have no clue on how contraceptives work.

these are personal problems that adults have to be responsible enough to work out. If the birth control crutch fails you will be in an unprepared position.

That means that part of sexual education should include pregnancy and other problems associated with unprotected sex.

That really all depends on how the parents(not the school) prepares they're children. Since schools are doing a horrible job and kids have to worry about being shot when they go they are turning more to they're parents for guidance, not a burnt out public teacher.

But many parents today don't want to talk to their kids about sex. Sexual education needs to start much earlier than we want to think.

Parents today are too concerned with waiting eagerly until they're child is 18 and then throwing them out immediately. Thats not how you raise children, its not supposed to be treated like a job, but rather a gift from God that you are blessed with.

Then you understand the need to educate them on all aspects of sexual education, right?

 

[MaxP]

I don't want to sound like a hater, but..

Every single thing the Catholic church has ever said or done they have eventually been forced to apologise for.

Not quite. In fact, I can't even think of one off the top of my head.

 

[Maxwell511]

Not quite. In fact, I can't even think of one off the top of my head.

I can think of many. What the Catholic Church did in my country after independence was unforgivable, that is why Ireland is very secular now.

Irish Catholics fought for hundreds of years so that they could practice their religion freely. In one short century it was revealed that the Church were just as oppressive and immoral, and any sincere practice of the religion is pretty much dead in the country now.

We don't listen to Priests or Bishops anymore for moral guidance, because they were and possibly are morally corrupt.