The Value of Progression

[<all]

Hi,

I was wondering what Christians thought about the apparently unprogressive nature of the Christian faith.

As I understand it, Christians get their teaching from the Bible, which they either perceive as infallible or, at the very least, would not change or alter over the years.

Other areas of study, such as philosophy, history, science or psychology however are continually developing and improving, in an attempt to more accurately describe the world.

Can anyone give an example of how Christianity progresses with time?

Many thanks,

<all

 

[salida]

Christianity believes in something that is eternal and infallible the Bible. Progressive? God is perfect and doesn't need to show progress. The Bible is the most true book in the world - I strongly suggest you read The Evidence The Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell (its overwhelming circumstancial evidence without a shadow of a doubt concerning bible) and Examine the Evidence by Muncaster (a former athiest). Man isn't progressing but going down hill more and more at a faster rate. This world is getting more and more corrupt - no progress here sir.

Do you think you are a good person? The Good Test Can you keep all the 10 Commandments 100&#37; of the time all the time? Only Jesus did. This is why mankind needs a Lord and Savior. Gods standards are way too high to work your way to heaven. This is what nonchristian religions do. In christianity, one is saved through grace which is a gift from God.

Biblical Circumstancial Evidence (Scratching the Surface Only)

Internal Evidences
Prophesies that are confirmed within Bible

- Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen 49:10 - Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Luke's time period is 60-70 AD)

Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5 -Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60-70 AD)

Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14/Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(60-70 AD)

**I can list at least 20 more of these.
-Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 - four kingdoms are described in the interpretation of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek - Daniel 8:21, 10:20) and a fourth great kingdom to follow - part iron and clay - which is the Roman Empire - during this empire Christ came and the church was established - Daniel 2:44.

-Historical Accuracy
The Bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events hundreds of years ago, yet has not been proven incorrect on any.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents):
New Testament - starts at 25 years - between original and first surviving copies
Homer - starts at 500 years
Demosthenes - at 1400 years
Plato - at 1200 years
Caesar - at 1000 years

Number of Manuscript Copies
New Testament - 5,686
Homer - 643
Demosthenes - 200
Plato - 7
Caesar - 10

Consistency
Written by at least 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years, and has no internal inconsistencies.

Claim of Inspiration
It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Tim 3:16-17). No other religious book makes such claims.

External Evidences
(Prophesies Outside the Bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never be built again.
Nineveh - Nahum 1:10, 3:7,15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon - Isaiah 13:1-22)
Tyre (Ezekiel 26:1-28)

Bible before Science
He hangs the earth on nothing - Job 26:7
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago - some scholars think it could be even 3000 years ago)
Note: Man only knew this for 350 years
Earth is a sphere, Isaiah 40:22
Air has weight, Job 28:25
Gravity - Job 26:7, Job 38:31-33
Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6

Documents that Prove Bible is True
Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles

Archealogoical Finds
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel

 

[ebia]

Hi,

I was wondering what Christians thought about the apparently unprogressive nature of the Christian faith.

As I understand it, Christians get their teaching from the Bible, which they either perceive as infallible or, at the very least, would not change or alter over the years.

Other areas of study, such as philosophy, history, science or psychology however are continually developing and improving, in an attempt to more accurately describe the world.

Can anyone give an example of how Christianity progresses with time?

Many thanks,

<all

All stories progress, and Christianity is part of a story. The story of how the one true and living God is acting to put the world to rights.
That story began in the call of Abraham, progressed through the ups and downs of Israel, climaxed in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth, continues in the story of the church and looks forward to the final resurrection of the dead.

The Enlightenment's myth of progress, however, that developing human knowledge will act to solve the problems of the world was pretty much shaken to bits by the 20th century.

 

[unkern]

We slowly progress in our understanding about the Lord, but many do not go that far.

 

[heymikey80]

Both physical science and theology have to deal with a fixed point of reality. You wouldn't exactly want science to come up with new fictions; you want it to gain new insights into the reality that exists.

Theology is different because it deals with a different method. Controlled experimentation with a greater Being is not a valid method of inquiry into God. It's certainly not ethical. Dr. House can't even ethically pull it off with equals.

However, there is personal progress, and that progresses us individually a great deal based on the principles already communicated to us by God.

Progress can be made in other areas, too. A number of sciences and historical inquiries (which, btw, aren't science either) contribute to our understanding of what God's saying.

 

[Johnnz]

The Trinity is one doctrine - it took around four centuries to get that sorted.

Scriptural concepts set the basis for the unique development of Western civilisation. The value of each person led to democracy and opposition to slavery. Our modern concept of 'human rights' owes its origin to Christian concepts.

God as creator allowed for placing value on the everyday activities of life, leading to a valid work ethic.

God's lawfulness allowed for scientific progress - the cosmos was not a matter of dispute between competing deities and so was consistent (lawful)

God's moral law that applied from king to peasant gave a basis for our legal system

General education, care for the sick and disadvantaged through specialised facilities was a Christian initiative.

Christians have been involved in movements for political freedom, abolition of slavery in more modern times, womens' rights, and the sanctity of life.

Nothing at all regressive about these.

John
NZ

 

[salida]

Oh, maybe I misunderstood - I thought you meant how to make the bible better concerning its concepts. There are many progressions to how its applied that others have mentioned here.

 

[<all]

Thanks for all the replies.

So am I right that Christianity *does* progress?

I just wonder because with all the changes in society it seems to me that some religions are trying to "keep up" with all the changes. It's probably best if I give an example. Like homosexual vicars in the Church. As far as I understood it, homosexuality was only accepted relatively recently in the church, following the trends of society. (I'm speaking very generally here)

Let me know if my question doesn't make any sense!

Thanks again

<all

 

[<all]

Hi again,

I've just taken "The Good Test" and I'm very confused. It seems to be saying that God waives a person's wrongdoing if they believe in Jesus - so he's not really forgiving the person, he's just shifting the blame onto someone else? I don't understand how that is "justice"

Also, one of the questions asked if I've ever murdered someone and I thought "well, no" but then the text underneath said if I was angry at anyone that was like committing murder. That just doesn't make sense to me. Anger is an emotion, a thought, whereas murder is an action. The same went for adultery too. I've never committed adultery and wouldn't want to. But it says that lust is as bad as adultery.

Can someone help me out?

<all

 

[Johnnz]

Some people don't accept the biblical record as such, and therefore feel free to 'reinterpret' it according to their mindset. For example, some say miracles can't happen, and so all such accounts in the Bible are imaginative 'add ins'. But, as knowledge grows we can face new situations that cause us to examine scripture in a new light, such as issues relating to genetic engineering.

The NT is about inner attitudes not external rules or laws. We are to exhibit something of the nature of God in our lives, and that pushes us much further than any external rule can. That is what Jesus was saying.

John
NZ

 

[ebia]

Hi again,

I've just taken "The Good Test" and I'm very confused. It seems to be saying that God waives a person's wrongdoing if they believe in Jesus - so he's not really forgiving the person, he's just shifting the blame onto someone else? I don't understand how that is "justice"

God's justice is a Restorative justice, not a punative one.

The picture of heaven and hell when you die, with heaven as a reward and hell as a punishment is a grossly distorted picture of the Christian hope.

Scripture tells the story of what God is doing to put the world to rights. That story came to it's climax in the Resurrection of Jesus. One can accept Jesus' as Lord and the invitation to get involved in his putting the world right, and putting us right in and for that world, or one can sit on the sidelines. But if one chooses not to be involved, not to be part of that transformation, one can't really complain that one is not included in the transformed, put right, New Creation.


If you knew what God was doing to put the world right, would you want to get involved?

 

[<all]

Thanks for the replies.

I'm still confused about the logic behind Jesus' death. The message seems to be "humans can't make it into heaven because they have committed sins. Jesus takes there sins away. Humans are allowed into heaven" - is that correct or am I misrepresenting Christianity?

Is God not tricking himself in this method of removing sin? I don't really understand how this is "justice" if Jesus (who was perfect) has to take the sin of humans. What is the mechanism of Jesus taking away our sins?

I've probably put too many questions in here...

The thing that I most concerned about is how God is being "Just" by letting humans pile their sin onto someone who doesn't deserve them, then waving all the humans in.

Thanks once more,

<all

 

[Johnnz]

We actually don't know what went on 'behind the scenes' when Jesus dies and later was resurrected. The NT spells out some aspects that are relevant to us. But, as Paul said "We see through a glass darkly", but one day we really will find out the answers to all our questions.

John
NZ

 

[ebia]

Thanks for the replies.

I'm still confused about the logic behind Jesus' death. The message seems to be "humans can't make it into heaven because they have committed sins. Jesus takes there sins away. Humans are allowed into heaven" - is that correct or am I misrepresenting Christianity?

"Getting into heaven" is too thin a way of looking at it. God's purpose is not to get people into some disembodied heaven when they die, but to put all creation right, and to put people right in and for that creation. When Jesus comes again that putting right will be finalised, heaven and earth will be rejoined, God's Kingdom (ie his saving reign) will become a visible reality, and we will be physically resurrected into that new creation. In the meantime the Christian dead rest with Christ - call it in heaven if you want but it's a temporary state.

Jesus resurrection anticipated that final resurrection, and the Christian calling is to live as the anticipation of that future Kingdom.

The invitation to all is to live as part of that Kingdom now, to be part of God's restoring and redeeming plan for creation now; to be put right just as we become part of God's putting right of creation, and therefore part of the finished project at the resurrection.

Don't get bogged down in models of explaining the atonement. They can be helpful, but they are models to explain it, not the reality itself. And keep in mind that when Jesus wanted to explain how his upcoming death would work to his friends he didn't give them a theorum. He washed their feet and gave them a meal.

 

[Bible2]

<all posted in message #1 of this thread:

As I understand it, Christians get their teaching from the Bible, which
they either perceive as infallible or, at the very least, would not
change or alter over the years.

Greetings.

That's exactly right. Christians get their teaching from the Bible,
which is infallible, and shows them how to progress until they are
perfect: "from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are
able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ
Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for
doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all
good works" (2 Timothy 3:15-17). The Bible is the Word of God
Himself, and so never changes; so that Christians are "born again,
not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God,
which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all
the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and
the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth
for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto
you" (1 Peter 1:23-25).

<all posted in message #1 of this thread:

Other areas of study, such as philosophy, history, science or
psychology however are continually developing and improving, in an
attempt to more accurately describe the world.

Can anyone give an example of how Christianity progresses with
time?

The truth of the Bible, the Word of God, is like arithmetic: just as
the truth of 1+1=2 hasn't changed over time, hasn't had any need
to purportedly "progress" into some falsehood, so Christians are not
to abandon the Word of God in order to purportedly "progress" into
some falsehood: "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of
season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but
after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having
itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and
shall be turned unto fables" (2 Timothy 4:2-4); "the Spirit speaketh
expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith,
giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies
in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron"
(1 Timothy 4:1-2). Jesus said "If ye continue in my word, then are
ye my disciples indeed" (John 8:31).

 

[Bible2]

<all posted in message #12 of this thread:

What is the mechanism of Jesus taking away our sins?

Jesus takes away our sins through our faith in the shedding of his
blood on the Cross for our sins: "For this is my blood of the new
testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins"
(Matthew 26:28); "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation
through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the
remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God"
(Romans 3:25). Without "shedding of blood is no remission" for
sins (Hebrews 9:22), because God is perfectly holy; his justice
requires the death of all sinners: "the soul that sinneth, it shall die"
(Ezekiel 18:4). But in his mercy, God permits the substitutionary
shedding of blood so that we ourselves don't have to die for our
sins: "the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you
upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the
blood that maketh an atonement for the soul" (Leviticus 17:11).

<all posted in message #12 of this thread:

The thing that I most concerned about is how God is being "Just"
by letting humans pile their sin onto someone who doesn't deserve
them, then waving all the humans in.

It's not like that. For Jesus himself is God: "In the beginning was the
Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ... And
the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us" (John 1:1,14). He
became a man willingly to be a ransom sacrifice for our sins: "Even
as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister,
and to give his life a ransom for many" (Matthew 20:28). "Therefore
doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might
take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself.
I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This
commandment have I received of my Father" (John 10:17-18).

God saves those people who are his children: "Behold, what manner
of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called
the sons of God" (1 John 3:1). So even though Jesus is God, as a
fellow human he is also like our big brother. So it's like if we got
caught in some crime and had to pay a huge fine, but our Father
asked our big brother to pay the fine for us, and our big brother
agreed. Jesus' death for us was also like someone who threw himself
on a grenade in order to save the lives of his friends: "Greater love
hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you" (John
15:13-14); "he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them
that obey him" (Hebrews 5:9).

 

[FutureAndAHope]

As for is Christianity progressive:

A point in time removed from this one, has some things which are similar and some things which are different. I.e. technology advances, how a human is made up stays the same. People still have the same emotions, basic needs and thoughts. The bible deals with things that do not change. Rules to govern the unchangable. Things that God believes should remain the same. His laws do not change. Note that Jesus says nothing in his law will change:

Mat 5:18-19 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So things like laws about homosexuality do not progress just becuase society thinks that it is ok, primarily because they have been brain washed to believe it is some how normal, when in reality it is really weird.

 

[Van]

Hi All, and thanks for a really good question. There are numerious aspects of Christian progression, so lets go over a few:

1) The Bible was written for the audience of the time of its writing. And so various translations over the years have attempted to use words in use today (at the time of the translation) and so this represents "progression." Also, if study and discovery, such as the dead sea scrolls, reveals something unknown when prior translations were made, a more correct (or at least thought to be more correct) translation is provided.
The New King James Version is a progression from the King James Version for example.

2) In the Christian life, when we are first converted, or born again if you will, we are "babes in Christ" and not mature Christians. But as we study God's word, humble ourselves and try to follow Christ and become Christ-like, we mature or progress. So the whole of the Christian walk is a progression as we endeavor to become Christ-like.

3) While the actual intended message of the Bible has not changed, our understanding of that message has changed over time. Looking back, the understanding or doctrines held by some, such as the justification for slavery, actually digressed rather than progressed. Today, the body of Christ is divided by several doctrines, all of which cannot be valid. But with prayerful study, the body might unify to a degree, eliminating some doctrines that do not stand up to study. Time will tell if we progress in this area or whether we will continue to splinter until Christ returns.

That completes my thoughts on progression, now on to your other questions:

Atonement and all that jazz. First there is a difference between God reconciling all mankind, and any individual person receiving or benefiting from that reconciliation. Let me give you an illustration. Say Mr. Big buys an oil lease on a vast oil rich area. He paid for the right to extract the oil or any part thereof. But the oil has been bought with a price, even though it is still in the ground, in the same condition. When God accepted Christ's sacrifice on the cross, God bought the oil lease for all mankind, paid for with the blood of Jesus. No individual was saved, not one drop of oil was extracted, when God raised Jesus, signaling God had accepted the sacrifice as the propitiation or means of salvation, for all mankind. Mr. Big studies the oil formations and decides to extract the oil that meets his purpose. God saves individuals whose faith in Christ He credits as righteousness. So every sinner has been bought so to speak, but only those sinners who fully trust in Christ receive the benefit of Christ's sacrifice. Lets call these two different transactions, General Reconciliation for the oil lease purchase, the ransom for all, and Particular Reconciliation for the oil extraction, individual salvation by being spiritually removed from being "in Adam" (in the oil field) and being spiritually placed "in Christ (extracted and saved.)

Now why did God need to be propitiated in order to reconcile mankind to God? God is holy and cannot have a relationship, a right relationship, with folks in a sinful state. But "in Christ" we are in a redeemed state, white as snow, and able to come to the Father as a child of God. And again, we can think of alternative salvation plans, but this is God's salvation plan, and since He is sovereign, it is His plan we must accept or reject.

 

[freeport]

Hi,

I was wondering what Christians thought about the apparently unprogressive nature of the Christian faith.

As I understand it, Christians get their teaching from the Bible, which they either perceive as infallible or, at the very least, would not change or alter over the years.

Other areas of study, such as philosophy, history, science or psychology however are continually developing and improving, in an attempt to more accurately describe the world.

Can anyone give an example of how Christianity progresses with time?

Many thanks,

<all

Look at the church: all branches. Christianity is not a monolith. It is encased in darkness and clouds: metaphorically, the fake Christians who are as a hiding for the real Christianity. (Nothing happens that God did not foreordain, though the guilty are guilty for their own deeds, God uses the evil they do to bring about good.)

Look at how the church, therefore, has evolved over time. We have gone from the Dark Ages where there was clearly much impurity in the church to modern society of the Free World where the Christian faith is the majority and by any account a profound influence.

All of this has happened over the past thousand years starting with the magna carta and the separation of the Orthodox Branch from the Catholic, to the Reformation, Renaissance, the birth of America in the America Revolution, and finally the collapse and rebirth of Europe and other free nations - mostly the colonies elsewhere of European nations - away from top down, tyrannical rule to democratic style systems. (I say here "style" as they are not all truly yet free from tyranny.)

In Scripture, the anti-christ is metaphorically called "The Tyrant", and Jesus is the opposite of a tyrant. Exact opposite. Paul pointed out that the saints would rule with Christ and judge even the angels: so you see a Democratic type system. Jesus pointed out that the new system would not be as the old where leaders lorded it over their sheep, but completely different: the least is the greatest, the greatest the least -- those who lead are servants of the ones who follow.

Spiritual progression comes along with this, though by our account these days are very dark: disorder is the rule and light appears as darkness.

None of that truly matters however as even as I speak of these things: the many are not where the Kingdom of Heaven is seen. The Kingdom of Heaven does not come 'so men can see it by careful observation'. It is hidden among us and within the hearts of the people.

Advancement is by grace, by the growth of the Holy Spirit within people. From that comes all deeds and words. Knowledge of the world gives no growth, but knowledge of God and the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven give growth as rain does to plants.

That growth is obscured by sin: at some time, sin is removed as through fire, then Christians become as they were always meant to be, grown up, like Jesus.

This comes through physical rebirth, metaphoric death, and real and mystical rebirth. Metaphoric death here is as a sleep, a dream, like where this world of night or desert currently is.

 

[heymikey80]

So am I right that Christianity *does* progress?

Yes, but it progresses toward an alien kind of right & wrong. That kind of right & wrong will jar us into deeper considerations, to pick a way out of error.

Some thoughts about the issue you raised, homosexuality. In Roman times homosexuals were accepted pagan priests. Christians knew that, assessed it to be wrong, and rejected it in their practices. After centuries of disconnect, culture followed. At the time culture followed, it built up a different culture of outright rejection -- which is an equal & opposite error.

Nowadays culture leads Christianity to once again accept homosexuals as priests.

Is that progress or regress?

Culture ping-pongs between only two options: rejection and acceptance. Christianity deals with more, and will have a very different answer to this. But in a hundred years the culture will try to rip apart that answer, and reduce it once again to what Christians accepted, and what they rejected. No comments about Christianity's actual approach to the issue.