The Validity Of Scripture

[Lotar]

The discussion in another thread gave me the idea to start this thread.

I would like to discuss the validity of scripture, and who it is important to believers. How secular philosophy and morals cannot take pressident.

 

[Drotar]

This should be an exercise in Bibliology and Epistemology.

I would like to La Bonita Zorilla here.

TTYL Jesus loves you!

 

[La Bonita Zorilla]

Ask me whatever. As you know I am not a fundamentalist. We worship Christ, not the Bible. The bible cannot be interpreted the same way by every person. That is okay. We all do the best with what we've got and that's good enough.

 

[BarbB]

Before being saved, I felt that the Bible was history, myth, fable, word of God (sort of) and a book to be revered, NOT the inerrant inspired word of God. After being saved, I paid more attention to it but my liberal stance still stood. Started reading it! Started studying it! and after 2+ years, the Holy Spirit has me believing in it's absolute inerrancy!!! Praise God!!! My life is certainly simpler. I went from believing that non-ordination of women was sexist conspiracy by the estrogen-challenged male patriarchs of the church. Now, I'm very fundamental, love it!!!!

In fact, I was in a Bible study, Beth Moore's John the Beloved Disciple, and I chose the small group headed by a retired woman Methodist preacher. It was awful, boring, liberal, (must I go on?). I moved voluntarily to the group headed by a born-again woman whose husband has had 1/4 of his brain removed due to cancer (is this what is meant by brain dead?) and her spirituality changed my perception of the study. He is born-again to a T and it's a beautiful thing to see him worshipping God on a Sunday!!

BTW, I have no quarrel with teachers such as Beth Moore or Joyce Meyer - they are both wonderful for women to learn from. I cannot follow a female pastor, though, as I believe that the Bible instructs against it.

My point - being born again leads to believing in Bible inerrancy; education, using one's mind, even logic cannot. I do not doubt La Bonita's Christianity (I, too, always believed in Jesus), but one cannot see or hear without the eyes and ears granted by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Drotar]

First question:

How do you know who Jesus is or what He did?

How do you know you're "saved"? Saved from what?

 

[ando]

whose husband has had 1/4 of his brain removed due to cancer (is this what is meant by brain dead?) .

No this does not necessarily mean he was brain dead in the medical sense of the word.

 

[La Bonita Zorilla]

How do you know who Jesus is or what He did?

Faith.

How do you know you're "saved"? Saved from what?

A feeling. In my view the 'what' would be many things but most especially existential despair. I do not believe in the concept of "Hell" as articulated by fundamentalists and horror movie emprasarios.

 

[Reformationist]

First question:

How do you know who Jesus is or what He did?

How do you know you're "saved"? Saved from what?

Hey bro, is this question for everyone or just for LBZ?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[La Bonita Zorilla]

I do not doubt La Bonita's Christianity

Thanks for the faint praise. If you would be less quick to reject liberalism you'd see the prime teacher of it was Jesus Christ.

 

[Reformationist]

Thanks for the faint praise. If you would be less quick to reject liberalism you'd see the prime teacher of it was Jesus Christ.

Jesus was a liberal? There's a new one.

God bless

 

[BarbB]

Thanks for the faint praise. If you would be less quick to reject liberalism you'd see the prime teacher of it was Jesus Christ.

It really wasn't faint praise as I was where you are now. I really resented it when anyone asked me if I was "saved" and said "of course" not having any idea what that was. I loved Jesus and feared (in the fearful sense) God, though I knew he loved me, at least on my good days. Now 3 years later I've turned 180 degrees and upside-down!

Jesus may have loved everyone but he was NOT a liberal theologically. He preached the narrow way, rather than the wide. He said that many who preached and revered his name would NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Matthew 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. [14] But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Luke 13:[24] "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.

Your sister in Christ,

Barb

 

[La Bonita Zorilla]

Jesus was a liberal? There's a new one.

Naw. Pretty old, actually. The Pharisees of his day were akin to conservatives of now.

 

[La Bonita Zorilla]

I really resented it when anyone asked me if I was "saved"

Depending on the circumstances that may have been justified.

Jesus may have loved everyone but he was NOT a liberal theologically.

Well, he sure wasn't a conservative, or else the conservatives of the day wouldn't have been out to get him.

 

[Reformationist]

I loved Jesus and feared (in the fearful sense) God, though I knew he loved me, at least on my good days.

Do you mean that, on your good days, you knew that God loved you or do you mean that you knew God loved you on your good days?

Jesus may have loved everyone but he was NOT a liberal theologically.

Just so I'm clear, where does it say that Jesus loves everyone? I don't disagree that Jesus was not a liberal but the Bible is quite clear that there are many that He does not love.

He said that many who preached and revered his name would NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

To say, "Lord, Lord" does not mean that someone reveres His name. I don't know if you meant this in an allegorical sense or a literal one but all who truthfully revere the name of the Lord only do so by His grace and those that revere Him because they love Him shall not be turned away because that reverence is a product of a gift of faith. Anyway, I'm not trying to be argumentative. I am just not clear on what you're saying here so please forgive me if I'm jumping to conclusions.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Naw. Pretty old, actually. The Pharisees of his day were akin to conservatives of now.

With all due respect I don't think you know what a "conservative" is. If you did you wouldn't say this. "Conservative" is not synonymous with "legalistic," which is what you seem to be implying. Though many conservatives are quite legalistic I think it is erroneous to group Jesus' life with liberals.

By this statement to the other poster it shows your misconception as to what a conservative is:

Well, he sure wasn't a conservative, or else the conservatives of the day wouldn't have been out to get him.

The Pharisees were NOT the "conservatives of the day." They were prideful teachers who thought themselves better than others by virtue of their station. Jesus promptly showed them that at their best they are still filthy sinners in need of a Redeemer. It is not an accurate assessment of conservatives to make a blanket statement grouping them with the heretical teachings of the Pharisees.

God bless

 

[Drotar]

Do you know what a conservative is?

It is COMPLETELY dependent on one's view of interest groups and government programs and aid.

A liberal, by definition, believes that the government should protect the nation and help support it. Liberals support a wide range of interest groups and agencies of blind charity. I do not say "blind" derogatorily, but that is the best word to describe it.

A conservative, by defintion, means that we believe that the government will oftentimes oppress and slow down the economy. Conservatives place strong emphasis on the working individual, and instead of offering the unemployed money, putting them into jobs. A true conservative would beleive that the government should interfere with our basic lives as little as possible. The reason why conservatives hold businesses in such high regard is because of the belief that the working people should uphold the economy. For this reason, we believe that taxes should be lowered.

Do you understand what the difference is between conservatism and liberalism? You should be more careful how you use that term.

Though for different reasons, I agree with Don that you must not know the difference between a liberal and a conservative.

I am conservative in thought, but politically, I am moderate.

To call Jesus a liberal and the Pharisees conservatives is not *even* a coherent or logical claim.



I ask you how you know that Jesus existed. You said faith. Where did you get the concept that Jesus existed? You have to know of something before you can believe it. In order to believe in the atonement of Christ, you must have heard of it. So I must ask, where did you hear about Jesus? You must believe in the Bible's claim of Jesus. You have faith in who the Bible said Jesus was.

But on other issues, you flat out deny the Scriptures. I wonder why.

That's nice to know. So, you're placing faith in subjective feeling, rather than the Bible? That same Bible that tells you about Jesus?

Tell me- have your feelings ever led you astray?

TTYL Jesus loves you!

 

[BarbB]

Do you mean that, on your good days, you knew that God loved you or do you mean that you knew God loved you on your good days?

Both, perhaps. Pre-salvation, I thought God loved me when I was "good" which wasn't very often! That was a good day. lol! On my bad days, when I was "bad" I preferred not to think about God at all. Then I didn't worry about whether God loved me. Thank you God, now I know that I am loved - I don't worry about the good or bad anymore. (I'm new so forgive and point out any theological boo-boo's).

Just so I'm clear, where does it say that Jesus loves everyone? I don't disagree that Jesus was not a liberal but the Bible is quite clear that there are many that He does not love.

Who did he not love - ohhh the Pharisee's - right? (told you I was new).

To say, "Lord, Lord" does not mean that someone reveres His name. I don't know if you meant this in an allegorical sense or a literal one but all who truthfully revere the name of the Lord only do so by His grace and those that revere Him because they love Him shall not be turned away because that reverence is a product of a gift of faith. Anyway, I'm not trying to be argumentative. I am just not clear on what you're saying here so please forgive me if I'm jumping to conclusions.

God bless

I did not take you to be argumentative. I'm new at quoting scripture and have the NIV on this computer. I need to take the time to quote properly and not paraphrase! Thanks!

I've had two preachers in as many days speak of incorporating the word into myself! I'm working on that!

Thanks for your requiring me to back myself up!

 

[Drotar]

Well, actually, He loved the Pharisees as well.

To not have would have been a contradiction of His own teachings "Love thy enemies...."

BUT, He is also just. Remember that just because He is God, doesn't mean He's cut off from emotion. He grieves over the loss of the reprobate, because He is so loving. He rejoices over the elect, though He purposed their salvation.

I'd say He loved all, but that does not mean that He intended to save all. TTYL Jesus lvoes you!

 

[La Bonita Zorilla]

With all due respect I don't think you know what a "conservative" is.

Talk about a can of worms, any discussion of definitions of liberal and conservative opens several. There are so many paradoxes and complexities to such a discussion. First off, I'm liberal, generally, socially and economically, yet an achiever who wants a fair return on my investments and lives without a lot of sturm und drang, and so are most "liberals" I know, so I can say with evidence "liberals are the most conservative people I know".

I was using "conservative" there to describe a member of what we call in the U.S. "The Religious Right" which I would hope needs no definition. This group is ineed very similar to the Pharisees and many theorists have documented that.

Some dictionary definitions of "conservativism" include "a disposition in politics to preserve what is established; a tending or disposed to maintain established views, conditions, or institutions: tradition; marked by moderation or caution; related to traditional norms of taste, elegance, style, or manners; a political philosophy based on tradition and social stability stressing established institutions and preferring gradual development to abrupt change" . Now by most of those, I and most liberals are quite conservative.

What we actually have in "The Religious Right" is not so much "conservatism" as "reaction".

So I did use a sort of shorthand that I see has technical inaccuracies and for that I apologize. But, for better or worse, we are stuck with some of the shorthanded definitions of liberal and conservative which for our purposes here I would describe as "pushing for social change" and "resisting social change" for lack of better terms.

I think it is erroneous to group Jesus' life with liberals.

Well, let's see: Some definitions of liberal include:

"One who is open-minded or not strict in the observance or orthodox, traditional or established forms or ways": This seems like a good description of the man who picked grapes on the Sabbath, eh?

"Giving freely, unstintingly; warmhearted": What better description for he who fed the multitude and said "suffer the little children unto me"?

The Pharisees were Not the "conservatives of the day." They were prideful teachers who thought themselves better than others by virtue of their station

Seems like you contradict yourself because today's conservatives (when describing the Religious Right) are "prideful teachers who [think] themseves better than others by virtue of their station".

 

[Lotar]

Talk about a can of worms, any discussion of definitions of liberal and conservative opens several. There are so many paradoxes and complexities to such a discussion.

I agree.

"One who is open-minded or not strict in the observance or orthodox, traditional or established forms or ways": This seems like a good description of the man who picked grapes on the Sabbath, eh?

He also said, no one can come to the Father except through me. Also, it wasn't grapes, and it was the disciples, not Him.

Jesus was only open minded when it came to man made traditions and legalism.

"Giving freely, unstintingly; warmhearted"

Darn, I forget the word for this type of phalicy. Anyways, this is the definition of liberal in the sense of "giving liberally" not the political or ideological sense.

Seems like you contradict yourself because today's conservatives (when describing the Religious Right) are "prideful teachers who [think] themseves better than others by virtue of their station".

That is a generalization, and could easily be turned around. today's liberals (when describing the Religious Left) are "prideful teachers who [think] themseves better than others by virtue of their intellectual understanding".