• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

The Utility of Evolution

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
30,079
13,508
78
✟451,429.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
It is only an illusion because things are too complicated for our minds to grasp. A good example of this is frame shift. This is not a mutation at all, even if they call it a mutation.
Perhaps you don't understand what a mutation is in genetics. What do you think it is?

Whether mutations are truly random or not truly random, the point is that evolution via natural selection is not random.
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
30,079
13,508
78
✟451,429.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Evolutionary theory is also remarkably effective for explaining the success of science in general, since the theories themselves are selected not on their truth component but on their predictive efficacy. It is entirely possible, even feasible, that everything science says is false but that the scientific process has selected theories that are practical.
Here's a confirmation of your point from an honest YE creationist:
I hope this doesn't turn into a rant, but it might. You have been warned.

Evolution is not a theory in crisis. It is not teetering on the verge of collapse. It has not failed as a scientific explanation. There is evidence for evolution, gobs and gobs of it. It is not just speculation or a faith choice or an assumption or a religion. It is a productive framework for lots of biological research, and it has amazing explanatory power. There is no conspiracy to hide the truth about the failure of evolution. There has really been no failure of evolution as a scientific theory. It works, and it works well.

I say these things not because I'm crazy or because I've "converted" to evolution. I say these things because they are true. I'm motivated this morning by reading yet another clueless, well-meaning person pompously declaring that evolution is a failure. People who say that are either unacquainted with the inner workings of science or unacquainted with the evidence for evolution. (Technically, they could also be deluded or lying, but that seems rather uncharitable to say. Oops.)

Creationist students, listen to me very carefully: There is evidence for evolution, and evolution is an extremely successful scientific theory. That doesn't make it ultimately true, and it doesn't mean that there could not possibly be viable alternatives. It is my own faith choice to reject evolution, because I believe the Bible reveals true information about the history of the earth that is fundamentally incompatible with evolution. I am motivated to understand God's creation from what I believe to be a biblical, creationist perspective. Evolution itself is not flawed or without evidence. Please don't be duped into thinking that somehow evolution itself is a failure. Please don't idolize your own ability to reason. Faith is enough. If God said it, that should settle it.

 
  • Like
Reactions: Job 33:6
Upvote 0

Fervent

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2020
7,581
3,482
45
San jacinto
✟223,878.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Here's a confirmation of your point from an honest YE creationist:
I hope this doesn't turn into a rant, but it might. You have been warned.

Evolution is not a theory in crisis. It is not teetering on the verge of collapse. It has not failed as a scientific explanation. There is evidence for evolution, gobs and gobs of it. It is not just speculation or a faith choice or an assumption or a religion. It is a productive framework for lots of biological research, and it has amazing explanatory power. There is no conspiracy to hide the truth about the failure of evolution. There has really been no failure of evolution as a scientific theory. It works, and it works well.

I say these things not because I'm crazy or because I've "converted" to evolution. I say these things because they are true. I'm motivated this morning by reading yet another clueless, well-meaning person pompously declaring that evolution is a failure. People who say that are either unacquainted with the inner workings of science or unacquainted with the evidence for evolution. (Technically, they could also be deluded or lying, but that seems rather uncharitable to say. Oops.)

Creationist students, listen to me very carefully: There is evidence for evolution, and evolution is an extremely successful scientific theory. That doesn't make it ultimately true, and it doesn't mean that there could not possibly be viable alternatives. It is my own faith choice to reject evolution, because I believe the Bible reveals true information about the history of the earth that is fundamentally incompatible with evolution. I am motivated to understand God's creation from what I believe to be a biblical, creationist perspective. Evolution itself is not flawed or without evidence. Please don't be duped into thinking that somehow evolution itself is a failure. Please don't idolize your own ability to reason. Faith is enough. If God said it, that should settle it.

That seems a pretty accurate assessment, though my point was more about applying similar ideas to theory development in science. We can apply a similar thinking to scientific theories that evolution applies to biological life, as the theories are developed and improved first by incremental changes and then by pushing them to the point of failure and then replacing them with theories that make better predictions. It's wonderfully effective for empowering us to manipulate the world to our advantage, but we can't know if the theories we are operating under are true or only predictively similar to the true account.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Barbarian
Upvote 0

Diamond72

Dispensationalist 72
Nov 23, 2022
8,303
1,522
73
Akron
✟57,941.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Perhaps you don't understand what a mutation is in genetics.
Mutations are changes in the DNA sequence of an organism's genes. They introduce genetic diversity and serve as the raw material for evolution. Beneficial mutations can lead to adaptations that increase an organism's fitness, while others may be neutral or have subtle effects. Mutations play a crucial role in genetic variation and the process of evolution.
 
Upvote 0

Diamond72

Dispensationalist 72
Nov 23, 2022
8,303
1,522
73
Akron
✟57,941.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
If so, then he created some humans with the intent to condemn and torture them for eternity for things they had no choice to avoid. That would make God an evil monster. No thank you.
The question of God's nature, particularly in relation to the concept of eternal punishment, is a complex and deeply philosophical topic that has been discussed and debated for centuries. Different religious traditions and theological perspectives offer diverse interpretations and understandings of this issue.

Within the framework of Christianity, various theological doctrines and interpretations have been proposed to address the problem of evil and the nature of God's justice and mercy. Some theological perspectives emphasize concepts such as free will, redemption, and the notion that God desires all individuals to be saved and have the opportunity for reconciliation.

It's important to recognize that discussions about God's nature and the existence of evil are complex and multifaceted, involving moral, philosophical, and theological considerations. Different individuals may hold diverse beliefs and understandings on this matter based on their religious or philosophical convictions.

If you have concerns or questions about faith, religion, or the nature of God, it might be helpful to engage in open and respectful dialogue with people of different perspectives, consult religious leaders or scholars, and explore various religious and philosophical texts. Ultimately, individuals may arrive at their own conclusions based on their personal reflections and experiences. Remember that beliefs about God and religious concepts can be deeply personal and can vary widely among individuals.
 
Upvote 0

Diamond72

Dispensationalist 72
Nov 23, 2022
8,303
1,522
73
Akron
✟57,941.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Define clone
Do you know who Bill Gates is? Have you ever heard of DOS?

The pivotal moment for Microsoft came in 1981 when IBM selected Microsoft's operating system, MS-DOS (Microsoft Disk Operating System), as the standard operating system for its IBM PC. MS-DOS became the foundation for IBM's PC and set a de facto industry standard for personal computers. IBM also allowed other computer manufacturers to produce IBM-compatible computers, often referred to as "IBM clones" or "PC clones."
 
Upvote 0

tonychanyt

24/7 Christian
Oct 2, 2011
6,061
2,239
Toronto
Visit site
✟196,430.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Do you know who Bill Gates is? Have you ever heard of DOS?

The pivotal moment for Microsoft came in 1981 when IBM selected Microsoft's operating system, MS-DOS (Microsoft Disk Operating System), as the standard operating system for its IBM PC. MS-DOS became the foundation for IBM's PC and set a de facto industry standard for personal computers. IBM also allowed other computer manufacturers to produce IBM-compatible computers, often referred to as "IBM clones" or "PC clones."
You must be an old-timer :)

In that case, the statement "an algorithm turns an IBM clone into a quantum computer" makes no sense to me. What was your point?
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
30,079
13,508
78
✟451,429.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Mutations are changes in the DNA sequence of an organism's genes. They introduce genetic diversity and serve as the raw material for evolution. Beneficial mutations can lead to adaptations that increase an organism's fitness, while others may be neutral or have subtle effects. Mutations play a crucial role in genetic variation and the process of evolution.
How is a frameshift not a mutation?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Job 33:6
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
30,079
13,508
78
✟451,429.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Mutations are changes in the DNA sequence of an organism's genes.
Or chromosome rearrangements. It seems that our particular genus had a chromosome fusion that isolated us from our early ancestors. The gene sequence is the same, but different chromosomes made interbreeding impossible.
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
30,079
13,508
78
✟451,429.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
If you have concerns or questions about faith, religion, or the nature of God, it might be helpful to engage in open and respectful dialogue with people of different perspectives, consult religious leaders or scholars, and explore various religious and philosophical texts. Ultimately, individuals may arrive at their own conclusions based on their personal reflections and experiences. Remember that beliefs about God and religious concepts can be deeply personal and can vary widely among individuals.
Either each person is personally able to chose good or evil, or they have no choice and are therefore blameless. I don't see any other alternative here. What do you have?
 
Upvote 0

Diamond72

Dispensationalist 72
Nov 23, 2022
8,303
1,522
73
Akron
✟57,941.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Either each person is personally able to chose good or evil, or they have no choice and are therefore blameless. I don't see any other alternative here. What do you have?
Yes I prefer the word Choice over free will.

Deuteronomy 30:19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live.

Deuteronomy 30:16
For I am commanding you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, statutes, and ordinances, so that you may live and increase, and the LORD your God may bless you in the land that you are entering to possess.
 
Upvote 0

Diamond72

Dispensationalist 72
Nov 23, 2022
8,303
1,522
73
Akron
✟57,941.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
My first database was done in dBASE on a Xerox 820 in CP/M.
My first IBM clone was MS-DOS before Bill Gates stole the icons from Amiga.

I remember a 300 bps modern and a 720 floppy. The 1200 bps modem and the 1.44 floppy seemed huge and all that we would ever need. Now I have a 5000 bps modem. The SSD I just got is 2 TB.
 
Upvote 0

Diamond72

Dispensationalist 72
Nov 23, 2022
8,303
1,522
73
Akron
✟57,941.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
How is a frameshift not a mutation?
I do not support Frances Collins but he believes that DNA is the language of God. A frame shift was there in the beginning when God spoke creation into existence. (God Said). Mutations take place along the way. Usually mutations are errors that correct themselves.

I do not have a problem with Theistic Evolution, but it is poorly defined.
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
30,079
13,508
78
✟451,429.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
I do not support Frances Collins but he believes that DNA is the language of God.
I wouldn't put it that way, but I get it. God, at the very beginning of life on Earth, built into it, the ability of change and adapt by change in the genetic code.
A frame shift was there in the beginning when God spoke creation into existence.
What's your definition of a frame shift as it applies in genetics?
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
30,079
13,508
78
✟451,429.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
My first IBM clone was MS-DOS before Bill Gates stole the icons from Amiga.
My third computer was an Amiga. I liked that it included the ability to program in CP/M.
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
30,079
13,508
78
✟451,429.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
I remember a 300 bps modern and a 720 floppy. The 1200 bps modem and the 1.44 floppy seemed huge and all that we would ever need.
My Xerox 820 included a dual 12" floppy drive. I megabyte per floppy. Whoo!
 
Upvote 0