The useless (?) tree of life (moved)

[KCDAD]

Are you following the conversation here? Let me bring you up-to-date:

1. Jesus ate often after His Resurrection, therefore ---
2. Immortals indeed eat, therefore ---
3. Lucifer, the anointed cherub, ate, therefore ---
4. The Tree of Knowledge was possibly reserved for the angels, not man.

Lucifer does not exist in The Old Testament. There is no such name, no such person, no such spirit.... it is an invention of the Latin Vulgate (from Vulgaris; the common language) translation of the Septuagint.

Jesus was / is not immortal. Jesus was fully human as you have pointed out. That makes him MORTAL. End of story.

Angels ARE human beings. They are physical mortal creatures who can suffer pain and or death...

Are you following?

 

[KCDAD]

In conclusion, Jesus ate before and after his resurrection.
This means, immortals according to the bible still need to eat and breath.

To KCDAD. There are creatures on earth with extremely long lifespans which might under the right circumstances be immortal, but they still need to eat. Now if I would create a being and wanted it to live forever (or call it a place with no death) then it would be logical to me that food and oxygen would not be needed. A place without death is a place without death, not a place without death if you follow certain physical rules.

Lucy

Ok, I understand, but a place without natural death would not necessarily be the same as a place without ANY death. What would be the point of the latter? "Life" would be meaningless... the concept wouldn't exist.

 

[KCDAD]

From I can see, Jesus didn't need to eat food.
Remember the story of JESUS at the well of the Samaritan woman and the response JESUS gave to His disciples when they asked about Him not eating, then later on mentioned to the Jews about the Manna in the wilderness?

John 4:31 In the meantime, the disciples were requesting Him saying--"Rabbi! be Thou eating!". 32 The yet He said to them "I food am having to be eating of which ye not aware/know". 33 Said then the disciples toward one another--"no any brings Him to be eating"? 34 Is saying to them the Jesus "My food is that I should be doing the will of Him of the One sending Me, and I shoud be perfecting/finishing of Him the work".

John 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat'.......... 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

40 days in the wilderness without food or water... no big deal???? Not for an immortal. So what?

 

[KCDAD]

Does this mean we can finally be rid of that pesky 'original sin' theory?
And, wouldn't this mean that everything that followed can be disregarded as well?

~Barbara

We are all have original sin... it is called selfishness or self centeredness or ID, or "me gimme mine now"itis. We are born that way and we it is a part of our ORIGINAL nature.

Disregard whatever you want... no one is gonna punish you if that is what you mean... except your own consequences. God is not in the punishing business... God is in the grace and redeeming business. Do you have his office hours?

 

[KCDAD]

I always believed that the Tree of Knowledge was what made human beings sentient. (And not either of the two theories you suggested.) And that the death that is spoken of, was never a physical death. But, a death to the blissful ignorance that comes with not being encumbered with self awareness.

I believe that what is written was never intended to be taken literally, but was a parable for something with a much deeper meaning. The tree is not really a tree. The fruit is not really a piece of fruit. etc.

Who let the other animals into the tree?

 

[KCDAD]

Good point, Barbara; let's see if we can find a verse that sums the whole Bible up.
There you have it --- 19 one-syllable words; so easy a child can understand.

I have a daughter, danggit! Why did the Hebrews have to live in such a misogynist society?

You know of course, this is about the Jews idea of eternal life through one's offspring... carrying on the name after death... right?

 

[AV1611VET]

Lucifer does not exist in The Old Testament. There is no such name, no such person, no such spirit....

Do you accept the first part of This as the Old Testament?

Angels ARE human beings. They are physical mortal creatures who can suffer pain and or death...

... and fly?

Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:

 

[KCDAD]

This is one of the things that drove me from Christianity. If the Bible was intended to mean something, why isn't it written in such a way that it's meaning can be understood by everyone? This is one of those questions I could never get a cogent answer to. Everyone who reads the Bible says it means something different. There's no consistency at all. Just a lot of woo talk from people who want to believe they are so special that the entire universe was 'created' just for them. Isn't this the Mt. Everest of arrogance?[/rant]

~Barbara

Actually the Jews seemed to understand it fairly well... sure there is a lot of debate and arguing about some of the minutiae... but the reason there is much confusion now is that very few people bother to learn about the culture and the language it was written in. American's especially seem prone to being totally ethnocentric in the Bible's interpretation.

 

[KCDAD]

How do you choose which parts of the bible are true and what parts are not?
adam was he the first man...eve was she created from his rib..Is heaven really heaven..is hell really hell..is jesus really the son of god...was mary truly a virgin...what about satan..the resurrection...ascension into heaven..

there is a reason christians do not agree... I wonder if it is because the "holy spirit" gives people such 'discernments' to view something as simple as trees and fruit as figurative of something much bigger and deeper meaning...

I also wonder why in the bible a tree can't just be a tree and a fruit a fruit..
I'm just sayin'

How do decide which parts of the newspaper are true or which parts of President Bush's speeches are true? How do you decide which parts of Dateline or 60 minutes, which parts of People or The National Enquirer, which parts of the History Channel or the Internet are true?

I'm just saying...

 

[KCDAD]

Yes, I know, but others don't agree.

So? Others think elections mean something. Others think the personal income tax is legal. Others think governments care about the people. Others think aliens are visiting out planet. Others think the first moon walk was done in TV studio. Others think that the first man was born from an ape. Others think that Tory Spelling is a celebrity. Others think that David Letterman is funny. Others think that schools actually teach you something you couldn't learn on your own. Others think that race is real. Others think that homosexual marriage will destroy our society. Others think that increased carbon in the atmosphere causes warmer temperature and others think that warmer temperatures causes more carbon to be trapped in the atmosphere, and others think that it is spirally out of control and others think who cares?

I don't care what other people think... except as a curiosity and as a way to explore other points of view.... but when I get to L, M and N, I am not going to worry about those who are still debating concepts at A, B and C.

How can people still be arguing about Adam and Eve? Have they no sense at all? There is no way ... under God, over God around God or any other way that mankind could have been started as Genesis is interpreted by some to indicate.

IT IS A MORALITY PLAY ABOUT MANKIND and SOCIETY... not a history lesson. Why would Adam have sexual organs? How could he have muscles and bones strong enough to stand up as an adult? Callouses? Skin tough enough to withstand the sun? These are all aging issues. How could he speak? How could he see and recognize shapes and colors? These are learned issues. Who taught him? How could he be lonely? How could the animals be created to solve his loneliness when they were created BEFORE he was?

Of course I know the answer: GOD DID IT!!!!! Which is interpretted to mean: I have no brain or ability to reason.

 

[KCDAD]

Do you accept the first part of This as the Old Testament?

... and fly?

Duh...it was translated from the Geneva which was translated from the Vulgate which was translated from the Septuagint....

How do spiritual beings carry physical objects?

 

[AV1611VET]

Duh...it was translated from the Geneva which was translated from the Vulgate which was translated from the Septuagint....

Second time --- do you accept the first part of This as the Old Testament?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Do you accept the first part of This as the Old Testament?

... and fly?
Originally Posted by Isaiah 6:6
Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:

And cast fire into the land?

Leviticus 1:9 But its inwards and its legs, shall they bathe with water,--then shall the priest make of the whole a perfume at the altar, an ascending-sacrifice an altar-flame of a satisfying odour unto Yahweh.

Revelation 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with Fire of the Altar, and cast it into the land: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

Reve 20:9 And they ascended on the breadth of the land and they surround the camp of the holy-ones and the city, the having been loved. And descended fire out of the heaven and it devoured them.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7164949&page=2

 

[AV1611VET]

And cast fire into the land?

No --- this whole scene takes place in a room with a fireplace in it. Don't read anything more into the passage than what's there. A piece of coal from the fireplace is not Holy Fire from God's altar of sacrifice --- as Nadab and Abihu found out.

 

[God-free]

We are all have original sin... it is called selfishness or self centeredness or ID, or "me gimme mine now"itis. We are born that way and we it is a part of our ORIGINAL nature.

If it's "just a story" and if "There is/was no tree" and if "There was no Adam and no Eve" then there is no 'original sin'. 'Self' is what each of us IS. Of course, we're selfish and self centered and individually identifiable. That's our nature. Among us are individuals who are of the "me gimme mine now" variety. Also among us are individuals who will put their own self interests aside for the sake of another. But no-one is, or ever has been, completely selfless and this does not make them 'sinful'.

Disregard whatever you want... no one is gonna punish you if that is what you mean... except your own consequences. God is not in the punishing business... God is in the grace and redeeming business. Do you have his office hours?

Since, in your own words, the Adam and Eve story is "just a story" and it never happened, I see no reason to believe that anything else in the Bible should be taken as truth. I live a decent life. I'm good to myself and others. I may not be perfect (no-one is) but I'll not spend another moment, of the only life I'll ever have, as a Christian. The message that

1.) I was born a sinner (bad),
2.) that I'll always be a sinner (bad),
3.) that I'm not, and never will be, worthy of (bad) grace and redemption unless I accept, as my savior, a man who claimed to be the son of a supernatural deity and was executed thousands of years ago

is repugnant. To tell people that they will spend eternity suffering the effects of the fire and brimstone of hell if they don't accept Jesus' love is akin to, but immeasurably worse than, a schoolyard bully saying to another child "I like you. Be my friend or I'll break your legs."

God is not in the punishing business??? Which version of the Bible have you been reading?

~Barbara

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

No --- this whole scene takes place in a room with a fireplace in it. Don't read anything more into the passage than what's there. A piece of coal from the fireplace is not Holy Fire from God's altar of sacrifice --- as Nadab and Abihu found out.

Sure it is. What did that coal of fire do when it touched his mouth/lips?
What is the purpose of Fire in the Bible? Doesn't it also purify both people and the land? [Read my Siggy btw]

Isaiah 6:7 He touched my mouth with it and said, "Behold, this has touched your lips; and your iniquity is taken away and your sin is forgiven."

Ezekiel 38:22 "And I will bring him to judgment with pestilence and bloodshed; I will rain down on him, on his troops, and on the many peoples who with him, flooding rain, great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. [Revelation 16:21 and 20:9]

Revelation 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with Fire of the Altar, and cast it into the land: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

Reve 20:9 And they ascended on the breadth of the land and they surround the camp of the holy-ones and the city, the having been loved. And descended fire out of the heaven and it devoured them.

 

[PujolsNonRoidHomerHitter]

So, a couple of points and a question.

1. As I pointed out, if eating from the tree of knowledge would mean A&E would know death, then it would appear that they already had immortality, which would seem to make the tree of eternal life superfluous.

2. Even having been burdened with mortality, the tree of eternal life was made off limits to A&E, which would also seem to make the tree superfluous---obviously no one else ever ate from it.

The Question. Why did god even bother planting such a tree in the first place? In the beginning it wasn't needed, and later on, when it was needed, or was at least desirable, it was taken out of service.

Interesting question.

Perhaps we make A&E and the whole garden experience too mystical. The main difference between them and us is that we are now born with a sinful nature whereas their's was perhaps sewn into them but lying dormant until disobedience.

I don't even buy the thought that A&E had no knowledge of what was good or bad or right or wrong and that suddenly upon eating from the tree they were magically awakened to some new revelations of good, bad, evil, knowledge, right, wrong, etc;. The very fact that God makes a command of them with added consequences implies some knowledge.

As for your questions: 1) Why does the tree of life have to be superfluous? Could it be that they were made mortal and not immortal? Could it be the tree of life gave them continued life? What do you think the tree actually is? I realize it's spiritualizing the whole text but could it possibly be that the tree of life was God himself? Christ?

2) You say, "But if the tree were Christ then were they cut off from Christ when they were thrown out of the garden?" Only to the degree of physical life/death. We will once again eat from the tree in a time yet to come. And just as the tree (He) sustained the lives of A & E will also sustain us . . . forever!

Just some thoughts to ponder.

Go Cards!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Take a look at Zech 3:9. How is YHWH going to take away the iniquity of the land of "judah/israel" in One Day?

Zech 3:9 For lo! the stone which I have set before Joshua, Upon one stone, are Seven (pairs of) Eyes,--Behold me! cutting the engraving thereof, declareth Yahweh of hosts. So will I take away the iniquity of that LAND in One day.

I propose that could be referring to the Day of execution of JESUS on the "stauros" and also the judgement and wraths on the people and LAND of "judah/israel" that do/did not believe unto Him after that. I believe this was fulfilled.

Reve 18:8 "Therefore her plagues will come in One Day -- death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong [is] the Lord God who judges her. 9 " The kings of the earth who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with her will weep and lament for her, when they see the smoke of her burning,

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7164949&page=2
DO NOT WEEP!!!!! The Great City

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Interesting question.

Perhaps we make A&E and the whole garden experience too mystical. The main difference between them and us is that we are now born with a sinful nature whereas their's was perhaps sewn into them but lying dormant until disobedience.

I don't even buy the thought that A&E had no knowledge of what was good or bad or right or wrong and that suddenly upon eating from the tree they were magically awakened to some new revelations of good, bad, evil, knowledge, right, wrong, etc;. The very fact that God makes a command of them with added consequences implies some knowledge.

As for your questions: 1) Why does the tree of life have to be superfluous? Could it be that they were made mortal and not immortal? Could it be the tree of life gave them continued life? What do you think the tree actually is? I realize it's spiritualizing the whole text but could it possibly be that the tree of life was God himself? Christ?

2) You say, "But if the tree were Christ then were they cut off from Christ when they were thrown out of the garden?" Only to the degree of physical life/death. We will once again eat from the tree in a time yet to come. And just as the tree (He) sustained the lives of A & E will also sustain us . . . forever!

Just some thoughts to ponder.

Go Cards!

Great post!!! In my view, we are already "eating from it"
Take a look at that court in Revelation 11. The same word used for casting-out is from the Hebrew word used for "expelling/casting out" the Adam in Gene 3:4. All Jewish/Hebrew symbology....

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Gene 3:24 And He is expelling/garash the 'adam, and he is dwelling from east to garden of Eden, the cherubim and flame of the sword, the one turning himself, to guard/keep way of tree of the living ones.

Reve 11:2 and the Court, the-one with-out of-the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out out-side and not her you should be measuring, that she was given to the nations.

http://www.nsbible.org/sits_ts/v0s1.htm

The Camp--The Court--The Tabernacle--The Brazen Altar--The Laver-- The Table--The Lampstand--The Golden Altar--The Mercy Seat and Ark--The Gate--The First Veil--The Second Veil--The Significance of These and Their Antitypes.

 

[AV1611VET]

Sure it is. What did that coal of fire do when it touched his mouth/lips?

Probably nothing at all.

What is the purpose of Fire in the Bible?

To burn?

Doesn't it also purify both people and the land?

Ya --- by reducing everything to smoke and ashes.

[Read my Siggy btw]

I've got siggys disabled. I'm tired of reading cheap rhetoric and seeing every Tom, Dick, and Harry venerated by armchair worshippers.