The Upward Mobility Myth

[HouseApe]

Hmmm, within a town yes, he would have been very valuable two hundred years ago. Not sure about pay scale though. However, today, a blacksmith, with good marketing skills can do very well.

A friend of mine changed careers, from a research scientist to a blacksmith. He does better financially than he did running a lab in corporate america.

I think its not the occupation that matters as much as the approach. I have no doubt that Dr Jim would have been in the same economic classification irrespective of the period in time.

The exact skills will change over time. The marketing of such skills and the modification of such skills to fit the market are the key. This brings me back to the OP. Attitude and approach create upward mobility. Does a socioeconomic status have an effect on that? Quite possibly.

I see it in farming. Those who have not done well for years, tend to not do well. Otoh, those who have been successful in other entities, when entering farming as a second career, seem to do better than those who have lived it their whole life if they started out on the lower side of the equation.

Ron

Good post mnphysicist, I agree with everything here. What interests me is to understand the psychology of the the folks who make it versus those who don't. Some people have enormous ambition, some don't. Some care about being fabulously wealthy, some don't. Some are happy working 9 to 5, but want their time for family. Some don't want to work at all.

I think, as a society and individuals, we are all better off without having poverty. I don't think that is possible. However the best approach in my mind to solving the problem is understanding the psychology of those who live in poverty. From there, I would be happy to spend tax dollars helping people overcome the psychological barriers they have to being upwardly mobile, if possible. The governments past approach of just handing out money only enhances those psychological barriers.

 

[alaurie]

However the best approach in my mind to solving the problem is understanding the psychology of those who live in poverty. From there, I would be happy to spend tax dollars helping people overcome the psychological barriers they have to being upwardly mobile, if possible. The governments past approach of just handing out money only enhances those psychological barriers.

Excellent approach in theory, HouseApe, but having managed hourly institutional foodservice employees, I can't fathom how you'll change these things in practice. I had a few dynamic employees who rose to supervisory positions with little education. One started from a generational welfare familly, worked a night cleaning job at a local paper mill, and so impressed management at the mill with his work ethic that he was hired by them at well over twice the salary of his foodservice job. So he stopped his cleaning business, worked for the mill, and continued to work as a food service supervisor part-time though the mill job put him above the average US income in a town with very low living expenses. And he accomplished all this with derision from peers. He was a disciplined saver and was sarcastically referred to as "banker". Wanted to build a house but didn't want a spare bedroom because he told me he would have too many family members angry with him for not letting them move in and live off him; he was a super nice guy who decided it would be easier to build a small house than to stay in conflict with ner-do-well siblings. Who knows what motivated him psychologically while those around him stayed lazy and envious?

From what I recall, escaping poverty is very difficult. Movement within the vast middle class is much easier, and can be achieved by any driven, prudent individual. Entering the elite class is next to impossible.

I disagree with the first statement. I know many people like my former employee and my parents (both children of sharecroppers) who've moved out of poverty and stayed out. My observation of people around me tells me any driven, prudent individual can escape poverty as well.

 

[HouseApe]

Excellent approach in theory, HouseApe, but having managed hourly institutional foodservice employees, I can't fathom how you'll change these things in practice. I had a few dynamic employees who rose to supervisory positions with little education. One started from a generational welfare familly, worked a night cleaning job at a local paper mill, and so impressed management at the mill with his work ethic that he was hired by them at well over twice the salary of his foodservice job. So he stopped his cleaning business, worked for the mill, and continued to work as a food service supervisor part-time though the mill job put him above the average US income in a town with very low living expenses. And he accomplished all this with derision from peers. He was a disciplined saver and was sarcastically referred to as "banker". Wanted to build a house but didn't want a spare bedroom because he told me he would have too many family members angry with him for not letting them move in and live off him; he was a super nice guy who decided it would be easier to build a small house than to stay in conflict with ner-do-well siblings. Who knows what motivated him psychologically while those around him stayed lazy and envious?

The bolded above is exactly my point. Until we make the effort to actually find out, we are guaranteed to always have the lazy and envious amongst us.

One interesting thing I've seen over the years: put someone in a low-paying, menial job and you get a lazy, envious employee. Put them in a good paying job with high expectations, and you get a hard worker. I've been a manager for 15 years, and I find people will try to live up to your expectations of them.

 

[alaurie]

The bolded above is exactly my point. Until we make the effort to actually find out, we are guaranteed to always have the lazy and envious amongst us.

One interesting thing I've seen over the years: put someone in a low-paying, menial job and you get a lazy, envious employee. Put them in a good paying job with high expectations, and you get a hard worker. I've been a manager for 15 years, and I find people will try to live up to your expectations of them.

This guy started out in a low-paying menial job but broke out.

Regarding psychological motivation, I think there are efforts being made to understand this. Are you familiar with research on internal and external locus of control?

 

[HouseApe]

This guy started out in a low-paying menial job but broke out.

I understand. And that is my interest. Some people are sharp, real self-starters. Other aren't, but given the right opportunity, can turn into a real winner from seemingly a real loser.

Regarding psychological motivation, I think there are efforts being made to understand this. Are you familiar with research on internal and external locus of control?

Nope, but thanks for verbiage for google.

 

[nvxplorer]

I disagree with the first statement. I know many people like my former employee and my parents (both children of sharecroppers) who've moved out of poverty and stayed out. My observation of people around me tells me any driven, prudent individual can escape poverty as well.

Many do, but the vast majority don't. The economic/social structure of inner cities presents a barrier that is difficult to penetrate. Unemployment, especially for young black males, is extremely high in places like Harlem, etc. Violence, drugs and crime are pervasive. It's very difficult for most to break this cycle, but yes, some do succeed.