• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The Upward Mobility Myth

Spawn

Don’t hate me for being right. I’m too beautiful!
Mar 17, 2005
2,308
55
53
Home
✟2,789.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
HouseApe said:
So what is stopping people? If communities, churches, whatever was making sure people didn't live in poverty, the government wouldn't be in the business of doing this. The U.S. has been a country for 230 years now, and not one community has ever done this. Why do you think this is?
There will ALWAYS be someone living in poverty - often because of their own choices. You cannot eliminate poverty until you eliminate human nature.

As for why churches and communities do not do this - they did prior to the advent of the welfare state AND many still do meet the needs of those in the communities. I know we work to do that in my church and in my community. There are many programs to help those in need.
 
Upvote 0

Spawn

Don’t hate me for being right. I’m too beautiful!
Mar 17, 2005
2,308
55
53
Home
✟2,789.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
HouseApe said:
Well, I don't just mean feeding the hungry and providing a temporary shelter for the homeless. I mean an organization (or set of them) that the poor can turn to, or even ones that seek out the poor, and provide them with the tools they need to become fully self-sustaining, productive and upwardly mobile members of society.

The feds don't do it now, nor, to my knowledge, have any charitable organizations attempted it on a large enough scale to be effective.

You are asking for what cannot be done. You cannot move EVERYONE out of poverty because many just do not want to do what is needed.

HOWEVER - that being said - if you follow a few basic rules your chances of living in poverty is less than 6%.

1 - FINISH HIGH SCHOOL - knowledge is power.

2 - GET MARRIED BEFORE YOU HAVE CHILDREN & STAY MARRIED.

3 - WORK ANY KIND OF A JOB

4 - AVOID CRIMINAL ACTIVITY

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/walterwilliams/ww20050511.shtml
 
Upvote 0

HouseApe

Senior Veteran
Sep 30, 2004
2,426
188
Florida
✟3,485.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Spawn said:
You are asking for what cannot be done. You cannot move EVERYONE out of poverty because many just do not want to do what is needed.

HOWEVER - that being said - if you follow a few basic rules your chances of living in poverty is less than 6%.

1 - FINISH HIGH SCHOOL - knowledge is power.

2 - GET MARRIED BEFORE YOU HAVE CHILDREN & STAY MARRIED.

3 - WORK ANY KIND OF A JOB

4 - AVOID CRIMINAL ACTIVITY

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/walterwilliams/ww20050511.shtml

I'll by that. But with a population of 290 million, 6% is 17.4 million.

Understand that I am a Republican, because I know that the welfare state created by dems in the '60's lead to poverty and hopelessness for millions. I despise that. I also agree that some will live in poverty know matter what you do for them.

However, I know that some people are just stupid, I know some people have severe impulse control problems, and I know some people are brought up in social situations that make it extremely difficult for them to become upwardly mobile.

I have a great deal of compassion for these folks. Welfare, has been proven a failure. But then so has just telling them to pull them up by their own bootstraps.

My great concern is that the Republican party has become so right wing that it has lost any real desire to help the poor. You can't blame people for a lack of intelligence, nor poor health, nor can you blame them for how they are brought up. I have also seen impulse control and compulsions are mental disorders that people cannot really help. So we just say screw 'em?
 
Upvote 0

arnegrim

...still not convinced it was the wrong one.
Jun 2, 2004
4,852
140
California
✟28,223.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
HouseApe said:
I'll by that. But with a population of 290 million, 6% is 17.4 million.

Understand that I am a Republican, because I know that the welfare state created by dems in the '60's lead to poverty and hopelessness for millions. I despise that. I also agree that some will live in poverty know matter what you do for them.

However, I know that some people are just stupid, I know some people have severe impulse control problems, and I know some people are brought up in social situations that make it extremely difficult for them to become upwardly mobile.

I have a great deal of compassion for these folks. Welfare, has been proven a failure. But then so has just telling them to pull them up by their own bootstraps.

My great concern is that the Republican party has become so right wing that it has lost any real desire to help the poor. You can't blame people for a lack of intelligence, nor poor health, nor can you blame them for how they are brought up. I have also seen impulse control and compulsions are mental disorders that people cannot really help. So we just say screw 'em?

Not at all... but how much money do you sink into each person to get them on track? And of course, the more you sink into a person, the greater the overall average cost is and the 'lower' the overall effectiveness of the program is... which leads to other parties demanding change...
 
Upvote 0

Spawn

Don’t hate me for being right. I’m too beautiful!
Mar 17, 2005
2,308
55
53
Home
✟2,789.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
HouseApe said:
I'll by that. But with a population of 290 million, 6% is 17.4 million.
NO - you're misreading the statist. 6% in that if you follow these rules - you have a 6% chance of actually living in poverty. It is not saying that 6% of the people who follow these rules lives in poverty.
 
Upvote 0

Milla

Well-Known Member
Apr 24, 2004
2,968
197
21
✟26,730.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
arnegrim said:
Basically... a theory without any hard data to back it up...

Yeah, pretty much. Which is fine, since no one is using it to back up any argument. I posted it because I thought it interesting that the contentious topics discussed in this thread in 2005 are so similar to the contentious topics of a century ago.
 
Upvote 0

Scholar in training

sine ira et studio
Feb 25, 2005
5,952
219
United States
✟30,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
Nikos100 said:
What point are you trying to prove, that there is no underclass in a pure free market? Hate to break it to you but the Middle-Class has been diminishing under Bush and will continue to do so. Thats the price of privatization. I remember an old saying once, "Only in America is privatization viewed as a step forward for democracy".
Do you have a source for this? The U.S. government was very uninvolved in a person's life back in the 18th and 19th centuries, and a middle class existed then. People have been achieving upward mobility ever since this nation began; motivation and education are two of the most important things you can have when it comes to getting a good job, and even someone from a poor family can (but will not always) have good enough motivation to search out a good education - or if that is not possible, study on one's own. It is hard, but it can be done, and done well.
 
Upvote 0

HouseApe

Senior Veteran
Sep 30, 2004
2,426
188
Florida
✟3,485.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
arnegrim said:
Not at all... but how much money do you sink into each person to get them on track? And of course, the more you sink into a person, the greater the overall average cost is and the 'lower' the overall effectiveness of the program is... which leads to other parties demanding change...

From an investment perspective, you would want to sink in less than you will get back in taxes from them over some reasonable period.

So if I sink in $20,000 now and get $4,000/year back in taxes because they now have productive jobs, I'll make money in 6 years. Of course I don't know what the real numbers would be.

I'm a big fan of small, well organized pilot programs that test out the efficacy of programs before throwing billions at a problem. Not something the feds have been good at over the years.
 
Upvote 0

HouseApe

Senior Veteran
Sep 30, 2004
2,426
188
Florida
✟3,485.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Spawn said:
NO - you're misreading the statist. 6% in that if you follow these rules - you have a 6% chance of actually living in poverty. It is not saying that 6% of the people who follow these rules lives in poverty.

Yeah, I knew that. But I don't know how many millions of people living in poverty is considered "ok".
 
Upvote 0

Spawn

Don’t hate me for being right. I’m too beautiful!
Mar 17, 2005
2,308
55
53
Home
✟2,789.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
HouseApe said:
Yeah, I knew that. But I don't know how many millions of people living in poverty is considered "ok".
It should not be a bout numbers. I should be about the whys and hows.
 
Upvote 0

arnegrim

...still not convinced it was the wrong one.
Jun 2, 2004
4,852
140
California
✟28,223.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Milla said:
Yeah, pretty much. Which is fine, since no one is using it to back up any argument. I posted it because I thought it interesting that the contentious topics discussed in this thread in 2005 are so similar to the contentious topics of a century ago.

Ahhh... ok, gotcha.

Yes... it is interesting.
 
Upvote 0

arnegrim

...still not convinced it was the wrong one.
Jun 2, 2004
4,852
140
California
✟28,223.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Milla said:
Numbers aren't a way of measuring effectiveness of the "whys and hows"? :confused:

Not at all.

You can throw all the money and job offers you want at a drug addict... it's not going to change his poverty level until he changes.
 
Upvote 0

far rider

Active Member
Jun 9, 2005
48
9
✟213.00
Faith
Anglican
DaveyD said:
Three of the nation's top newspapers have been examining the national myth recently. The Wall Street Journal has looked at social mobility. In recent decades, financial inequality has been increasing, not shrinking. That didn't matter, many said, because studies show a constant shuffling of the deck.

Walter Williams made a good point about this yesterday: with as much as is made of "financial inequality", not much is made of inequality of productivity.

Example: in my job I make decisions that affect millions of dollars in transactions. Should the McDonalds or Wal Mart employee, who affects hundreds of dollars in transactions, earn the same amount of money I do? To put it another way, would you want the McDonald's employee doing my job, or the Wal Mart employee flying the plane you are traveling to Pittsburgh in?

Certain people make more money because they are more productive. That's why the guy who runs the backhoe makes more money than the laborer who digs ditches with a hand shovel.

Less fun, but more telling, was a New York Times piece comparing three victims of heart attacks. The series has been especially good at capturing the subtle ways in which privilege manifests itself and gets transmitted over generations. It's not just money. It's not just IQ or education or blue blood or even good values. It's how all these combine into knowing which hospital to ask for when the ambulance arrives.

This is funny. As a heart patient myself, you generally go to the closest hospital with the facilities necessary to help you. Nobody - let me make this clear - NOBODY - knows enough to ask for a hospital with the best cath lab and team because people barely know what an angina attack feels like.

(Soapbox warning) Thanks to AIDS activists, we know all about how AIDS is transmitted, how to prevent it, who gets it, blah, blah, blah, but we don't know that a heart attack can feel like a toothache, a stomach ache, a stiff neck, a pain in the arm, wrist, and any number of symptoms that don't look like the images you see in the old movies where people having a heart attack clutch their chests and fall to the ground.

Yet it claims more lives than anything.(End soapbox warning)

The New York Times, as usual, is misleading their readers.

And President Bush wants to make Social Security more of an opportunity to do well and less of a guarantee against doing disastrously. In short, if insurance means shifting risks from individuals to society, what has been going on lately is the opposite: shifting risks from society back onto the individual.

Social Security is NOT insurance. I don't know exactly what it is other than a con, but there is no guarantee that you will ever get anything of what you paid into it back. Here's the way I look at it: who is mosre likely to have my best interests at heart, me, or "society". (When I say "society" read: the government.)

The answer is I am the one. The bottom line is this: the government is notional about what promises they keep and when they keep them. It doesn't matter who is in power at the time - if Democrats are in charge they will raise my taxes so they can tell me about all the good things they are doing for me. If Republicans are in charge they will cut my benefits because there really isna't enough money. We have known this for years, and I can't believe people have the nerve to act surprised about it now.

Politicians care about one thing: that's buying votes, and anybody who thinks the nanny state is going to take care of them is a fool. When the national mood changes they'll go with that.

Meanwhile, despite months of superb reporting by three great newspapers, the question of how closely our national reality resembles our national myth remains open.

The real question is does the reporting of these papers resemble reality.

Does it matter whether your place in life is determined by your IQ or your schooling or your parents' wallets — all of which are beyond your control? As we learn more about the human mind, even qualities such as self-discipline seem to be a matter of genes, not grit.

(Soapbox warning)With some of the health problems I have had, I have the unique perspective of having nearly died. I laugh at the talk of "opportunity" on one hand by the same people who talk about "a woman's right to choose" and "the right to die".

What I am saying is that where there is no life, there is no hope, and the people who toss the unborn off as "parasitic tissue" or the like seem totally unwilling to extend the most basic "opportunity" to them - that is, another day to live. Yet, they want to talk about "financial inequality" (while ignoring productivity inequality) for political purposes.(End soapbox warning)

You only need one opportunity: another day to live. What you do with that determines your future. People who refuse to follow even the most basic laws of finance will always be poor, while people who do follow the rules will do well.

A couple of references:

Rich Dad, Poor Dad - Robert Kiyosaki

The Richest Man In Babylon - George S. Clason

The Millionaire Next Door - Thomas Stanley and William Danko
 
Upvote 0

Mongoose

So it goes.
Jan 17, 2004
1,914
31
39
Minnesota
✟24,744.00
Faith
Atheist
If this isn't a myth, then someone explain to me all of these workers and small-business owners I know who have been working 50-60 hours a week and are still struggling to pay the bills. I don't think they want to be told that it's because they haven't been "working hard," when they sure as hell have been working harder than any multi-millionaire CEO.

Let's face it: the money you make in this country is not determined by how hard you work. It's all about being in the right place at the right time.
 
Upvote 0

far rider

Active Member
Jun 9, 2005
48
9
✟213.00
Faith
Anglican
Mongoose said:
If this isn't a myth, then someone explain to me all of these workers and small-business owners I know who have been working 50-60 hours a week and are still struggling to pay the bills.

If workers with a regular paycheck can't pay their bills, then they are most likely not handling their money right. I made six figures a couple years ago and I wouldn't buy some of these cars these "workers" drive. I used to know a girl who was always whining about money and I told her to sell her car - she had a $500 car payment. I wouldn't have a $500 car payment.

I don't know about the small business owners. Every situation is different with them.
 
Upvote 0