The unrefuted argument for creationism

[Chris B]

Not being sure of yourself, but being pretty sure about the experiences of others,
how would you characterize such a person if they said that?

As given, I'd be edging towards thoughts of low self-esteem,
But as a summary it's not really a match for what I said.

 

[SkyWriting]

As given, I'd be edging towards thoughts of low self-esteem,
But as a summary it's not really a match for what I said.

Self analysis is difficult.

 

[SkyWriting]

“Science is organized common sense where many a beautiful theory was killed by an ugly fact.” Thomas Henry Huxley
Keep ideas open where possible, and in general try to avoid being so closed as to rule out an idea before examining whether or not there is anything to confirm or refute it.

I'm pretty sure he was talking about his criticism of others and not the field as a whole.
The mind does not work that way. People rarely ever give up their pet theories except
under a relentless barrage of criticism.

Unless you can reproduce numerous amounts of support for his idea.

 

[Chris B]

I'm pretty sure he was talking about his criticism of others and not the field as a whole.
The mind does not work that way. People rarely ever give up their pet theories except
under a relentless barrage of criticism.

Unless you can reproduce numerous amounts of support for his idea.

I think it was talking about general scientific principle: there are parallel passages referring to how "scientific thought" is only ordinary thought refined by training and practice.
And of course any ideal is reduced to something less than ideal when it is carried out by human beings. One hopes some merit survives the encounter, so for science we have "paradigms in place" issues, and academic fighting for pride or for funding rather than for truth alone. But at least the principle of questioning and checking is there, centrally, which gives the scientific method a self-critical and self-correcting tendency, which it to be greatly valued. Where else does one find it?

"People rarely ever give up their pet theories "
Maybe I have less trouble with this than most, but then I do count as autistic.
Maybe my pet theory is "if it's true then I should believe it" which allows for the change of belief with new information (test it!) without my "pet theory" being in the least challenged.

"When the facts change I change my mind. What do you do, sir?" John Maynard Keynes.

Einstein rejected "big bang theory" on first encounter and notoriously tried to avoid accepting an expanding universe as that idea emerged... but he was able to change his mind.

It took more than a quarter of a century for the majority "steady state" view of cosmology to be firmly overthrown by the "big bang": part debate, part new findings.

Edison was slow to admit, but finally did, that AC rather than DC electricity was superior for large-scale electrical supply.

It's an interesting call when new information appears that does not fit the existing model, that paradigm in place.
Reject the information: it must be "bad information" because it doesn't fit "what we already know."?
Adjust the information and perhaps to lesser degree the model in place, until everything is made to fit, come what may?
Or at some point realise that a whole new framework is required to make all the data fit comfortably: not a time for adjustment, but for revolution.

On a geocentric solar system models, epicycles could be proposed to produce the odd retrograde motion of planets observed in the sky. In fact, given as many epicycles as required, a good match to observations can always be produced.
A "theory that fits every observation, whatever it is"... but such are rarely of any value.
"The Invisible Pink Unicorns did it" covers everything very neatly.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Self analysis is difficult.

Not as much for autistic people. The only people we can have an adequate understanding of with relative ease is ourselves, being that our social disorder makes understanding other people very difficult.

 

[Chris B]

Not as much for autistic people. The only people we can have an adequate understanding of with relative ease is ourselves, being that our social disorder makes understanding other people very difficult.

On the other hand, though starting from a disadvantaged position, sometimes we can end up with a better understanding of ourselves and other people, and the how differences in perspective exist... at least compared to those who, whatever their natural skills and instincts, have never give the matter a single further thought.

In addition, if you are in the local majority or mainstream the unthinking default "people think and feel much as I do" is actually going to work pretty well.
It just leaves such lost at sea when they are asked to understand and cope with difference.
(Much easier then to demand that such non-conformists change and adopt "proper" views, priorities and behaviour.
Unthinking majorities can get away with that sort of thing. But a little less, these days.)

 

[PsychoSarah]

On the other hand, though starting from a disadvantaged position, sometimes we can end up with a better understanding of ourselves and other people, and the how differences in perspective exist... at least compared to those who, whatever their natural skills and instincts, have never give the matter a single further thought.

In addition, if you are in the local majority or mainstream the unthinking default "people think and feel much as I do" is actually going to work pretty well.
It just leaves such lost at sea when they are asked to understand and cope with difference.
(Much easier then to demand that such non-conformists change and adopt "proper" views, priorities and behaviour.
Unthinking majorities can get away with that sort of thing. But a little less, these days.)

Oh, autistic people such as myself have deviant thought processes and approaches to situations, so often how we would react or behave in response to stimuli is not the same as non-autistic people. So, coping with the differences is a lot harder, as the differences are more extensive (which is part of why it is so hard to relate to others). My theory of mind, the ability to see situations from the perspective of another person, is worse than that of the average 5 year old. But, I understand myself quite well, even when it puzzles others. Hence why the disorder is called autism, a term which literally means "condition of self". Autistic people are trapped in the little worlds of our minds, where we can't really see those of other people all that well, and they can't see ours.

The worst interactions I have are actually with other autistic people, because we don't understand each other either, and we get just as easily, if not more easily, offended and irritated than most people do. A social group comprised of the antisocial does not go well.

 

[Chris B]

Oh, atheist people such as myself have deviant thought processes and approaches to situations, so often how we would react or behave in response to stimuli is not the same as non-autistic people.

Different, anyway. "Deviant" is often what the mainstream, unable to cope with difference, calls it.
(Tell us often enough and we can start to believed it too.)
Not so long ago most societies tried to "cure" left-handed children, as well.

So, coping with the differences is a lot harder, as the differences are more extensive (which is part of why it is so hard to relate to others).

Agreed, but its the unacceptance of difference from those around that really doesn't help.

My theory of mind, the ability to see situations from the perspective of another person, is worse than that of the average 5 year old. But, I understand myself quite well, even when it puzzles others.

Ah, I can do better than that on ToM: my biggest blindspots sit elsewhere. We vary, enormously, (something else the public tends to get wrong)

Hence why the disorder is called autism, a term which literally means "condition of self". Autistic people are trapped in the little worlds of our minds, where we can't really see those of other people all that well, and they can't see ours.

A good part of that, certainly, but then I mostly like my Ivory tower. And I can leave it and "do" social: it's just that it#s tiring hard work, even when I'm having fun.

The worst interactions I have are actually with other autistic people, because we don't understand each other either, and we get just as easily, if not more easily, offended and irritated than most people do. A social group comprised of the antisocial does not go well.

Oh yes, I know that one. Little is more boring than someone else's special interest that you don't share.
Far better to find a niche with the similarly interested, autistic or not.
Theology and philosophy works there for me.
And as an utter cliché for a male on the autistic spectrum, model railways.

As a teenager I desperately aspired to be "normal", so that I'd be accepted and liked.
But I got better, and saw through that.
Let's have conformity as a choice, not an external demand.

Chris
(If I was intelligently designed, what about the bits of me which were then very clearly unintelligently designed?)

 

[PsychoSarah]

Different, anyway. "Deviant" is often what the mainstream, unable to cope with difference, calls it.
(Tell us often enough and we can start to believed it too.)
Not so long ago most societies tried to "cure" left-handed children, as well.


Agreed, but its the unacceptance of difference from those around that really doesn't help.


Ah, I can do better than that on ToM: my biggest blindspots sit elsewhere. We vary, enormously, (something else the public tends to get wrong)


A good part of that, certainly, but then I mostly like my Ivory tower. And I can leave it and "do" social: it's just that it#s tiring hard work, even when I'm having fun.



Oh yes, I know that one. Little is more boring than someone else's special interest that you don't share.
Far better to find a niche with the similarly interested, autistic or not.
Theology and philosophy works there for me.
And as an utter cliché for a male on the autistic spectrum, model railways.

As a teenager I desperately aspired to be "normal", so that I'd be accepted and liked.
But I got better, and saw through that.
Let's have conformity as a choice, not an external demand.

Chris
(If I was intelligently designed, what about the bits of me which were then very clearly unintelligently designed?)

Oops, how embarassing, "autistic", not atheist. I write it so often, my mistake, autistic people such as myself have deviant thought processes.

 

[Chris B]

Oops, how embarassing, "autistic", not atheist. I write it so often, my mistake, autistic people such as myself have deviant thought processes.

<Grin>
I still insist on "different" rather than "deviant" (for most purposes)
I may well conform to social norms, out of courtesy, or convenience.
If I do I'm not conforming because I am "deviant" and need to correct my lack of being "normal".

I can "do" normal eye contact, but I'd prefer not to...
But often I go outside my comfort zone so other people can stay within theirs, on this.

Something I put togehter a few years ago.

Fishpaste world..... where nearly everyone puts fishpaste on their toast at breakfast.
A few very odd people seem to prefer marmalade.
This tends to provoke a reaction over the breakfast table.
Things like: "Yuck! Disgusting! They shouldn't be allowed at the table until they can eat properly."
"It's just not acceptable! Why would anyone want to spread marmalade on their toast?"
Others, with more kindly intent, try to help these individuals gradually come to learn to put fishpaste on their toast, with practice sessions and fishpaste games.
They are worried that if those with the marmalade habit do not learn to put fishpaste on their toast they will miss so many of the wonderfully nuanced tastes and flavours that everyone else enjoys.
They also know that, unfortunate though it is, ostracism, ridicule and more is likely to be the lot in the world-at-large for those who reach for the marmalade at breakfast, and that learning to keep this quirk well-hidden is the route to social progress.

Surely once they have got used to it, they will prefer fishpaste anyway...Or at least accept it out of habit.
Whatever it tastes like to them.
Welcome to fishpaste world.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"One of the major problems with neurotypicals is that they have a remarkable intolerance of difference and expect everyone to accept the same culture and conventions, yet, as humans, we have always progressed by being different."
Professor Tony Attwood. (personal communication, but with permission to quote)

 

[PsychoSarah]

<Grin>
I still insist on "different" rather than "deviant" (for most purposes)
I may well conform to social norms, out of courtesy, or convenience.
If I do I'm not conforming because I am "deviant" and need to correct my lack of being "normal".

I didn't realize that the word "deviant" had an inherent negative connotation when using this particular contextual definition of it.

I can "do" normal eye contact, but I'd prefer not to...
But often I go outside my comfort zone so other people can stay within theirs, on this.[/QUOTE]
I am actually mostly unable to hold eye contact, as if my eye muscles fight my efforts to do so. I mostly just give the illusion of it by staring at the forehead between the eyes and right above them.

Something I put togehter a few years ago.

Fishpaste world..... where nearly everyone puts fishpaste on their toast at breakfast.
A few very odd people seem to prefer marmalade.
This tends to provoke a reaction over the breakfast table.
Things like: "Yuck! Disgusting! They shouldn't be allowed at the table until they can eat properly."
"It's just not acceptable! Why would anyone want to spread marmalade on their toast?"
Others, with more kindly intent, try to help these individuals gradually come to learn to put fishpaste on their toast, with practice sessions and fishpaste games.
They are worried that if those with the marmalade habit do not learn to put fishpaste on their toast they will miss so many of the wonderfully nuanced tastes and flavours that everyone else enjoys.
They also know that, unfortunate though it is, ostracism, ridicule and more is likely to be the lot in the world-at-large for those who reach for the marmalade at breakfast, and that learning to keep this quirk well-hidden is the route to social progress.

Surely once they have got used to it, they will prefer fishpaste anyway...Or at least accept it out of habit.
Whatever it tastes like to them.
Welcome to fishpaste world.

Your example here is, while not surprising or necessarily unwarranted, stacked against those that prefer fishpaste. You neglect to acknowledge that the "marmalade people" (the representation of those that are autistic) not only are often intolerant of those different from themselves, but from personal experience, generally have less tolerance than the average neurotypical person. For example, I find people singing along with music, regardless as to how well they sing, as intolerable as nails on a chalkboard. Most perfumes make me gag and choke when I smell them. Most of my issues are not in that I have "different" habits from other people, but that I can't stand common habits that other people have. Having the sensory integration problems that many autistic people have, some of these habits can cause physical agony beyond the reasonable scope of human sympathy for those without these problems. But it isn't just that neurotypical people cannot see the world from an autistic person's perspective; given that autism is, at its core, a social disorder, many autistic people have trouble understanding things from a typical person's perspective. My theory of mind is measurably worse than that of a 5 year old neurotypical child. These skills are not taught, but learned naturally for most, and there isn't much that can be done beyond developing ways to work around the weaknesses as best as I can.

But to be frankly honest, I don't give a crap if my habits bother neurotypical people. The only reason I even try to pass as "normal" is because it makes my life harder to just be my weird self, and deal with the consequences, to the point that it is unrealistic for me to hold a job. I'm at the far end of the "can function within society with a lot of effort", as in, I am about as severe as a person can be and still hope to have a CHANCE of being able to survive independently. Any time I forget to maintain my behavior and carefully monitor it with a lot of conscious effort, I run the risk of offending people. Heck, I have made adults cry unintentionally. Do you honestly think it is fair to be critical of people for not being accepting of my natural inclinations when they cause emotional harm to others, regardless as to whether or not I intend to do it? Knowing I don't mean to make them feel bad doesn't usually help people feel all that much better.

"One of the major problems with neurotypicals is that they have a remarkable intolerance of difference and expect everyone to accept the same culture and conventions, yet, as humans, we have always progressed by being different."
Professor Tony Attwood. (personal communication, but with permission to quote)

Nearly everyone is intolerant of "different from themselves" to some degree, even if they internalize it. Have you ever been to a forum aimed at autistic people, such as Wrong Planet? The rate of people getting offended on that site rivals that of this one, and taboo subjects such as religion are not even a major feature of it. The problem isn't just that autistic people such as myself are "different", but the problem lies in how we are different. While being autistic and adapting to society is hard, that is not an excuse for bashing people because they feel uncomfortable when I pace around in a circle, or feel insulted when I won't shake their hand, or bring up subjects that aren't appropriate. It is perfectly reasonable for them to be scared by the fact that I pull my hair out of stress, or hit myself repeatedly in the head out of frustration as hard as I can (a childhood habit I no longer have, but upset instructors greatly). I distracted the class and compromised their education with my issues. I dare you to come up with a defense for tolerating self harm habits like those.

Consider this: people might go "yuck" for food preferences, but in the real world, you aren't going to see a lot of discrimination because of those minor details. Sometimes, it is justified to be intolerant of autistic people for their behaviors. It isn't an easy issue to deal with, determining how much people should be lenient because of a social disorder, and how much they should put their foot down. But going all out one way or the other is going to cause problems for some people, but going all out hard hurts the smallest number of the extremes. I certainly would not want people to think my hitting people for cutting in the lunch line was ok because I had a social disorder that made me intolerant of even the slightest bit of rule-breaking (I did it to people cutting behind me along with those cutting in front of me).

A lot of the antisocial behaviors associated with autism are recognizably harmful, and should not be tolerated. This isn't a world that hasn't been made for me, I am a person not well-made to function in this world, and my incentive to get better is consequences to the antisocial behaviors that I have. We don't need more acceptance, we need people to know what having the disorder means, and how best to help us adapt.