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Spirko
Guest
If you believe in odds like that, you should run out and play the lottery right now.
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Spirko
Guest
The odds of such a complex and ordered universe being a coincidence are about the same as you winning the lottery every single day for the rest of your life.
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leftrightleftrightleft
Well-Known Member
I think its funny when either side tries to pull the "probability" or "coincidence" card. In order to have a probability you need a sum set of all possibilities with one desired outcome being the probability to be calculated. If you role a die, you have a sum set of six possibilities and choosing a 4 gives you a one in six chance of having that desired outcome actualized.
Existence doesn't work that way. There's no "sum set" of possible universes. There is either one universe, the one we see, and it just "is", or there are an infinite number of possible universes: one where dogs fly, one where we have seven legs, one where you live in Annapolis, one where a proton weighs 3 tons, one where all of these things happen, one where none of these things happen. So if there is the one universe that just is, then the probability of it occurring is 1 because the sum set is 1. If there are infinite universes then the probability of it occurring is 0 because the sum set is infinity.
Maybe there are only three universes: this one, the one where you live in Annapolis, and the one where dogs fly. In this case, then its a 1 in 3 chance that we are the way we are. But you're still left with the lingering idea of why the other two exist. In fact, you're still left with the question of why anything exists at all.
So, if there are an infinity of universes or if there are 3 or if there is only one, you're still left with the confusing notion of why a universe exists in the first place.
If you try and make the same argument about Life's existence you run into the exact same problem.
And if your argument is that its "just a coincidence" then that is no more potent an argument than "God did it".
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solarwave
Guest
The only way that makes sense is if there is more than one universe with different laws.
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It's amazing that as the world learns more and more about the complexity of life, and what it takes for life to exist, the world becomes more and more convinced there is no creator.
Read Romans 1 and weep, unregenerate man. The time is coming when every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus is the creator of everything, and the Lord of everything.
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. (Romans 1:18-25 NIV)
Read Romans 1 and weep, unregenerate man. The time is coming when every knee will bow and every tongue will confess Jesus is the creator of everything, and the Lord of everything.
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. (Romans 1:18-25 NIV)
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solarwave
Guest
How do you know there is no 'sum set'?
Unless logic itself says that the only universe that could ever possibly exist in any possible reality is this one, where the only limits on possiblities are the laws of logic, then there must more than one possible universe.
So the point I would make is that if there is no ultimate mind then there is no reason reality should one way or another. If there is any law which restricts reality in any way it can always be said that that law could be different in a different reality unless that law is fundamentally simple.
If basic logic says that this universe is the only possibly universe and this universe happens to have life, that seems amazingly lucky.
But I just wrote that off the top of my head so there may be errors in that thinking.
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