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Sojourner<>< said:This is an interesting argument.
Even if evolution is a possible interpretation for the action performed by the earth in the creative process of plant life, the major problem is that this conflicts with the apparent chronological structure of the Bible.
If we assume that this is correct, it would mean that a massive amount of time would be required for the formation of life on this earth as we know it.
This would also mean that the meaning of the word day (Hebrew "yowm", H03117) is not a literal 24 hour period, since plant life didn't appear until the third day.
There are only three possible scenarios that I can think of based on your argument:
1) "Yowm" means "age" and the length of time is undefined, but uniform. We know that Adam was created on the sixth day. This means that he would have existed for more than 1 and a portion of an "age". However, this is unfeasible since Adam lived only 930 years as recorded in Genesis 5:5 and would not allow for the billions or even millions of years required for evolution to take place.
2) "Yowm" means "age" with an undefined and inconsistent length of time. This option is incompatible with the pattern of the concluding statement of each of the first six days: "And the evening and the morning was the nth day" which adds an element of uniformity to the meaning of "day". Aside from this, it would be illogical for the same word to be used for different amounts of time.
3) Chapters 1-11 are completely allegorical. This is an impossible scenario as the NT quotes Genesis 4 times as literal fact - twice of Jesus in Matthew 19:4-6 and Mark 10:6-8 making reference to the creation of male and female in Genesis 1:27 and marriage in 2:24. This would also upset the entire plan of redemption and core message of the Bible.
In my own opinion, I would have to say that these problems outweigh eisegesis based on verb tense rather than definition.
shernren said:And referring to Jesus' genealogies is a bit of a stretch. I mean, one of them is fake in the factual sense, so it's not going too far to say that both of them are fake. Look at the genealogies and you will see that they disagree with each other: so why do we need to postulate that either of them agree with actual history? The only real requirements for Jesus' ancestry are that He be a Jew of Judah from the line of David, and none of this is territory touched by Genesis 1-11.
shernren said:Well it's possible, but one of them couldn't possibly be completely literal. Matthew 1 has:
Matthew 1:16And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
and Luke has:
Luke 3:23And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
Both are on the surface genealogies of Joseph. So that suggestion requires a non-literal reading of the text.
Another interpretation is that the Matthew lineage was a lineage of royal descent whereas the Luke lineage was a lineage of natural descent. Again, another non-literal reading of the text.
This is actually an important issue. If one has to take the genealogies of the Gospels as non-literal, why shouldn't we have similar license to take the genealogies of Genesis as non-literal? And on a related aside, isn't this what YECs do to get a date of 10,000 odd years for the earth? The Ussher date gives 6000 years and as far as I know it directly refers to the Genesis chronologies, so a 10,000 years date needs some fudging of the same ...
Sojourner<>< said:This is not actually about linguistics and cultural influence. It is about paradigms.
Human cognition is not universally consistent between individuals. Although the scientific method is consistent, the first and second steps of the method are dependant upon cognition, which is not. These steps are, of course, observation and forming a hypothesis, which depend upon perception and ingenuity, respectively. These functions are affected by a paradigm. Let me demonstrate.
When it comes to the origin of the Earth and all life on it, nobody can observe the formation of geological strata nor the process of evolution as they are assumed to have occured over billions of years by the majority of the scientific community. Because of this, a paradigm shift has much more of an effect on the community in this particular area of thought than it would on say medicine or technology, where test results can be observed within an individual's lifetime.
shernren said:Well it's possible, but one of them couldn't possibly be completely literal. Matthew 1 has:
Matthew 1:16And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
and Luke has:
Luke 3:23And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
Both are on the surface genealogies of Joseph. So that suggestion requires a non-literal reading of the text.
Another interpretation is that the Matthew lineage was a lineage of royal descent whereas the Luke lineage was a lineage of natural descent. Again, another non-literal reading of the text.
This is actually an important issue. If one has to take the genealogies of the Gospels as non-literal, why shouldn't we have similar license to take the genealogies of Genesis as non-literal? And on a related aside, isn't this what YECs do to get a date of 10,000 odd years for the earth? The Ussher date gives 6000 years and as far as I know it directly refers to the Genesis chronologies, so a 10,000 years date needs some fudging of the same ...
grmorton said:It would be nice if moderns would read the ancient Church Fathers on things like this. The earliest Christian historian was Eusebius. He wrote the only thing I have heard which makes sense of this issue.
Eusebius says that both are genealogies of Joseph but one follows Joseph's legal genealogy (from Matthew); the other (from Luke) follows the biological lineage. This is due to the Jewish law which says a man can marry the widow of a brother who left no offspring and raise up children for that dead childless brother. Jacob and Eli are half brothers biologically. Eusebius says that the same thing happened in the next generation. Jacob and Eli were married to the same woman. Eli had died first. Jacob marries Jesus' grandmother and raises Joseph up as the legal heir of Eli, but Joseph is the biological son of Jacob. Thus a genealogy of law is not equal to genealogy of biology.
It looks like this.
...Solomon.......................Nathan
......|............................|
...Mattan‑‑‑‑‑‑‑‑Estha‑‑‑‑‑‑‑‑‑‑‑ Melchi
...dies first.|...........|
............Jacob‑‑‑?‑‑‑‑ Eli.(dies first)
....................|
..................Joseph
Eli dies Jacob marries Eli's Widow raises Joseph as Eli's seed
according to Law
~~Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, (Grand Rapids: Baker Book
House, 1955), p.33
shernren said:*blink* But SBG, I do believe in a literal Adam!I was just pointing out that genealogies may not be such rock-solid records as they're meant to be. I personally subscribe to the second school of thought you mentioned, partially because it shows how Jesus' biological lineage skipped the curse of Coniah in Jeremiah. However, the point I am making is that things may not always be what they appear to be in Scripture. If I read things "at face value", I would suppose that Joseph was both the son of Eli and Jacob. Hmmmmm...
gluadys said:I agree it makes sense. But it doesn't tell me how Eusebius knew this. In particular, it doesn't tell me how Eusebius knew that Jacob married Eli's widow rather than the reverse.
It is a shame, when it comes to traditional information like this that early Christians did not keep track of their origin with the precision that early Muslims kept track of their hadith.
grmorton said:Well, Eusebius is quoting a letter from Julius Africanus (160-240 AD) to Aristides, so this story goes way back to within 200 years of Christs death. Apparently this letter existed in Eusebius' day 260-341 AD
I think there's more to it than just that God created. God created the world to be orderly. This is shown by the order in the creation days. The six days, which represent the Hebrew work week, are divided into two sets of three. Light on day 1 is filled with luminaries on day 4. The firmament and the waters it separates on day 2 are filled with fish and birds on day 5. The dry ground that appears and is covered with vegetation on day 3 is filled with land animals and humans on day 6. So, we have a symmetric arrangement between 1/4, 2/5 and 3/6.SBG said:If you think the only point to Genesis 1-3 is that God created, then why so specific on what God did each day?
Because naming is very important and signifies more than it generally does today. To name something is to show dominion over it and to assign it a role. (Just like how God named the heavens on day 2 and the earth on day 3.)Why so specific how Adam and him naming the animals and such?
Genesis 1:1 is a good overview, but the entire account (Genesis 1:1-2:3) is a literary masterpiece.If this didn't happen and all that was trying to be said, Genesis 1:1 would have sufficed.
gluadys said:That's helpful. I don't know much patristic literature. And I am not a priori opposed to recognizing the role of oral tradition. In fact, I think Protestants should pay more attention to church history without elevating it to authoritative status as Catholics do.
But I still get very curious over where these traditions come from. When people just cite a patristic source as if that settles it, I get edgy. Sounds like the medieval practice of appeal to select authorities. "If so & so says it, it must be true."
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