The United Church of Canada Decides to Retain Atheist Pastor Gretta Vosper

[redleghunter]

Not really puzzling. It simply means that, under the facade, many other UCC clergy are atheists, and support Gretta Vosper.

Gretta Vosper (who I don't really trust, tbh) claims that 30% of UCC clergy are atheists, and only 35% believe in the Trinity

Wow. Why bother having a confession and catechism.

 

[Radagast]

Wow. Why bother having a confession and catechism.

They don't. What they have is a "Song of Faith":

"God is Holy Mystery,
beyond complete knowledge,
above perfect description.

Yet, in love, the one eternal God seeks relationship.

So God creates the universe
and with it the possibility of being and relating.
God tends the universe,
mending the broken and reconciling the estranged.
God enlivens the universe,
guiding all things toward harmony with their Source.

Grateful for God’s loving action,
We cannot keep from singing.

With the Church through the ages,
we speak of God as one and triune:
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
We also speak of God as
Creator, Redeemer, and Sustainer
God, Christ, and Spirit
Mother, Friend, and Comforter
Source of Life, Living Word, and Bond of Love..."

Notice the wording there: they don't believe, they speak of.

 

[redleghunter]

They don't. What they have is a "Song of Faith":

"God is Holy Mystery,
beyond complete knowledge,
above perfect description.

Yet, in love, the one eternal God seeks relationship.

So God creates the universe
and with it the possibility of being and relating.
God tends the universe,
mending the broken and reconciling the estranged.
God enlivens the universe,
guiding all things toward harmony with their Source.

Grateful for God’s loving action,
We cannot keep from singing.

With the Church through the ages,
we speak of God as one and triune:
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
We also speak of God as
Creator, Redeemer, and Sustainer
God, Christ, and Spirit
Mother, Friend, and Comforter
Source of Life, Living Word, and Bond of Love..."

Notice the wording there: they don't believe, they speak of.

They have more than that historically:

Faith Statements

 

[Radagast]

They have more than that historically:

Faith Statements

Yes, but from the figures, the clergy clearly doesn't believe in those older faith statements.

Even the most optimistic figures say that at least 5% of UCC clergy are atheists.

 

[Strong in Him]

How can anyone lead worship to a God they don't believe in, and preach his Gospel?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Not satire folks but can be from the Twilight Zone:

The United Church of Canada Decides to Retain Atheist Pastor Gretta Vosper

The United Church of Canada has decided to retain Gretta Vosper as a minister in the UCC despite the fact that she is an atheist. Two years earlier the UCC had declared that Vosper was unfit for ministry because she could not affirm her vows or the UCC confession. Yet now in a joint statement between the UCC and Vosper’s church, we learn that the “Toronto Conference, the Rev. Gretta Vosper, and West Hill United Church have settled all outstanding issues between them.”

Yet Vosper still denies God’s existence. One might be tempted to think that the existence of God is no longer an outstanding issue for the Toronto Conference. But the UCC released a statement on November 7th assuring its readers that “This doesn’t alter in any way the belief of The United Church of Canada in God.”

So the UCC confesses the existence of God while affirming the validity of a pastor who denies the existence of God. Something changed between 2016 and 2018. In September 2016, a 24 person committeediscovered that Vosper could not affirm her ordination vows nor the confession of the UCC. Nineteen members of the committee naturally concluded that she was unfit for ministry. Now, in November 2018, Vosper’s inability to reaffirm her vows and her atheism no longer seem to matter. There are no “outstanding issues” between the UCC, Vosper, and her church.

Canadians must conclude that the UCC no longer sees the existence of God as a primary issue when it comes to pastoral ministry. The UCC has told the nation that UCC pastors need not believe in God to serve in the church.

More at link:

The United Church of Canada Decides to Retain Atheist Pastor Gretta Vosper - The Gospel Coalition | Canada

Is this real? If so, can we still regard the UCC a "church"?

 

[DamianWarS]

Not satire folks but can be from the Twilight Zone:

The United Church of Canada Decides to Retain Atheist Pastor Gretta Vosper

The United Church of Canada has decided to retain Gretta Vosper as a minister in the UCC despite the fact that she is an atheist. Two years earlier the UCC had declared that Vosper was unfit for ministry because she could not affirm her vows or the UCC confession. Yet now in a joint statement between the UCC and Vosper’s church, we learn that the “Toronto Conference, the Rev. Gretta Vosper, and West Hill United Church have settled all outstanding issues between them.”

Yet Vosper still denies God’s existence. One might be tempted to think that the existence of God is no longer an outstanding issue for the Toronto Conference. But the UCC released a statement on November 7th assuring its readers that “This doesn’t alter in any way the belief of The United Church of Canada in God.”

So the UCC confesses the existence of God while affirming the validity of a pastor who denies the existence of God. Something changed between 2016 and 2018. In September 2016, a 24 person committeediscovered that Vosper could not affirm her ordination vows nor the confession of the UCC. Nineteen members of the committee naturally concluded that she was unfit for ministry. Now, in November 2018, Vosper’s inability to reaffirm her vows and her atheism no longer seem to matter. There are no “outstanding issues” between the UCC, Vosper, and her church.

Canadians must conclude that the UCC no longer sees the existence of God as a primary issue when it comes to pastoral ministry. The UCC has told the nation that UCC pastors need not believe in God to serve in the church.

More at link:

The United Church of Canada Decides to Retain Atheist Pastor Gretta Vosper - The Gospel Coalition | Canada

Anything that follows "The United Church of Canada" doesn't surprise me much

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Not really puzzling. It simply means that, under the facade, many other UCC clergy are atheists, and support Gretta Vosper.

Gretta Vosper (who I don't really trust, tbh) claims that 30% of UCC clergy are atheists, and only 35% believe in the Trinity

Well, the "United" part of the "United Church of Canada" implies a unified Godhead, not a trinity. So it is understandable why 65% are do not believe in the trinity.

 

[Radagast]

Well, the "United" part of the "United Church of Canada" implies a unified Godhead, not a trinity.

No, it reflects the fact that they are a union of Methodist, Presbyterian, and Congregational churches (like the Uniting Church in Australia).

The UCC believed in the Trinity when they were first formed.

 

[“Paisios”]

Well, the "United" part of the "United Church of Canada" implies a unified Godhead, not a trinity. So it is understandable why 65% are do not believe in the trinity.

Actually, the “United” part of the United Church of Canada refers to the union of the Presbyterian, the Congregationalist and the Methodist Churches which formed the United Church of Canada back in 1925, and has nothing to do with any theological statement.

EDIT: I see @Radagast already said this.

 

[FireDragon76]

Why would an atheist have any interest in involving oneself in a Church? Aren't they in a sense denying their'atheism'?

And why would the UCC want to call itself a Church when it stands against everything a Church stands for?

I would imagine some pastors in this situation feel a sense of loyalty to the institution, or believe in its existence, despite their own personal beliefs about God.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

No, it reflects the fact that they are a union of Methodist, Presbyterian, and Congregational churches (like the Uniting Church in Australia).

The UCC believed in the Trinity when they were first formed.

Okay, perhaps I had them confused with the United Church of Christ

 

[crossnote]

I would imagine some pastors in this situation feel a sense of loyalty to the institution, or believe in its existence, despite their own personal beliefs about God.

It happens whenever Church Tradition or Confessions trump God's Word. Yes compromise can be a problem.

 

[FireDragon76]

I would imagine an atheist pastor feels they are still doing some kind of good and the consolation of religion and community benefits people whether or not God literally exists or not. As long as they do not impose their atheism onto the congregation, I don't necessarily see it as a deal-breaker.

 

[ladodgers6]

Not satire folks but can be from the Twilight Zone:

The United Church of Canada Decides to Retain Atheist Pastor Gretta Vosper

The United Church of Canada has decided to retain Gretta Vosper as a minister in the UCC despite the fact that she is an atheist. Two years earlier the UCC had declared that Vosper was unfit for ministry because she could not affirm her vows or the UCC confession. Yet now in a joint statement between the UCC and Vosper’s church, we learn that the “Toronto Conference, the Rev. Gretta Vosper, and West Hill United Church have settled all outstanding issues between them.”

Yet Vosper still denies God’s existence. One might be tempted to think that the existence of God is no longer an outstanding issue for the Toronto Conference. But the UCC released a statement on November 7th assuring its readers that “This doesn’t alter in any way the belief of The United Church of Canada in God.”

So the UCC confesses the existence of God while affirming the validity of a pastor who denies the existence of God. Something changed between 2016 and 2018. In September 2016, a 24 person committeediscovered that Vosper could not affirm her ordination vows nor the confession of the UCC. Nineteen members of the committee naturally concluded that she was unfit for ministry. Now, in November 2018, Vosper’s inability to reaffirm her vows and her atheism no longer seem to matter. There are no “outstanding issues” between the UCC, Vosper, and her church.

Canadians must conclude that the UCC no longer sees the existence of God as a primary issue when it comes to pastoral ministry. The UCC has told the nation that UCC pastors need not believe in God to serve in the church.

More at link:

The United Church of Canada Decides to Retain Atheist Pastor Gretta Vosper - The Gospel Coalition | Canada

And this is how corruption in the church starts, and then perverting of the Gospel of Christ among other things happen. Question for the group: Is it essential to know precisely what one believes prior to taking a prominent position as Pastor?

 

[aiki]

Why would an atheist have any interest in involving oneself in a Church? Aren't they in a sense denying their'atheism'?

And why would the UCC want to call itself a Church when it stands against everything a Church stands for?

The devil needs his alternative to the real Church that he can present to the World.

 

[aiki]

Question for the group: Is it essential to know precisely what one believes prior to taking a prominent position as Pastor?

Yes, absolutely.

 

[section9+1]

May God spit them out of his mouth.

 

[Cement]

This is way more common then people think. Many Priests today are more in line with Neo-Deism then what the Bible says.

 

[grasping the after wind]

I would imagine an atheist pastor feels they are still doing some kind of good and the consolation of religion and community benefits people whether or not God literally exists or not. As long as they do not impose their atheism onto the congregation, I don't necessarily see it as a deal-breaker.

It is rather hypocritical don't you think? It baffles me how anyone that was an atheist could possibly remain a part of a church in any capacity let alone proport to be a pastor. Do you think it would be reasonable for a fundamentalist Moslem or Christian to be a leader in the Atheist Alliance International? Could such a person possibly deliver the message the group stood for in a convincing way?

Is the attitude - I don't believe any of this but I want the benefits of the employment opportunity?

If being an atheist isn't a deal breaker for the position of Pastor in a Christian church, or any other sort of organized religious leadership position I don't know what is. How about Satanist? Would you accept that that might qualify as a deal breaker?