The UN?

[intricatic]

I get where you are coming from. Politicians will use their "faith" as a resume enhacer to get elected and then run about doing as they please. Which does not speak well of their honesty in the frist place. Then I wonder how someone who makes 140k a year ends up a multi-milloionaire before the end of their frist term. I wish some actual christians who beleive in the principals of the Constitution would start running for office.

That is why I started this tread. Bush makes all this noise about being a christian then does things that are clearly paving the way for the Anti-christ. Just does not add up.

Politics in general pave the way for the Antichrist. When put in power, any human being will be dragged into dwelling on the self, and trying to actualize that inward goal of being a god that got Adam and Eve kicked out of the garden. It's this that will lead to the Antichrist. It can't be avoided, so there's really not much use in worrying about it.

 

[romanov]

Roflol!

Well, sorry U don't like the song "Sowing the Seeds of Love" lol However, there are other Tears For Fears songs that are masterpieces! I have some great Tears For Fears songs! I'm a'm big of them. lol I love Roland's solo work better.

I like Tears for Fears too, but that one song is just, I do not know, it's just.

Anyhow, I just wanted to say, I like your style, too.

AHHH! Shucks you guys.

Thank you for letting me go from politics. I don't wish to get into political debates. I feel I have enough problems right now just learning about all the "different" Christian doctrines I am hearing on the internet right now.

All of us so similar, yet sometimes we just don't understand each other.

Yeah, Maybe people make GOD more complicated than HE is. Just a thought.

I did not mean to sound so arrogant in "releasing you from politics." I really meant if GOD is sending you in another direction you should go that way. Trust me, if you disobey GOD life can get real rough real quick.

I also have been "ill". I don't wish to get into it, but I feel my health and my family and my God are more important than my learning about "politics".

I hate to hear you are ill. Bonnie and I will pray for you.

Bonnie is the wife.

But, I just wanted to say I thought your post was funny! I loved you honesty.

p.s. I have some really great TFF songs I could share with you instead of "Sowing the Seeds of Love". lol

Cool! I just got a MP3 player that is compatable with Linux. I really like the Linux OS but it can be a pain.

but also I need to add for honesty your post was funny EXCEPT for the part about Janis Joplin. I didn't think that was funny. I just wanted to make that clear.

I know sometimes I get carried away. Sorry. Bonnie let me know of it too. I just really hate the idea behind that line.

 

[romanov]

Politics in general pave the way for the Antichrist. When put in power, any human being will be dragged into dwelling on the self, and trying to actualize that inward goal of being a god that got Adam and Eve kicked out of the garden. It's this that will lead to the Antichrist. It can't be avoided, so there's really not much use in worrying about it.

Thing is if it can not be avoided, why the warning? And why does GOD try to teach us the way to live?

 

[intricatic]

Thing is if it can not be avoided, why the warning? And why does GOD try to teach us the way to live?

We are to be prepared for it. We can't avoid it, though. It's a prophesy - it will be fulfilled or the prophesy was meaningless and false. Would you think trying in vain to prevent it from coming to be is more beneficial than being prepared for when it does?

 

[romanov]

We are to be prepared for it. We can't avoid it, though. It's a prophesy - it will be fulfilled or the prophesy was meaningless and false. Would you think trying in vain to prevent it from coming to be is more beneficial than being prepared for when it does?

This is close to IM. It would be easier if my boy wasn't in my lap.

Being prepared is being saved. When the rapture happens most of us won't be around. My thinking is if HIS church was larger and was in his grace maybe he would hold off. Which would give more people a chance to come to HIM.

 

[intricatic]

This is close to IM. It would be easier if my boy wasn't in my lap.

Being prepared is being saved. When the rapture happens most of us won't be around. My thinking is if HIS church was larger and was in his grace maybe he would hold off. Which would give more people a chance to come to HIM.

God acts according to His own timing. We can't delay or speed up the time He decides is right.

 

[romanov]

God acts according to His own timing. We can't delay or speed up the time He decides is right.

HE was going to act on Sodom and Gamora, was his hand not stayed?

Your right we do not know HIS timing, but isn't that a good reason to try to witness, get people to read their Bible and try to live a moral life. Which leads right back to my question. How can a christian support the UN knowing it will be the seat of the Anti-christ?

 

[intricatic]

HE was going to act on Sodom and Gamora, was his hand not stayed?

Your right we do not know HIS timing, but isn't that a good reason to try to witness, get people to read their Bible and try to live a moral life. Which leads right back to my question. How can a christian support the UN knowing it will be the seat of the Anti-christ?

Absolutely; but this is totally unrelated to the UN. I'd be the first to celebrate if the UN was abolished, but it wouldn't delay the Antichrist or the second coming one iota.

This is a controversial passage and I'm still researching the background for it, but I'll ask, what do you think this means?

Mark 13
5Jesus said to them: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 6Many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and will deceive many. 7When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 8Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.
9"You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. 10And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

 

[romanov]

Absolutely; but this is totally unrelated to the UN. I'd be the first to celebrate if the UN was abolished, but it wouldn't delay the Antichrist or the second coming one iota.

Maybe it would delay the Anti Christ, maybe it wouldn't. I guess your opinion would have to depend on whether or not you believed God has a to do list with the date and the time He'll bring about the end times; the rapture, etc. (I understand that there are differing opinions as to precisly when the rapture will occur and some don't think it will happen at all).

So the original post was a question, in a nutshell, of why do some Christians support the UN? Here's an organisation which is evil incarnate (I know I'm kinda going overboard) but in cruising around just on this website, I see people with the UN flag of their nation of choice. I see people with the UN symbol as their avatar or in their signatures. These are people you would think believe the end times are coming and the one world government is on its way which will pave the way for the Anti Christ. You just wouldn't think that Christians, be they politicians or the baker down the street, would support the UN or the European Union, The North American Alliance or any of the other kindoms being set up. You would think they would avoid it like the plague.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't support the UN because it is going to slowdown or stop the inevitable but because it is an evil organisation which will help to usher in the Anti Christ.

This is a controversial passage and I'm still researching the background for it, but I'll ask, what do you think this means?

Ok let's give this a try. Looks like fun.

Mark 13
5Jesus said to them: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 6Many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and will deceive many.

"Liberal churches" who have openly gay bishops, other churches who protect pedophiles, churches who are more interested in "social justice" than spreading the word of God and the gift of Christ, and a whole litany of churches who flat out create God in their image...I don't understand why they even bother to call themselves Christian because they are so diametricly opposed to the Christian faith.

One night on the news, four or five years ago maybe, I heard about this church who were going to start marrying gay men and women. These people took a gift from God that was defined by Jesus as a union between a man and a woman and defiled it. I really thought that was going to be the last straw.

7When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 8Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.

This is pretty much self explainatory I guess. But I will say this, with the rise of the internet, cable tv, satelite tv, etc...there has been no time in our history, even though there have been wars going on all throughout time, that people have known about these things so quickly and widely. I think it was in the 1300's there was a massive war that took place in south eastern Africa between the Zulu's and another tribe and it was an absolute bloody mess. No one in the "west" knew about it until the 1850's or so.

9"You must be on your guard.

So why aren't Christians on their guard about the UN? Isn't this a warning?

You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them.

The ACLU sueing about crosses, nativity scenes, the Ten Commandments, Christmas pageants; Preachers being hauled into court in Europe for preaching against homosexuality, preaching that it is a sin, a preacher in Texas being hauled into court for printing a $1,000,000 bill as a religious tract. Now how in the wide world of sports do you counterfeit a currentcy which doesn't exist?

10And the gospel must first be preached to all nations.

You can check that one off your list. I really can't think of anywhere that doesn't have Christian missionaries.

11Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

Pretty self explainatory.

Sorry about the earlier post, I had a headache and the post was kinda pathetic.

 

[intricatic]

Yeah, I know where you're coming from and I totally agree. I wouldn't go so far as to say that those who support the UN aren't Chrisitians, but I would say that these things have been foretold and they're expected. Regardless of how one interprets the signs, Christianity should never have been a political movement, or politically involved. I mean, it's one thing voting and doing one's part in the political system, but true Christianity will be persecuted wherever it goes by the political structure, to one degree or another. Just like Israel was persecuted and constantly at odds with the world in the OT. When Christianity ceases to be persecuted, that's when serious problems begin to arise in the Church.

But to interpret that passage, to a great degree, read Acts. The early Church faced persecution. Today's Church faces trivial inconveniences in contrast.

 

[chrismon]

I've never understood why Christians would support the UN. Being a Libertarian I don't understand ...

I don't understand why a Christian would be a Libertarian. The religion of other-directedness meets the politics of self-directedness. I just don't see how selflessness and selfishness can work together.

 

[intricatic]

I don't understand why a Christian would be a Libertarian. The religion of other-directedness meets the politics of self-directedness. I just don't see how selflessness and selfishness can work together.

Because the other end is focused on envy in reaction to capitalism. Freedom from governmental mandate allows for charity and social work to be more pure.

 

[Dmckay]

I've never understood why Christians would support the UN. Being a Libertarian I don't understand why ANYONE would support the UN

While your points for Christians and Libertarians rejecting the UN are valid and applicable, I can't believe that any sane American would support the UN. It is socialist, that is understood, but it is one of the biggest collections of anti-American, anti-freedom bashers around. That any President would ever put American troops under the leadership of these losers and turn our military into a uniformed meals-on-wheels should be punishable as treason.

As a former, long-time Ranger it galls me that fellow Rangers were murdered, desecrated, and their bodies dragged naked through the streets of Somalia while their warlords practice slavery of their own people and condone the murder of any and all Christians. And all of this was done under the control of the UN. Somalia, and for that matter, every other country that the UN has tried to "help" is much worse off because of the UN.

 

[chrismon]

Because the other end is focused on envy in reaction to capitalism. Freedom from governmental mandate allows for charity and social work to be more pure.

Essentially you have claimed that the work of the Gospel can be more effective if we get the government to behave or organize under a certain set of priciples. If you offer them power over the people of God to do the work of the Gospel, you've got some confusion regarding Who is actually in charge of this world. I'm sure you do not think that Jesus failed when he died by the hands of the Romans and the Jewish leadership?

Has it occured to you that we can love one another irregardless of the government's stance on charity and social work... and that such work's effectiveness is the property of God and not human, even Christian, effort?

Have you read John H. Yoder's "The Politics of Jesus"? I think you might enjoy it. Its a great exegesis (mostly of Luke), looking into Jesus' (and so the Church's) relationship with human governments. It brings to the forefront the fundamental difference between the missions of the Church and that of human government, as well as highlighting the error of the Church in fooling itself by thinking that these two Powers, which are essentially in total conflict, can serve one another.

Another book, that's an easier read, is Lee C. Camp's "Mere Discipleship". His book largely addresses on Yoder's topics but in a less critical manner, instead showing the direct connections between Yoder's ideas and christian discipleship. This one is actually a really fun read.

 

[intricatic]

Essentially you have claimed that the work of the Gospel can be more effective if we get the government to behave or organize under a certain set of priciples. If you offer them power over the people of God to do the work of the Gospel, you've got some confusion regarding Who is actually in charge of this world. I'm sure you do not think that Jesus failed when he died by the hands of the Romans and the Jewish leadership?

Um, hello. I'm saying that government is not compatible with Christianity, and those who think it is, are fooling themselves. Perhaps I should have made it more clear.

I'm also saying that government is a corrupt secular office, and this condition cannot be altered until Christ returns.

Has it occured to you that we can love one another irregardless of the government's stance on charity and social work... and that such work's effectiveness is the property of God and not human, even Christian, effort?

I should hope so, considering that you essentially just rephrased what I'm saying. However, private charity has been proven, time and again, to be more effective than the government; so of course, I'm all for limiting the secular government for a variety of different reasons.

Have you read John H. Yoder's "The Politics of Jesus"? I think you might enjoy it. Its a great exegesis (mostly of Luke), looking into Jesus' (and so the Church's) relationship with human governments. It brings to the forefront the fundamental difference between the missions of the Church and that of human government, as well as highlighting the error of the Church in fooling itself by thinking that these two Powers, which are essentially in total conflict, can serve one another.

I've never read it. However, I can agree with this point, the government and the Church will always be at odds, or at least should remain separate for the health of the Church.

 

[romanov]

Please do not feel I am a slacker, but I have to run into Anchorage today. I will answer all post but today it will be around 7 pm my time.

 

[illudium_phosdex]

I don't understand why a Christian would be a Libertarian. The religion of other-directedness meets the politics of self-directedness. I just don't see how selflessness and selfishness can work together.

Honestly I don't see how a Christian could belong to any political party which enforces morality. It is a choice to accept the gift God gave us; that gift being his Son. Once you accept that gift, you should want to do what is right in the eyes of God. Not only should you want to do these things but you should want to do it without boasting about the wonderful works you have performed.

When the government legislates morality (ie Social Security, medicare, medicaid...all these programs for the poor), it takes away from you the chance to do these things of your own free will. My family is not considered "rich." There are many times I've had to say no to a noble or charitable cause because we simply didn't have the funds to do so. Might it be possible that I could have donated if I had been able to keep the taxes taken out of mine and my husbands pay checks to cover these things I mentioned earlier?

And you might say that if I don't have the money then it might be possible to donate my time. Not when I and my husband are both having to work two jobs because of the heavy burden of these taxes.

The other thing this takes away from you is the ability to do charitable works "in secret" as Jesus commanded us to do. Every one knows that if you work, you have these taxes taken out of your check to cover these programs to help the needy. Where is the secrecy?

 

[intricatic]

On love.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;

 

[Dmckay]

Honestly I don't see how a Christian could belong to any political party which enforces morality. It is a choice to accept the gift God gave us; that gift being his Son. Once you accept that gift, you should want to do what is right in the eyes of God. Not only should you want to do these things but you should want to do it without boasting about the wonderful works you have performed.

When the government legislates morality (ie Social Security, medicare, medicaid...all these programs for the poor), it takes away from you the chance to do these things of your own free will. My family is not considered "rich." There are many times I've had to say no to a noble or charitable cause because we simply didn't have the funds to do so. Might it be possible that I could have donated if I had been able to keep the taxes taken out of mine and my husbands pay checks to cover these things I mentioned earlier?

And you might say that if I don't have the money then it might be possible to donate my time. Not when I and my husband are both having to work two jobs because of the heavy burden of these taxes.

The other thing this takes away from you is the ability to do charitable works "in secret" as Jesus commanded us to do. Every one knows that if you work, you have these taxes taken out of your check to cover these programs to help the needy. Where is the secrecy?

ALL Laws are an attempt to force morality. The only other choice (in a world full of non-Christians) is anarchy. The only real question open to us then, is whose view of morality are those laws going to come from. More often than not, if you trace the original reasons for a law being suggested and passed, there was usually a good reason that the law was suggested. The process of taking it from a bill to a Law is where much of the trouble enters in.

 

[illudium_phosdex]

On love.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;

That is exactly what I was saying! When the government takes these poor taxes out of my wages, I can guarantee it is not given with love. Quite the oposite, in fact. Where as if I were able to disburse my money to the charitie of my own volition, it would most definately be a love offering.

I'll go ahead and tell you the one of the reasons this money is not given in love is because where medicaid is concerned, a woman who finds herself pregnant can go to the local medicaid office and apply, then use medicaid to pay for an abortion. I am pretty much totally against abortion so I feel that my money is being used in a way which is in complete oposition to my own moral code.