The Two Witnesses

[devin553344]

I am inclined to believe that seeking a sign with an open heart in the right attitude is OK but demanding a sign in unbelief is a different thing...

Thanks I think that clarifies the idea for Christian thinking for me now. I noticed that we have a "Sign Gifts" forum in the "Spiritual Gifts" area in CF. I was wondering about how signs were OK

 

[D.A. Wright]

If all christians are the church, why the heck nobody is getting ready then, isn't the church suppose to be preparing herself?

Getting ready suggests a process over time. We are commanded to be ready.

So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. (Matthew 24:44)

 

[Carl Emerson]

Thanks I think that clarifies the idea for Christian thinking for me now. I noticed that we have a "Sign Gifts" forum in the "Spiritual Gifts" area in CF. I was wondering about how signs were OK

I was caught up with what Jesus was doing back in the 70's and have ever since had a focus on obedience rather than "operating in the Gifts" This has been more in the market place than in the Church.
Case on point I came to a church and as I walked in the door I was given a word for the pastor. This I delivered to Him privately and he burst into tears... clearly it was the right word at the right time.
Next Sunday he had a line of people for me to prophesy over... !! I could no more deliver a word than fly to the moon. With me it is obedience first, but the church doesn't teach that - it is all about 'operating in a gift'. This leads to all sorts of deceptions. So I am not strong on theology but rather seeking to be childlike in obedience and watching my Father do stuff. Being led to particular folks for His purposes not 'operating a gift' with whoever. Sorry for the ramble...

 

[Carl Emerson]

With the Lady in Jerusalem there was already a miracle to simply hear Him, obey and arrive at exactly the right time to pray before she would have died. We seem to complicate things too much and miss the basics of hearing Him and obeying. Also in my experience He turns on the gifts not me... The idea of 'practicing the gifts' makes no sense at all. I never first saw healing because I thought I had a gift. I just simply started praying for folks in simple obedience to scripture. Confess your sins one to another and pray for one another that you may be healed. What could be simpler. But few do it.

 

[Guojing]

Spiritually through the revived Body of Christ after the third temple is built...?

I try to interpret literally as far as I can, that is why I believe Elijah will be one of the 2 witnesses.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I try to interpret literally as far as I can, that is why I believe Elijah will be one of the 2 witnesses.

I think it will be the 'Spirit of Elijah' operating through two obedient believers. But that is a hunch, I have no authority to teach that.

 

[Jonaitis]

Upon what exactly do you base your assumption of lack of implication in the text? Conversely, what would you see as implying a dual prophecy in Matthew 24 (in the text itself), which nearly the entirety of Christendom recognizes today?

It has dual application, but not dual prophecy. I think you are confusing the two.

 

[D.A. Wright]

Fulfillment, application, prophecy. I don't see the difference, in the context of this discussion. If we can't determine and define our terms, we're just dancing around the Mulberry bush. Please enlighten me?

 

[ilovejcsog]

Those who have experienced miracles still believe they are possible.

 

[timewerx]

Except the two witnesses were from God not the other side...

Not really serious about Hitler lol!

But if you think very carefully about it, the two witnesses would strike the Earth with many bad things, strike their enemies with fire, they would obviously kill a lot of people....

And then the whole world will celebrate their deaths. It about parallels the events of WW2.

Many would fail to recognize the two Witnesses. They probably would be seen as evil villains even by Christians.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Many would fail to recognize the two Witnesses. They probably would be seen as evil villains even by Christians.

Yes that is exactly my point...

 

[swordsman1]

My wife and children prayed for a friend who fell from a roof. The hospital confirmed that the Xray showed broken bones in his foot. He came home on crutches but was very concerned that he couldn't work. After prayer he could walk normally and didn't need the crutches. The following Sunday at church he testified to what had happened and to his surprise the Hospital Registrar was in the congregation and stood up to testify. He had supervised the treatment and confirmed that he saw the Xrays and without a miracle he would not be able to walk like he was. I can supply the name on a PM if needed.

Am I expected to believe a miracle occurred from this brief and vague story from a stranger on the internet?

If a genuine miracle occurred then why has this medical professional only shared his findings with his church? If he has the X-rays and the signed testimony of the radiographer and other professional witnesses why hasn't he submitted the proof to peer-reviewed medical journals to prove to the scientific community that God exists? That would be a far more valuable testimony than just sharing it with the church. Without putting the evidence up for scientific scrutiny means a skeptic will immediately smell a rat.

I would like nothing more than God to demonstrate his power to a skeptical world, just as he did in the first century. He is certainly able to do so. But the fact is he doesn't, and that leads me to conclude that he now wants people to believe on the basis of faith, and not by demonstrations of power. Wishful thinking, propagating rumours, exaggerating, or even counterfeiting to conjure up miracles when they haven't really occured does more harm than good to the Christian Church.

 

[swordsman1]

I am inclined to believe that seeking a sign with an open heart in the right attitude is OK but demanding a sign in unbelief is a different thing...

If you are seeking signs then you only have to open your Bible. There are hundreds of genuine miracles recorded there that give testimony to God's power and give a boost to your faith. And God's infallible word is far more reliable than any dubious hearsay account that is presented today. The miracles in scripture are more than sufficient to cast away any doubts....

John 20:30 "Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."​

If we are seeking more signs beyond that which have already been given then we rejecting the above scripture and we become like the Pharisees. They were given sufficient signs and wonders to demonstrate who Jesus really was, but still they wanted more before they would believe. Their greed for miracles labelled them as being wicked and adulterous by Jesus.

Better than seeking after new miracles is taking God at His Word. Simple faith is more pleasing to God than a reliance on sensational stories, real or imagined. Jesus said to Thomas, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed" (John 20:29).

 

[timothyu]

They probably would be seen as evil villains even by Christians.

The fact that they would, shows a majority of Christians already side with evil and the adversary in supporting the institutions of man.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Hi there,

If the gifts have ceased - and the word no longer needs to be confirmed with signs - Will we assume that the two witnesses are fraudulent?

Does the word of God still need supernatural confirmation? Conversion through the power of the Holy Spirit is all that is needed and that has never gone away. Any witnessing is through the spoken word of the Gospel.
Blessings

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

 

[charsan]

That was not my position, I was just summarising the different positions that had been expressed.
Sorry for any misunderstanding.

Sorry about that

 

[Carl Emerson]

Am I expected to believe a miracle occurred from this brief and vague story from a stranger on the internet?

If a genuine miracle occurred then why has this medical professional only shared his findings with his church? If he has the X-rays and the signed testimony of the radiographer and other professional witnesses why hasn't he submitted the proof to peer-reviewed medical journals to prove to the scientific community that God exists? That would be a far more valuable testimony than just sharing it with the church. Without putting the evidence up for scientific scrutiny means a skeptic will immediately smell a rat.

I would like nothing more than God to demonstrate his power to a skeptical world, just as he did in the first century. He is certainly able to do so. But the fact is he doesn't, and that leads me to conclude that he now wants people to believe on the basis of faith, and not by demonstrations of power. Wishful thinking, propagating rumours, exaggerating, or even counterfeiting to conjure up miracles when they haven't really occured does more harm than good to the Christian Church.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Sorry friend but you are seriously out of touch with what God is doing in this age.

 

[Carl Emerson]

If you are seeking signs then you only have to open your Bible. There are hundreds of genuine miracles recorded there that give testimony to God's power and give a boost to your faith. And God's infallible word is far more reliable than any dubious hearsay account that is presented today. The miracles in scripture are more than sufficient to cast away any doubts....

John 20:30 "Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."​

If we are seeking more signs beyond that which have already been given then we rejecting the above scripture and we become like the Pharisees. They were given sufficient signs and wonders to demonstrate who Jesus really was, but still they wanted more before they would believe. Their greed for miracles labelled them as being wicked and adulterous by Jesus.

Better than seeking after new miracles is taking God at His Word. Simple faith is more pleasing to God than a reliance on sensational stories, real or imagined. Jesus said to Thomas, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed" (John 20:29).

I have never sought a sign personally period.

Simply reporting what I have seen Him do in response to simple obedience to His Word.

 

[D.A. Wright]

Not really serious about Hitler lol!

But if you think very carefully about it, the two witnesses would strike the Earth with many bad things, strike their enemies with fire, they would obviously kill a lot of people....

And then the whole world will celebrate their deaths. It about parallels the events of WW2.

Many would fail to recognize the two Witnesses. They probably would be seen as evil villains even by Christians.

hitler and lol do not go together in any polite discussion, Friend.