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The Two witnesses

Discussion in 'Israel Prophecy & Current Events' started by Flavius665, Apr 7, 2004.

  1. Flavius665

    Flavius665 New Member

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    I'de like to hear what others thought of the two witnesses and who they are.
    Myself I believe they are Joshuah and Caleb being of the concept that Joshuah son of none is a gentile and Caleb of Judah. Northern kingdom Southern Kingdom.Like the two sons of Moses Gershom{stranger} Eliezer{son of my house} like the prodicle son,One son left hom and mingled with swine{disrespect of Torah} and became as a dead man cast off but when he comes back home his father accepts him again.I believe the two witnesses are multitudes of people who know longer stand within the court of gentiles but they are gentiles and jews who have progressed into the Holy place and Holy of Holies in a progressive walk striving to become closer to God.Revelations 11 go and measure the temple proper and the people who worship there but leave out the court of gentiles and I will give power to my two witnesses,Meaning those who have entered into the temple proper in their walk with G-d. :clap:
     
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  2. Henaynei

    Henaynei Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai Echud! Al pi Adonai...

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    One real difficulty with that is that Caleb (heb = Kelev = dog = gentile) was also a gentile (See below) - he and Y'hoshua were part of the mixed multitude that stood at the foot of the mountain and said "we will obey and we will understand." When they became part of Israel, they also became part of different tribes, Kelev became part of Y'huda/Judah. It is a sobering thing to think on that the ONLY members of the assembly at the foot of Sinai who made it into the Land were both born Gentiles.

    B'Midbar/Num 32:11 'None of the men who came up from Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I swore to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob; for they did not follow Me fully, 12 except Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite and Joshua the son of Nun, for they have followed the LORD fully.'

    Kenizzite = of [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][font=Arial, Helvetica]Ke’naz[/font] [font=Arial, Helvetica](hunting ).
    1. Son of Eliphaz the son of Esau. He was one of the dukes of Edom. (Genesis 36:15,42; 1 Chronicles 1:53)

    [/font]
    [/font]
     
  3. Sephania

    Sephania Well-Known Member

    +369
    My personal stance on these two over the years remain that it is Enoch ( pre-flood witness who knew Adam,Seth,Enos,Cainan,,Mahalaleel, and of course Jared his father, Methuseleh, his son (the oldest man ever) as well as Lamech, Noah's father, and the seventh from Adam.

    And Elijah, the "king of the prophets" who is looked forward to as coming to herald the coming of Messiah.

    Aren't these two supposed to be witnessing right before the return of Messiah?

    I think Moshe, done seen and did enough on this here earth already! ;)
     
  4. Flavius665

    Flavius665 New Member

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    I have had this discussion with someone else also from paltalk but we never did agree,I just know in numbers 13-6 he is listed as the tribe of judah and elsewhere called a prince of Judah,to my understanding Kenizite is the area he lived in .like david who was called and ephraimite.but like I said I never agreed with that other person allbiet I considered him more knowlegable than myself on the matter :help:
     
  5. Henaynei

    Henaynei Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai Echud! Al pi Adonai...

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    Once a gentile converts they are a full member of Israel. Caleb was indeed a "prince" or leader of Judah. Mosh'e elevated him at the behest of G-d due to his faithfulness. As I mentioned in my piece above, once a gentile became a Jew they were "fit in" to a tribe - there was not the 13th tribe, the tribe of once-was-genitles ;)

    He WAS a gentile, he IS a Jew ;)
     
  6. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    +6,457
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    You know what makes the two witnesses stand out as compared to the 144,000 and the multitude that no man can number? It is the closeness to the Lord that they walk. They have gone into the holiest of holy and received the little book that is sweet to the taste and bitter to the stomach. They are strong in the Lord and will stand up before all leaders of the world and preach the last message that God will give this world. They work miracles probably in the face of great miracle copycats "unclean spirits like frogs that come out of the dragon, beast, and false prophet." Like Moses they will boldly stand in the courts of this world and testify to the Lord, the truth, the testimony of Yeshua and the Torah.

    So, what does it take for these two to get to the point of having this kind of spiritual strength? If they are like Moses, they will have personal character defects that they Lord will have to deal with first. If they are like Elijah, they will have to set themselves apart to learn from the Lord only. If they are like John the Baptist, they will probably come from the wilderness, where they have communed with the Lord for some time. One thing that stands out with all these individuals is the fact that they all had an experience with God that was closer than those around them. SO, what does it take to have a closer experience with God, so that we may also be a part of the world last great light and message?

    1. Have Yeshua open up your Book of Life and go over it with you. For he is the only one capable of showing you the depth of sin. Since sin separates you from God, it is extremely important to be cleansed of all sin, in preparation for a invitation to the courts of heaven, in vision.

    2. Visions, now that is a experience that a lot of people are unsure of. Understandable, but it is one of the methods that God uses to communicate with the prophets and apostles. If we want to have this closer walk, we need to be mentally prepared to accept the workings of the Lord are not our way. To have spiritual understanding of some things, the Lord can not always work with the way it is understood at this time. Sometimes what it takes is an experience that is outside the usual to open up our eyes to the reality of God and His ways.

    3. Yeshua promised to those that ask they will receive, to those that seek they would find. He wants us to ask and receive the riches of blessings, and what better than a taste of heaven. If He would take you in a dream into the courts of heaven and showed you the city and the temple and all that is there, would you not long all the more for Ysehua to return so that you could live there? If you were in the courts of heaven in vision and were brought back to earth would you not find the filth, sickness, violence, and sin offense to a degree that would be made sharper by the experience.

    Would you not be better prepared in understanding as to who, what, and why things that happen on earth are as God foretold? And with this rest assurance that it is all in God's capable hands, more focused on witnessing to the truth and the testimony of Jesus and His soon return.

    4. The Lord is looking for just such people to stand up and say Here Lord, Here I am, send me. The Lord is looking for those that are willing to take up the cross and follow him. In the last days, men will dream dreams and have visions, and two will witness to the world the truth as it happens so that the world may repent of its deeds.

    The two witnesses are called witnesses instead of prophets because what they predict happens. They have been to the courts of heaven and have been with God and understand what is necessary for the last harvest. They are going to be making the last call to all the world. They know that time is up and tribulation like the world has ever seen will be upon us. They will be the last warning this world will receive and then we are all plunged into the depths of evil and its fruits to desolation point.

    I believe there are two of them because they are also, by the fact they are two witnesses, the indication that the fall feasts are now being fulfilled in literal time and prophetic events as foretold in the feast's drama.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2017
  7. Laureate

    Laureate whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?

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    Îyésʰûwəʰ said the hour shall come as it is now.....meaning the same two witnesses from the first Advent will be the same two witnesses in he second advent....for Elijah shall surely come firat, and restore all things.
     
  8. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Elijah came in the spirit, but it was John the Baptist who preached. Same thing will happen again, the Spirit of Elijah will be upon one of the witnesses and they will preach like he did.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2017
  9. Laureate

    Laureate whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?

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    How can Elijah herald the Great and dreadful day when no one but the Father knows the day day, or hour?


    "And I saw another Angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting Gospel to Preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

    Saying with a loud voice, Revere Elohym, and give glory to him; for the Hour of his Judgment has Come: and Worship the One who made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." [Revelations 14:6-7]

    This particular Angel has a dual identifiable signature that is unique from any other Angel that's sent;

    There is no one who knows the Day or Hour but the Father, and the only Angel we know that's commissioned to Come before the Great and Dreadful Day of Îyéhûwəʰ is Elijah, whom the Salvation of Îyéhûwəʰ not only referred to as Father, but also declared Him to be Greater than himself;
     
  10. Guide To The Bible

    Guide To The Bible Guide To The Bible

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    Good post but they are also called prophets:

    Revelation 11:10
    The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
     
  11. Guide To The Bible

    Guide To The Bible Guide To The Bible

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    Has the Spirit been prompting you?
     
  12. Guide To The Bible

    Guide To The Bible Guide To The Bible

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    When Jesus said ‘no one knows the day’ He said it in the present tense, He did not say no one would ever know and elsewhere God the Father says:

    Amos 3:7 – Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.

    Elijah the prophet knows the day.
     
  13. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    We are to know seasons. We are to hear the angel speak with a loud voice. As to Elijah preaching the great and dreadful day, I have seen many preach that subject, but i do not believe they will be able to preach it like Elijah.
     
  14. Laureate

    Laureate whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?

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    Yes!

    However let the fruits of an individual determine for you such things, and not the admission of our self declarations.
     
  15. Guide To The Bible

    Guide To The Bible Guide To The Bible

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    Yeah I noticed it straight away. 13 years that post sat there and you where prompted to tell others what you were given by the Spirit about Elijah. Anything else you would like to tell us?
     
  16. Laureate

    Laureate whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?

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    And who is that faithful servant that the lord shall make a ruler over all his goods?

    Yet if he be found eating adeating drinking with the drunkards, the lord shall return at an hour he is not aware...

    This is a warning to Father Elijah who as you recall, came neither eating nor drinking/

    Notice how the warning is addressed to one who apparently is aware of the Hour;

    As the many members of His body we, as you inferred, know in part, yet as it pertains to time the scriptures are specific, a faithful servant may know what watch (a three hour span) in the night, but only the Father knows which ay, and which hour.
     
  17. Guide To The Bible

    Guide To The Bible Guide To The Bible

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    Malichi 4
    5“See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. 6He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”

    Yep it's a big warning Elijah has over him but he will know the day, so as Christians we should be looking for Elijah to be a date setter, (like Daniel was). Date setters are not generally liked by Christian's but then all God's prophets were not generally liked by 'God's people'.

    Matthew 23:37
    "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."

    The World hates the truth.
     
  18. Laureate

    Laureate whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?

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    That was my point, Elijah is the Father seeing how he knows the Day, and Hour;

    This is also an indication that John the Baptist (the Greatest person ever born of a woman) was the Father;

    For John means Grace, and the Son (who is full of Grace) was in the bosom of the Father (John) Declaring Elohym, that we may know that the Father (Grace) is in the Son, and the Son is in the Father;

    "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of Grace and truth." [John 1:14]

    "No man has seen Elohym at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." [John 1:18]

    "For the Father himself, which has sent me, has borne witness of me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.


    And you have not his word abiding in you: for whom he has sent, him you believe not." [John 5:37-38]

    Elohym has not been seen or heard only because of disbelief in the one whom was sent.
     
  19. Laureate

    Laureate whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?

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    The Sons testimony was Greater than the Father's testimony because the Son was Declaring the Father, and the Father was Declaring the Son.
     
  20. Guide To The Bible

    Guide To The Bible Guide To The Bible

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    So you believe Elijah and John the Baptist were in fact God the Father incarnate on Earth? Or have I misunderstood you?
     
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