The Two Kingdoms: Of God & Of Man

MrJim · Aug 4, 2006

I would like us to flesh out this teaching. I believe that it is a lost teaching that needs to be thoroughly examined. It has been touched on here and there.

ZiSunka · Aug 4, 2006

Yes, I strongly believe there are two kingdoms, earthly kingdoms and the heavenly kingdom.We belong to both. We have dual citizenship, so to speak. We are here in this earthly kingdom, but it is not our natural home. We are in this world, but not of it. We can have citizenship in our home country and in heaven at the same time (just try to get a passport from Heaven, or to get the guys at Immigration to accept such a passport). The reality is that as long as we have these mortal bodies, we are dual citizens. I also believe strongly that it is an upsidedown kingdom.

tulc · Aug 5, 2006

Ever read this?

Hans Schnell said:
(Little is known about Hans Schnell except that he was a Swiss Brethren Anabaptist who sometimes went by the name Hans Beck. In 1541 his wife, Margarete, was imprisoned for her faith. He left the faith for some 14 years, but had returned by 1575 and was an elder, baptizing, and preaching at night in the fields in the area of Urbach and Gottingen in south Germany. The following document dates to about 1575 but retains immediacy because it still sums up the position of many Christian pacifists, and because among the enemies early Anabaptists refused to fight were aggressive Ottoman Turksa serious Muslim threat in Europe.) There are two different kingdoms on earthnamely, the kingdom of this world and the peaceful kingdom of Christ. These two kingdoms cannot share or have communion with each other.The people in the kingdom of this world are born of the flesh, are earthly and carnally minded. The people in the kingdom of Christ are reborn of the Holy Spirit, live according to the Spirit, and are spiritually minded. The people in the kingdom of the world are equipped for fighting with carnal weaponsspear, sword, armor, guns, and powder. The people in Christ's kingdom are equipped with spiritual weaponsthe armor of God, the shield of faith, and the sword of the Spirit to fight against the devil, the world, and their own flesh, together with all that arises against God and his Word. The people in the kingdom of this world fight for a perishable crown and an earthly kingdom. The people in Christ's kingdom fight for an imperishable crown and an eternal kingdom.Christ made these two kingdoms at variance with each other and separated. There will therefore be no peace between them. In the end, however, Christ will crush and destroy all the other kingdoms with his power and eternal kingdom. But his will remain eternally. When God made his covenant with Noah after the flood, he commanded vengeance and punishment with the power of the sword to punish the evil and put to death the blood guilty and murderers, saying, "Whoso sheddeth men's blood, by man shall his blood be shed." This vengeance to punish evil has remained unaltered in the kingdom of this world with its temporal authority and will remain until the Last Day of his coming, when God will annihilate all the power of this world. Christ also testifies to this when he commanded Peter: "Put up your sword." From these words of Christ we learn that the power of the sword will remain in the kingdom of this world to put to death the blood guilty and murderers according to his Father's order.But in his kingdom peace should be kept, as he says to Peter: Put up thy sword in its sheath and let them proceed. For that reason he healed Malchus' ear at once, and does not want Christians to fight with the sword for their lives.Concerning this power of the sword Paul teaches us, saying: "The powers that be are of God. For rulers are not a terror to good works but to the evil." Also: "He beareth not the sword in vain, for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."The power of the sword in the kingdom of this world is ordained and commanded by God, and whoever resists the ruler, unless he orders what is against God, resists God's order. But if the authorities command something that is against God, I say with Peter and John: "It is better to obey God than men." Likewise the three men in the fiery furnace and Daniel in the lion's den.Paul's words cited above prove that the vocation of government and the vocation of the Christian are diametrically opposed to each other, like light and darkness.Therefore the government is a good institution in the world, in that it punishes the bad and protects him who does good. For if there were no government, one could not keep order on earth. Each would then do violence to the other.But Christ has given those in his kingdom a very different calling and office. "Recompense to no man evil for evil." Also: "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves but rather give place unto wrath. For it is written, 'Vengeance is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord.'" Further: "If thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good."The government is taught to execute vengeance and slay the blood guilty and murderers. In the New Testament Christians are forbidden all revenge and resistance; they are not to resist evil. Peter merely wants permission to ask for revenge. But Christ not only refuses him this, but reprimands him for it, saying: "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of." A Christian in the peaceful kingdom of Christ has a loving, peaceable, merciful spirit in the manner of Christ's. He forgives the penitent sinner all sin and transgression. He does not resist evil. He kills nobody physically. He does not preserve his possessions with force but rather presents also the other cheek rather than to oppose the one who strikes him with force. He does not war. He does not injure and kill people but prays for those who persecute and rob him. He who is born again through the Spirit has his Father's nature and qualities in him and is minded as Jesus Christ was minded. Christ not only forbade revenge in his kingdom but also, but his death on the cross, left us an example for us to follow in his footsteps, and prayed for his foes on the cross, which believers also do. God uses the government as his minister, whether it performs well or badly. If they are tyrants, God uses them as his rod of punishment, who will, however, at the proper time be held accountable to their Superior and will have to render an exceedingly strict account, as it is written: "The powerful will suffer powerful pain."

Got this here: <a href="http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/139/56.0.htmltulc(" target="_blank">http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/139/56.0.html

tulc · Aug 5, 2006

Man something is wigging out on this site tonight!tulc(hopes we don't crash again!)

MrJim · Aug 5, 2006

Excellent post tulc. That is the Two Kingdoms. Can we have dual citizenship--isn't that attempting to serve two masters?

ZiSunka · Aug 5, 2006

Excellent tulc!I agree wholeheartedly that the kingdom of God and the citizens of God's kingdom, should have no part in military matters or in providing for the military because the military is all about using death, violence and force.When I said we have dual citizenship, I was not at all implying that we somehow balance our service to God and our service to our country. There are plenty of unsaved people who are willing to serve our country, let the ones who never knew our Lord take our government as their master--we'll serve only God.But in a non-spiritual sense, we are still citizens of this country (whatever nation you live in), and have responsibilities to this nation--to pay our taxes, to respect our president, to obey our laws, to keep the peace with our community, to be kind to our neighbors, to help the poor and elderly, to provide for the education of the nation's children, to abide by the laws of travel to other countries (including obtaining a passport from our home country before we travel abroad), and in this nation, the responsibility to vote.I say responsibility because God ordained this nation to come into being; I doubt anyone would disagree with that. And God ordained that this nation would have public participation in the government. To refuse to participate by voting is to tell God you don't like the system he made for us in this place at this time.In the 1200's and 1300's in Europe, no one had the write to vote. Everyone was subject to their king. To say that we shouldn't vote because the early mennonites didn't vote is like saying we shouldn't use the internet because the early mennonites didn't use the internet--it's non sequitor!I strongly believe God allowed this country to be a republic as a test for us Christians, to give us the opportunity to have direct input into the decisions our leaders make, to see if we would be as faithful to his teachings on a huge scale as we are in our own homes.When we refuse to vote because the early Christians didn't vote or the early anabaptists didn't vote, we fail that test. We allow things like abortion to flourish, gay unions to be accepted and legalized, for no-fault divorce to be the law of the land, for polygamy, incest and pedaphilia to become integrated into our society. We are saying we don't care about evil, as long as it doesn't affect us. We are saying that our separation from the common man is so complete that we don't care about the well-being of anyone who isn't a Christian.I doubt that is a message God would approve of.And that's why so many thousands of Amish registered and voted. And I think they did the right thing. Unless we stand up in the public forum and let people know we object to immorality, they are going to assume we don't care, and then they will really be right when they call us hypocrites.

Danfrey · Aug 5, 2006

Decided to take a different approach. Disregard this message.

MrJim · Aug 6, 2006

Standing in the public forum and declaring what laws ought to be? Like Jesus did?

Yeah, I know we live in a different age with a different gov't...but I'm trying to picture Christ in the public political forum...no, not running for office but somehow walking that perfect holy line in these issues.

As "cut and dried" as things often seem to be it would be like Him to do something that would appear to be "upside down" for us.

Danfrey · Aug 11, 2006

Funny, that in many cases we can't get Church politics under control and many in our numbers would like to participate in world politics.

I think many times we expect the government to pick up the slack that the church is refusing to carry.
- Do something about the hungry
- House the homeless
- Enforce sexual immorality
- If we could get this one right in the church we would be taking a big step in the right direction.

ZiSunka · Aug 12, 2006

- Do something about the hungry
- House the homeless
- Enforce sexual immorality
- If we could get this one right in the church we would be taking a big step in the right direction.

Churches as institutions don't seem interested in anything but adding numbers to the membership.

It's left up to individuals and parachurch organizations to do those things.

MrJim · Aug 12, 2006

WalkInHisFootsteps said:
Churches as institutions don't seem interested in anything but adding numbers to the membership.

It's left up to individuals and parachurch organizations to do those things.

?Maybe it's time to walk away from the institution....?

ZiSunka · Aug 12, 2006

menno said:
?Maybe it's time to walk away from the institution....?

I think that's where you and I and Danfrey are right now, aren't we?

Danfrey · Aug 13, 2006

I am outside the institution at the moment, but it looks like we are headed back into it to a certain point. I am looking in to the Conservative Mennonite Conference churches as a place for my family to attend. I find that with two teenagers it makes alot of sense to have the strucure an institution brings. I never thought I would be looking at leaving house churches, but for now it appears there is a better solution for my family.

I agree that it is a shame that institutional churches have forgotten why we are to give. The first priority is to take care of the widows and orphans. It is not to pay for the local radio spot, or build a gym in the church or buy new uniforms for the church softball league.

MrJim · Aug 13, 2006

Danfrey said:
I am outside the institution at the moment, but it looks like we are headed back into it to a certain point. I am looking in to the Conservative Mennonite Conference churches as a place for my family to attend. I find that with two teenagers it makes alot of sense to have the strucure an institution brings. I never thought I would be looking at leaving house churches, but for now it appears there is a better solution for my family.

I agree that it is a shame that institutional churches have forgotten why we are to give. The first priority is to take care of the widows and orphans. It is not to pay for the local radio spot, or build a gym in the church or buy new uniforms for the church softball league.

yeah a couple of churches bought ground around here and the first thing built was a softball field...one calls it a "ministry park".

ZiSunka · Aug 13, 2006

menno said:
yeah a couple of churches bought ground around here and the first thing built was a softball field...one calls it a "ministry park".

One church here just had a ribbon cutting yesterday on their ministry park. I have to say I don't think it's the worst idea in the world in their case. They are an innercity church and there are no safe places for the kids to play in their neighborhood, no parks, no playgrounds, no rec centers within a 4 mile radius, and the parks outside that range are in poor condition and are unsafe for the children. Most of the kids in that neighborhood are left home alone all day while the parents work. I think it's good for the church to take it upon themselves to provide a safe place for the kids, because during the daytime, they really are kind of like orphans.

But I agree that most churches spend most of the money buying fancier light fixtures and carpet and having softer cushions put on the pews and having ice cream socials to which no one outside their church ever comes, and giving bonuses to the ministry staff and so on. I know one church that gave $5000 bonuses to their staff last year because they wanted them to "have the best Christmas ever." Like having a good Christmas has anything to do with having a lot of money.

MrJim · Aug 13, 2006

WalkInHisFootsteps said:
One church here just had a ribbon cutting yesterday on their ministry park. I have to say I don't think it's the worst idea in the world in their case. They are an innercity church and there are no safe places for the kids to play in their neighborhood, no parks, no playgrounds, no rec centers within a 4 mile radius, and the parks outside that range are in poor condition and are unsafe for the children. Most of the kids in that neighborhood are left home alone all day while the parents work. I think it's good for the church to take it upon themselves to provide a safe place for the kids, because during the daytime, they really are kind of like orphans.

Now see that is EXACTLY the sort of thing that needs to be done. The two churches I'm speaking of moved out of the city and one out into farm country. A lot of churches in town are moving out for greener pastures--I don't think it's intentional, but it does keep a certain "element" from just walking in the door

On the plus side, other's take over the building. One now has a hispanic pentecostal service and another is being bought by large charismatic church. Then I found out that the SBC church down the street is moving out into the 'burbs so I wonder who'll be taking theirs?

Jehane · Aug 13, 2006

Not sure if I've followed all the arguements & am on track here but one thing that happened here recently struck me as completely insane. A charismatic church has started up with the statement they want to reach as many lost as possible. Now don't get me wrong. I think that's a good thing. Unfortunately in the process they are not building up & strengthening or growing into maturity the Christians they have. Consequentially they are neither teaching nor discipling new believers & I think those two things are absolutely essential or we end up with people running round claiming to be Christians who don't have even the first principles right & that is not a good thing. We were going for a little while as it is at a different time to our regular service but can no longer attend in good conciouness.

Danfrey · Aug 13, 2006

Jehane,

We have the same problem here. In an effort to be seeker friendly, churches lay aside teaching doctrine. I agree that we need to open to seekers and reach out to the hurting, but not at the expense of discipleship. I see the message as "Come as you are", not "Stay as you are". Maybe there are lessons to be learned from the theologically deep churches and the seeker friendly churches. Let us learn from both, keep the good and grow beyond the bad.

Danfrey · Aug 13, 2006

Walkin,

That is the kind of sports park that I can support. The type I was critisizing is the type that is outside the church with a locked gate. Kind of liek the church that has the sign up in thier parking lot "Church parking only".

ZiSunka · Aug 13, 2006

Danfrey said:
Walkin,

That is the kind of sports park that I can support. The type I was critisizing is the type that is outside the church with a locked gate. Kind of liek the church that has the sign up in thier parking lot "Church parking only".

Yikes! I see what you mean then.

There used to be a church in West Milton that had a sign at the entrance to the parking lot that said, "Keep out. Authorized vehicles on official church business only." People would start to pull in for services, see the sign, then turn around and go away.

The signs were meant to keep tractor-trailers from parking in the lot overnight.

Eventually they figured out that that seems kind of unfriendly, like maybe only established members would have the right kind of "authorized" stickers or something.

So they changed the sign to "welcome." They didn't suddenly get visitors, though. After years of being put off by the "keep out" sign, the community had built up a resentment against the church.

I know the kind of "ministry park" you are talking about now. The kind where they call the cops because two little kids are playing ball there on the weekdays.

We Christians seem to do a lot of our own bad PR, if you ask me.

The Two Kingdoms: Of God & Of Man

Legend 3/17/05

It means 'yellow dog'

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loves "SO'S YER MOM!! posts!

Legend 3/17/05

It means 'yellow dog'

Warning -- Anabaptist views

Legend 3/17/05

Warning -- Anabaptist views

It means 'yellow dog'

Legend 3/17/05

It means 'yellow dog'

Warning -- Anabaptist views

Legend 3/17/05

It means 'yellow dog'

Legend 3/17/05

Well-Known Member

Warning -- Anabaptist views

Warning -- Anabaptist views

It means 'yellow dog'

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