The Tulip is broken

[His]

From the exegetical evidence, we can see that tou/to can neither have “grace” or “faith” as the antecedent since it is neuter while grace and faith are feminine. No Christian would argue that salvation is “of ourselves,” yet if one says that tou/to cannot refer to faith, then it also cannot refer to grace either since they are the same gender. Moreover, it would be redundant to say that tou/to refers to grace since by definition grace is something given by another. Rather, the antecedent is best understood as a conceptual whole-both grace and faith are gifts of God. Both the surface structure and deep structure affirm this interpretation. And in the broader context of the biblical canon, salvation is attributed to God alone as the sole efficient Cause of brings many sons to glory. Therefore, having considered the exegetical and biblical evidence, Ephesians 2:8a confirms the truth that our salvation, from beginning to end, is a gift from God

http://timmybrister.com/2007/08/08/the-alabama-baptist-and-dortian-calvinism-response-3/

 

[cygnusx1]

http://timmybrister.com/2007/08/08/the-alabama-baptist-and-dortian-calvinism-response-3/



From the exegetical evidence, we can see that tou/to can neither have “grace” or “faith” as the antecedent since it is neuter while grace and faith are feminine. No Christian would argue that salvation is “of ourselves,” yet if one says that tou/to cannot refer to faith, then it also cannot refer to grace either since they are the same gender. Moreover, it would be redundant to say that tou/to refers to grace since by definition grace is something given by another. Rather, the antecedent is best understood as a conceptual whole-both grace and faith are gifts of God. Both the surface structure and deep structure affirm this interpretation. And in the broader context of the biblical canon, salvation is attributed to God alone as the sole efficient Cause of brings many sons to glory. Therefore, having considered the exegetical and biblical evidence, Ephesians 2:8a confirms the truth that our salvation, from beginning to end, is a gift from God

that is precisely the understanding I came to without the "aid" of Greek.

 

[JDS]

I have said it before but let me say it again. It does not matter what any of these scholars say. This KJV that I have is written on a 5th grade level. Now who in their right mind is going to debate fifth grade material? (1)The context of Ep 2 is passing from death unto life. (2)That is in definition of salvation. Who would dare disagree with that? (3) It is about the gentiles being saved by grace and not the Jews. That is easy to understand. (4) The salvation he speaks of is the gift of God. (5) It is given, it is not earned.

(1) - Eph 2:1 And you (gentiles) [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; (See Verse 12 here). Dead - Quickened (Made alive). Death is separation from God. (See V 12 here).

(2) 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved). Uh-oh, together is a term of addition. You must have more than one to be together! So both Jews & gentiles were quickened, but not at the same time but both together with Christ. With is a different word than by.

(3) 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) He did not say by grace are we saved although he had just used the personal pronoun we in the same sentence. He knew what he was doing even if no one else does. The Jews were saved by a covenant promise and when the Spirit was given, one of those promises from Joel was quoted as being fulfilled by the giving of the Spirit. But they are both together in Christ, that is in his body. This is the mystery of Christ that is being revealed in the epistle. Keep the theme in mind when reading it.

(4) Quickening can not be achieved by ones own efforts. The scriptures says

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Let me shorten that some for clarity.

4 But God,
5 hath quickened us together with Christ
(By grace ye are saved) Salvation is the same as being quickened by grace

(5) The quickening is given. The subject has not been faith in the previous verses and faith is not the subject in v 8, The gift or the quickening or salvation is given through faith. The quickening is by God, not oneself. The grace (the Holy Ghost, who is life and does the quickening see Rom 8:11) is from God the Father, the faith comes from man. So by grace (of God) are ye (gentiles) saved (quickened) through faith and that (being quickened) not of yourselves, it (being quickened) is the gift (grace) of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.

The gift of God cannot be faith for many reasons, but the main reason is because the context will not allow it.

Therefore, it is a waste of time to seek out Greek scholars or high brow agenda driven religious professors that are wells without water. It is far better to seek out an honest fifth grade English teacher who will tell the truth.

 

[drstevej]

I have said it before but let me say it again. It does not matter what any of these scholars say. This KJV that I have is written on a 5th grade level. Now who in their right mind is going to debate fifth grade material?

Don't try this at home

 

[nobdysfool]

I have said it before but let me say it again. It does not matter what any of these scholars say. This KJV that I have is written on a 5th grade level. Now who in their right mind is going to debate fifth grade material? (1)The context of Ep 2 is passing from death unto life. (2)That is in definition of salvation. Who would dare disagree with that? (3) It is about the gentiles being saved by grace and not the Jews. That is easy to understand. (4) The salvation he speaks of is the gift of God. (5) It is given, it is not earned.

(1) - Eph 2:1 And you (gentiles) [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; (See Verse 12 here). Dead - Quickened (Made alive). Death is separation from God. (See V 12 here).

(2) 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved). Uh-oh, together is a term of addition. You must have more than one to be together! So both Jews & gentiles were quickened, but not at the same time but both together with Christ. With is a different word than by.

(3) 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) He did not say by grace are we saved although he had just used the personal pronoun we in the same sentence. He knew what he was doing even if no one else does. The Jews were saved by a covenant promise and when the Spirit was given, one of those promises from Joel was quoted as being fulfilled by the giving of the Spirit. But they are both together in Christ, that is in his body. This is the mystery of Christ that is being revealed in the epistle. Keep the theme in mind when reading it.

(4) Quickening can not be achieved by ones own efforts. The scriptures says

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Let me shorten that some for clarity.

4 But God,
5 hath quickened us together with Christ
(By grace ye are saved) Salvation is the same as being quickened by grace

(5) The quickening is given. The subject has not been faith in the previous verses and faith is not the subject in v 8, The gift or the quickening or salvation is given through faith. The quickening is by God, not oneself. The grace (the Holy Ghost, who is life and does the quickening see Rom 8:11) is from God the Father, the faith comes from man. So by grace (of God) are ye (gentiles) saved (quickened) through faith and that (being quickened) not of yourselves, it (being quickened) is the gift (grace) of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.

The gift of God cannot be faith for many reasons, but the main reason is because the context will not allow it.

Therefore, it is a waste of time to seek out Greek scholars or high brow agenda driven religious professors that are wells without water. It is far better to seek out an honest fifth grade English teacher who will tell the truth.

My mother was a fifth-grade teacher, and I can tell you that she would not have drawn the conclusion you just did, that Salvation is 2/3 God and 1/3 man. No way, no how. Salvation is a gift. Grace is a gift. Since Salvation comprises both Grace and Faith, and the word "that" ("and that not of yourselves"), refers to Salvation as a whole, fifth -grade English understanding results in Grace and Faith BOTH being gifts. Salvation is the gift. That which makes up the components of the gift are the same as the whole. The entire gift, and its constituent parts are all a gift of God. A gift which you contribute something to is not really a gift.

We know you believe the KJV is inspired, but you're wrong about that as well.

 

[JDS]

My mother was a fifth-grade teacher, and I can tell you that she would not have drawn the conclusion you just did, that Salvation is 2/3 God and 1/3 man. No way, no how. Salvation is a gift. Grace is a gift. Since Salvation comprises both Grace and Faith, and the word "that" ("and that not of yourselves"), refers to Salvation as a whole, fifth -grade English understanding results in Grace and Faith BOTH being gifts. Salvation is the gift. That which makes up the components of the gift are the same as the whole. The entire gift, and its constituent parts are all a gift of God. A gift which you contribute something to is not really a gift.

We know you believe the KJV is inspired, but you're wrong about that as well.

That is a silly argument, NDF. The typology of salvation from sin, the bite of the serpent, was not that God brought the serpent on the pole to the dying Israelites in Numbers 21, but that they look upon it and live. It is hard for me to understand why you fellows would put your soul in peril by attempting to make God's word say something it does not say. Nothing could be that important. Is there no fear of God? The camp of the Israelites was about 3 Million at the time so the pole was not in direct view of all the Israelites.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

I did not make the rules, God did. Look and live im Numbers. Believe and live in John.

Oh, and on the KJV. I do not believe it to be inspired. I believe it to be a perfect translation in English. And I do not know why you wouldn't believe that. You believe in particular election of everything except words! Go figure!

 

[nobdysfool]

That is a silly argument, NDF. The typology of salvation from sin, the bite of the serpent, was not that God brought the serpent on the pole to the dying Israelites in Numbers 21, but that they look upon it and live. It is hard for me to understand why you fellows would put your soul in peril by attempting to make God's word say something it does not say. Nothing could be that important. Is there no fear of God? The camp of the Israelites was about 3 Million at the time so the pole was not in direct view of all the Israelites.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

I did not make the rules, God did. Look and live im Numbers. Believe and live in John.

Talk about silly arguments! The serpent did not bite Eve. And you did not directly address what I said, you went off on a tangent about the serpent on the pole with the Israelites. You can't even handle a fifth-grade level rebuttal.

 

[JDS]

The entire gift, and its constituent parts are all a gift of God. A gift which you contribute something to is not really a gift.

This is probably the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a long while. No. wait. there is a guy on the dispensational side arguing against the trinity. He might have you beat a little. A gift that one is offered but has not received is not a possession. I cannot believe I am actually having to explain something as simple as receiving a gift to a man who has no doubt received many gifts in his life and has probably given gifts to others. When a gift is offered to a person, and received, it then becomes his possession. Simply accepting the gift has never been considered as earning it in our culture or any culture that I know anything about. Paul must have assumed we know what a gift is when he wrote Ephesians. Paul says we receive the gift through faith. It is not a tangible gift so one does not have to move a single body part to receive it but even if he did, it would not diminish it from it's character as a gift.
The Holy Spirit was given to the Jews in Acts 2 but they were required to be baptized in water in the name of Jesus Christ in order to receive him. The Samaritans in Acts 8 believed the gospel of Jesus Christ and were baptized in water and still did not receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. The apostles had to come from Jerusalem and lay their hands on them so they could receive him. Same with John's disciples in Acts 19:1-7.
The personification of the grace of God is the Holy Ghost! That is just a fact. He is the agency of the new birth. He is said to be God! He is said to be life! He is said to indwell the believing gentiles at the moment they believe. ( and the Jews too now) He is said to be the gift of God. His presence in our heart is said to make us a new creature in Christ Jesus.

If he is life and God gives us life, what is it that God gives us? Paul argued that the gentiles were dead in trespasses and sins. They were without God in Ep 2:12 and they did not have any previous relationship with him or Israel, They had no covenants promising them life so they had no reason to hope. They were without Christ. And God just simply out of his mercy offered these dead gentiles life and required nothing but that they receive him by faith. If and when they receive him, God accepts them together with the Jews with Christ and as the same in rank and stature, that is as sons of God. Receiving the Holy Ghost is the new birth. It is partaking of the divine nature. It is what it means to be born again from above.

Now death is the absence of life. They are exact opposites. So when God sends us out to sinners, he is not sending us out with shovels to bury them, ne is sending us with a message that they can live. They are dead! They do not have life!
But they can communicate with us. They can ask questions and answer questions, but they are dead in trespasses and sins and are separated from God. That is the meaning of death! Separation! Our message is according to God himself, "we pray ye in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God". because he said that God has reconciled all things unto himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation, to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them and has given us the word of reconciliation.

The Spirit of God is poured out on the whole world. He is everywhere. He can be received to bring us to God. His indwelling presence in our hearts is life. He is received by anyone and everyone who will receive him by faith in the substitutionary death of Jesus Christ. For he hath made him to be sin for us who knew no sin that we MIGHT be made the righteousness of God in him.

The bible says that Jesus Christ has put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. God says that he was propitiated by that sacrifice for the sins of the whole world and now anyone can come to him and be reconciled. That is the good news that we preach. When one refuses the gift of God, he is not slain. It still rains on his garden. God is good! But the hearer remains dead and dead men will go to the place of the dead, unreconciled men eventually go, the Lake of Fire.

You fellows should understand that you are actually opposing the Christ of God and his free offer of salvation with your TULIP. I think you should repent and not stand in judgment for teaching the opposite of what God says.

 

[Van]

Folks, the TULIP is broken. Ephesians 2:8 does not support the Calvinist idea of the gift of faith, the verse when understood grammatically says salvation is the gift of God.

 

[nobdysfool]

The entire gift, and its constituent parts are all a gift of God. A gift which you contribute something to is not really a gift.

This is probably the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a long while. No. wait. there is a guy on the dispensational side arguing against the trinity. He might have you beat a little.

Do you feel better now that you've belittled me?

A gift that one is offered but has not received is not a possession. I cannot believe I am actually having to explain something as simple as receiving a gift to a man who has no doubt received many gifts in his life and has probably given gifts to others. When a gift is offered to a person, and received, it then becomes his possession. Simply accepting the gift has never been considered as earning it in our culture or any culture that I know anything about. Paul must have assumed we know what a gift is when he wrote Ephesians. Paul says we receive the gift through faith. It is not a tangible gift so one does not have to move a single body part to receive it but even if he did, it would not diminish it from it's character as a gift.

We're not talking about the reception of the gift (well, I guess you are, but that's not what I was talking about), I'm talking about the composition of the gift, what it consists of. Salvation is by Grace through faith. That is the whole of the gift.

Grace is unmerited favor. Faith is the instrumental means by which Salvation is received, but God supplies both the Grace, and the means to receive it, as part of the gift. I don't have to "do" anything to merit the gift, nor do I have to "do" anything in and of myself to receive it. The faith to receive comes with the enlightening of the Holy Spirit (Faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes by the Word of God). The new birth is the quickening of the spirit to be receptive to spiritual things, of which the Gospel is one (the Wisdom of God, and the Power of God, 1 Cor. 1:24). Once quickened and enlightened, the faith with which I believe comes from the hearing and understanding of the Word, the Gospel, the words of life. That faith did not exist in me before I was born again, and my ears opened to hear.

The Holy Spirit was given to the Jews in Acts 2 but they were required to be baptized in water in the name of Jesus Christ in order to receive him.

That wasn't a "requirement". it was a promise. Baptism does not save, it is the answer of a good conscience toward God for that which He has already done.

The Samaritans in Acts 8 believed the gospel of Jesus Christ and were baptized in water and still did not receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. The apostles had to come from Jerusalem and lay their hands on them so they could receive him.

No, it should be obvious that if they only had been baptized in the name of Jesus, they had not heard the whole Gospel. The Apostles came to teach the Gospel more fully to them, and the Holy Spirit came on them, as he did in Acts 2, as a sign to the Apostles that God's Salvation through Christ was for more than just Jews. Samaritans were not full Jews, more like half-breeds. The Jews despised them. Whoever initially preached the Gospel to them probably didn't think they could receive the Holy Spirit, and so didn't tell them they could. The Apostles corrected that, not because the Apostles were the only ones who could actually impart the Holy Spirit, but because they knew that the Samaritans needed to receive the Holy Spirit, not to besaved, but because they were saved.

Same with John's disciples in Acts 19:1-7.
The personification of the grace of God is the Holy Ghost! That is just a fact. He is the agency of the new birth. He is said to be God! He is said to be life! He is said to indwell the believing gentiles at the moment they believe. ( and the Jews too now) He is said to be the gift of God. His presence in our heart is said to make us a new creature in Christ Jesus.

All true.

If he is life and God gives us life, what is it that God gives us? Paul argued that the gentiles were dead in trespasses and sins.

So were unbelieving Jews.

They were without God in Ep 2:12 and they did not have any previous relationship with him or Israel, They had no covenants promising them life so they had no reason to hope.

Just being a Jew didn't automatically save anyone.

They were without Christ. And God just simply out of his mercy offered these dead gentiles life and required nothing but that they receive him by faith. If and when they receive him, God accepts them together with the Jews with Christ and as the same in rank and stature, that is as sons of God. Receiving the Holy Ghost is the new birth. It is partaking of the divine nature. It is what it means to be born again from above.

You're confused. Receiving the Holy Ghost is not the New Birth. The Holy Spirit indwells AFTER belief. The New Birth is Regeneration. That is the quickening spoken of in Ephesians 2:5. In order for one to believe and receive Christ, one must first be quickened, by the Holy Spirit. That is not indwelling. Spiritually alive people can believe and receive, Spiritually dead people don't do anything spiritual

Now death is the absence of life. They are exact opposites. So when God sends us out to sinners, he is not sending us out with shovels to bury them, ne is sending us with a message that they can live. They are dead! They do not have life!

They do not have spiritual life. They obviously have physical life, else we could not interact with them. Don't confuse the two.

But they can communicate with us. They can ask questions and answer questions, but they are dead in trespasses and sins and are separated from God. That is the meaning of death! Separation! Our message is according to God himself, "we pray ye in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God". because he said that God has reconciled all things unto himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation, to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them and has given us the word of reconciliation.

But, it is not us who quickens the word to them, it is the Holy Spirit , as He wills. Apart from that, they will not respond, nor can they. Don't ever make the mistake of thinking that you can persuade, cajole, convince, or trick anyone into believing on Christ. All we are called to do is preach the message.

The Spirit of God is poured out on the whole world. He is everywhere. He can be received to bring us to God. His indwelling presence in our hearts is life. He is received by anyone and everyone who will receive him by faith in the substitutionary death of Jesus Christ. For he hath made him to be sin for us who knew no sin that we MIGHT be made the righteousness of God in him.

You're getting a little carried away, and departing from the truth. No spiritually dead man can receive the Holy Spirit while he is yet dead. The Holy Spirit cannot and does not indwell an unclean vessel.

The bible says that Jesus Christ has put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. God says that he was propitiated by that sacrifice for the sins of the whole world and now anyone can come to him and be reconciled. That is the good news that we preach. When one refuses the gift of God, he is not slain. It still rains on his garden. God is good! But the hearer remains dead and dead men will go to the place of the dead, unreconciled men, the Lake of Fire.

The basic underlying assumption you hold is that men can, of their own power, and by their own choice come to God and be saved, apart from any influence by the Holy Spirit, apart from any quickening (regeneration), apart from Grace. That is the Pelagian heresy. Even Arminians believe that no man can be saved apart from the prior working of God's Grace on that man's heart. You obviously don't.

You fellows should understand that you are actually opposing the Christ of God and his free offer of salvation with your TULIP. I think you should repent and not stand in judgment for teaching the opposite of what God says.

You need to quit passing judgment on that which you clearly do not have correct knowledge of, and stop this insane Calvinist bashing. The unspoken message in your slander is that you really don't believe Calvinists are saved. You don't know what you're talking about, and you are certainly not qualified to make that judgment.

Have a good day.

Funny, you made a half-hearted attempt to answer my fifth-grade level rebuttal, and still missed the mark.

 

[heymikey80]

I have said it before but let me say it again. It does not matter what any of these scholars say.

I'm disgusted by this form of argument.

Middle Greek native readers defended what it says this way:

CANON 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism -- if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers. Council of Orange, Canon 5, 529 AD

even faith itself cannot be had without God’s mercy, and that it is the gift of God. This he very expressly teaches us when he says, “For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.” They might possibly say, “We received grace because we believed;” as if they would attribute the faith to themselves, and the grace to God. Therefore, the apostle having said, “Ye are saved through faith,” added,” And that not of yourselves, but it is the gift of God.” Augustine, "Treatise on Grace & Free Will", 17.

“Through faith;”
Then, that, on the other hand, our free-will be not impaired, he adds also our part in the work, and yet again cancels it, and adds,
“And that not of ourselves.”
Neither is faith, he means, “of ourselves.” Because had He not come, had He not called us, how had we been able to believe? for “how,” saith he, “shall they believe, unless they hear?” (Rom. x. 14.) So that the work of faith itself is not our own.
“It is the gift,” said he, “of God,” it is “not of works.”
John Chrysostom, "Homilies on Ephesians"


​

You think about this carefully. What you're saying is that the people who read this as their native language didn't know what it was saying.

And they were all 5th graders in their native language sometime.

You wanna quit listening to scholars? Quit listening to the scholars who translated this into KJ English. Quit listening to them. Listen to believers who read this text as 5th graders, and all agreed on this.

 

[drstevej]

Folks, the TULIP is broken. Ephesians 2:8 does not support the Calvinist idea of the gift of faith, the verse when understood grammatically says salvation is the gift of God.

The Earth is Flat

The Earth is Flat

The Earth is Flat

The Earth is Flat

The Earth is Flat

The Earth is Flat

*continue until folks believe it*

 

[nobdysfool]

There is a real lack of intelligent debate on this subject. Just Calvinist-bashing, KJV-onlyism, and repetitious self-justification arguments, that basically say, 'Calvinists slander their opponents', which is itself slander, so the pot calls the kettle black, and thinks he is being clever. Add to that the blatant misrepresentation of Calvinism by self-appointed, self-important people who display their utter ignorance of Calvinist doctrine with every slanderous pronouncement and assertion, and it's no wonder that there is no substantive debate, but instead partisanship.

 

[JDS]

I'm disgusted by this form of argument.

Middle Greek native readers defended what it says this way:

CANON 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism -- if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers. Council of Orange, Canon 5, 529 AD

even faith itself cannot be had without God’s mercy, and that it is the gift of God. This he very expressly teaches us when he says, “For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God.” They might possibly say, “We received grace because we believed;” as if they would attribute the faith to themselves, and the grace to God. Therefore, the apostle having said, “Ye are saved through faith,” added,” And that not of yourselves, but it is the gift of God.” Augustine, "Treatise on Grace & Free Will", 17.

“Through faith;”
Then, that, on the other hand, our free-will be not impaired, he adds also our part in the work, and yet again cancels it, and adds,
“And that not of ourselves.”
Neither is faith, he means, “of ourselves.” Because had He not come, had He not called us, how had we been able to believe? for “how,” saith he, “shall they believe, unless they hear?” (Rom. x. 14.) So that the work of faith itself is not our own.
“It is the gift,” said he, “of God,” it is “not of works.”
John Chrysostom, "Homilies on Ephesians"


​

You think about this carefully. What you're saying is that the people who read this as their native language didn't know what it was saying.

And they were all 5th graders in their native language sometime.

You wanna quit listening to scholars? Quit listening to the scholars who translated this into KJ English. Quit listening to them. Listen to believers who read this text as 5th graders, and all agreed on this.

You men have not attempted yet to deal with this verse within the context of the epistle and it's theme. Nor have you considered the theme of NT Christianity. You all have dealt with it in the context of your presuppositions and how, pray tell, can God teach you anything if you already know what you are going to believe about a passage before you even study it to see what it says?

I am sick and tired of men like the ones you quoted above making statements and then reference a verse without showing how it makes the point in it's context. This is status quo for you gents. I do not need canon 5 to tell me what Ep 2 says and I count this fellow as a false teacher for disagreeing with the text. You think he is teaching truth because he agrees with your reformed view of God and man or otherwise you would not quote him. If an angel from heaven said that faith is the gift of God in the context of salvation it would be wrong. Why? Because I have the written record of God that tells me over and over what the gift of God is, and it is not faith!

Ep 2:8 has a context in this epistle. It is being stretched all over the place by all you men who I believe are unable or unwilling to understand spiritual truth.

I am going to answer NBF post later when I have more time and make the biblical position more clear.

 

[JDS]

There is a real lack of intelligent debate on this subject. Just Calvinist-bashing, KJV-onlyism, and repetitious self-justification arguments, that basically say, 'Calvinists slander their opponents', which is itself slander, so the pot calls the kettle black, and thinks he is being clever. Add to that the blatant misrepresentation of Calvinism by self-appointed, self-important people who display their utter ignorance of Calvinist doctrine with every slanderous pronouncement and assertion, and it's no wonder that there is no substantive debate, but instead partisanship.

This in itself is a slander from you. I have insisited that the primary application of Ep 2:8 is in the context of the epistle of Ephesians, and not one of you have presented an argument within that context yet. But I have and will continue to do so. This grace that Paul is speaking of is applicable to the gentiles particlarly, and not the Jews (5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye (gentiles) are saved). There is a reason for that which is addressed in the chapter and the epistle and the historical accout of their inclusion in Acts and other epistles. To ignore that will obviously have you misreprenting God, which you are doing!

 

[AndOne]

I don't get it -

Ephesians 2:8 seems pretty straight forward and simple to me - on its own and within the context of the entire chapter. I don't see anywhere in all of chapter 2 that would indicate that God's gift of grace comes from anywhere but Him alone.

I don't need any Canon or confirmation from any other Biblical "scholar" to see that.

 

[JDS]

I don't get it -

Ephesians 2:8 seems pretty straight forward and simple to me - on its own and within the context of the entire chapter. I don't see anywhere in all of chapter 2 that would indicate that God's gift of grace comes from anywhere but Him alone.

I don't need any Canon or confirmation from any other Biblical "scholar" to see that.

Their whole point is that faith must be the gift of God in addition to salvation even though the text does not make this point. They are guilty of interpretation within the context of their systematic theology.

Don't you understand that they are forced to do this because if they did not, the T in tulip would fall to the ground and and would push the rest of the letters over with it as it fell? They are being dishonest with grammar for the sake of their theology.

 

[nobdysfool]

Their whole point is that faith must be the gift of God in addition to salvation even though the text does not make this point. They are guilty of interpretation within the context of their systematic theology.

You have completely missed the points that I and several other have made. Faith is part of the gift, the other part being Grace. The gift as a whole is Salvation. None of us are saying that Faith is another gift, and if you think that's what we said, then you need to learn to read with comprehension.

Don't you understand that they are forced to do this because if they did not, the T in tulip would fall to the ground and and would push the rest of the letters over with it as it fell? They are being dishonest with grammar for the sake of their theology.

Don't you realize that the same charge can apply to you? In fact, it is much more likely that you are the one guilty of such theological blindness than we.

You have not dealt directly with what any of us have said, but have, in every case run off on a tangent. Start dealing with, and answering what we have said, rather than how you want to interpret and spin it.

 

[nobdysfool]

This in itself is a slander from you. I have insisited that the primary application of Ep 2:8 is in the context of the epistle of Ephesians, and not one of you have presented an argument within that context yet. But I have and will continue to do so. This grace that Paul is speaking of is applicable to the gentiles particlarly, and not the Jews (5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye (gentiles) are saved). There is a reason for that which is addressed in the chapter and the epistle and the historical accout of their inclusion in Acts and other epistles. To ignore that will obviously have you misreprenting God, which you are doing!

That's an artificial parsing of the text that you have established no grounds for. You just expect us to accept it because you say so. There is no warrant for such an interpretation. Grace applies to the Gentiles, but not the Jews?? Where do you come up with such stuff?

 

[AndOne]

Their whole point is that faith must be the gift of God in addition to salvation even though the text does not make this point. They are guilty of interpretation within the context of their systematic theology.

Perhaps I should rephrase - I don't see anywhere in all of chapter 2 that would indicate that faith comes from anywhere except God alone.