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The Tulip is broken

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JDS

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So we are not to weep for those whom are not saved?

Fatalism, honey! They cannot be saved if they are not chosen and they cannot be lost if they are! Think about it and save your tears. It is vanity to weep!

Folks,

It is a serious thing for men and women to be condemned to hell! It is far more serious for God to have created them with the sole, hateful intent of sending them there! Talk about hopeless!
 
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drstevej

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Fatalism, honey! They cannot be saved!

Folks,

It is a serious thing for men and women to be condemned to hell! It is far more serious for God to have created them with the sole, hateful intent of sending them there! Talk about hopeless!

Read Whitefield. As a Calvinist Evangelist he wept over more souls than I have even met. Read him and then tell me you care more than he did.

Also study infra and suprlapsarian views. You are historically and theologically naive and do not even realize it.

*sigh*

Is Heaven fatalism? Or can those there leave?
 
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Fatalism, honey! They cannot be saved if they are not chosen and they cannot be lost if they are! Think about it and save your tears. It is vanity to weep!

Folks,

It is a serious thing for men and women to be condemned to hell! It is far more serious for God to have created them with the sole, hateful intent of sending them there! Talk about hopeless!
Awe the love of those whom stand on mens theology instead of Gods words.. For even Jesus wept.
 
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JDS

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Read Whitefield. As a Calvinist Evangelist he wept over more souls than I have even met. Read him and then tell me you care more than he did.
If Whitefield ever led a soul to Christ, it was because he preached that Jesus Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures and that he was buried and he rose again the third day according to the Scriptures and that whosoever will may come and take of salvation freely by faith in him.

If he preached that, he is to be emulated and exalted as doing a great work. If he preached what he believed, that is that God has no intention of saving the vast majority of the world, but that he hates them and has created them for the day of destruction, then he is great in your eyes and not God's. Lu 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. At the very least, a man who preaches this will lose his rewards!

Rep Daddy said:
Also study infra and suprlapsarian views. You are historically and theologically naive and do not even realize it.
Praise God!
How about studying the great Apostle Paul who said: 2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
 
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drstevej

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If you refuse to study history at least stop rewriting it.

I have studied Paul and your insinuation that I am deceived by the Serpent is uncalled for and rude.
 
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nobdysfool

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Fatalism, honey! They cannot be saved if they are not chosen and they cannot be lost if they are! Think about it and save your tears. It is vanity to weep!

Then Jesus wept in vain. And your condescension is astounding. You cannot even respectfully address a female Calvinist. "honey"??? I seriously doubt that you and her are on even remotely intimate enough terms to address her that way.

JDS said:
Folks,

It is a serious thing for men and women to be condemned to hell! It is far more serious for God to have created them with the sole, hateful intent of sending them there! Talk about hopeless!

Takes one to know one. Talk about hopeless! "Woe unto you, who call evil good, and good evil"! You've got a serious cognitive problem.

And, I see that you have been corrected about your attitude toward what I said. You have clearly shown for all to see, those "folks" that you fantasize are hanging on your every word, that you don't know what Calvinism teaches, and I would venture a guess that you have been getting your talking points from anti-Calvinist websites and books. That is similar to asking a Ford dealer about the features and benefits of owning a Chevy, or Chrysler. You're not going to get unbiased information. Your sources are clearly deficient.
 
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JDS

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I believe all he wants is for you to confine your remarks to that which you know. That would be refreshing.


That is what I have been doing and he is still not happy. He wants me to go study Whitefield and infra and suprlapsarian views. Does this sound like the simplicity of the gospel to you?
 
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nobdysfool

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That is what I have been doing and he is still not happy. He wants me to go study Whitefield and infra and suprlapsarian views. Does this sound like the simplicity of the gospel to you?

No, it sounds like an education your are in dire need of. It will save you from making a fool of yourself, making false statements about Calvinism.

You really don't know with whom you're dealing.
 
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drstevej

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That is what I have been doing and he is still not happy. He wants me to go study Whitefield and infra and suprlapsarian views. Does this sound like the simplicity of the gospel to you?

I suggested you read these so you would not make errant statements. You ought to at least understand what you criticize.
 
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nobdysfool

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no need to be so agressive

Paul was aggressive in confronting error. What RD said was not aggressive. It was merely direct. There is a difference.
 
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drstevej

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I once co-officiated a wedding with Roger Nicole (his niece was the bride). When we were talking I noted, "I guess some are predestined to be Arminians." He fired back with a twinkle in his eye, "Oh no, God is not the author of sin!"

Neat guy.
 
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AndOne

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I agree that no one knows who is elect in this scheme and that would include the Calvinist who says he is. There is not a passage in scripture that one can go to and find God personalizing election for a single one of you. Everything is subjective and election is always in a corprate context, except in the case of Jesus Christ. Ask a Calvinist how he knows he is elect and he will not quote God saying he is but will begin to present evidence of good works to validate his election. This will not cut it in the judgment.
Why would a man show up at the judgment claiming he is elect and he did not even have faith, the only principle that God requires of man, and expect to be accepted of God? Especially since God has said words like these, "Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?" And "Pr 20:6 Most men will proclaim every one his own goodness: but a faithful man who can find?"

You say that doctrine of election promotes grace and I say it does not. It promotes limited atonement! Grace is the "giving" of God, it is not the withholding of God. How can the word "limited" even be used in the context of a sovereign God?

Grace is the operative principle of God's divine dealing with mankind in the present age we are living in at this time. It is grace because from Pentecost in Acts 2, God has poured out his Spirit on mankind and offered him as a "gift" to all who would receive him in the name of Jesus Christ. This is divine giving! It is especially "grace" for the gentiles seeing as how God had said this about them in time past! Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
The Spirit was promised to Jews in a covenant promise, but not to gentiles. Eze 11:19 And I will give them (Israel) one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Therefore, the giving of the Spirit to the gentiles beginning in Acts 10 to the present day is an act of pure grace by God seeing as he had made no promise to us that he was obliged to keep. The historical book of Acts reflects this truth as well. In the first 10 chapters the word "grace" is mentioned once when Peter was the preacher and the Jews were the focus of his evangelistic efforts but in the rest of the book, "grace" is mentioned 9 (the number for fruitbearing) times when the focus was on the gentiles and Paul was the preacher of record.

Notice how this is expressed in Ephesians, the epistle that explains the church!

Eph 2:1 And you (gentiles) [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye (gentiles) walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together (Jews who were saved first and gentiles) with Christ, (by grace ye (gentiles) are saved)
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye (gentiles) saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

One needs to ask why Paul would have spoken as if to say that it is the gentiles that are saved by grace through faith like in this statement: 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved). He uses the pronoun "us together" and then singles out the gentiles as being saved by grace. Was paul saved by grace? Yes, but the epistle is explaining the inclusion of the gentiles and on what godly principle they were included. This is the revelation of the "mystery" that both groups were put together in one body and accepted by God IN THAT BODY.

Grace, Holy Ghost, salvation, THE gift of God, and eternal life are all synonyms and mean the same thing in the NT.

I could continue and offer even stronger proof but you are not predisposed to allow anything to challenge your presuppositions. I can ask if you would consider that Calvinism is a systematic error and is not a right division of scripture.

I really don't have the time to get into all of this with you, friend. Besides the NLCS is about to start and soon all my attention will be diverted there.

I only wanted to answer your concern with regards to evangelism and Calvinists. I believe I did so adequately. What you believe in regards to grace and election is really of no concern to me. I am so sick of fighting this battle that I'm not getting into another long and drawn out discussion over this.

I can assure I at one time strongly consisdered that Calvinism was not a right division of scripture. The problem was once I was exposed to it - Calvinism pretty much lept off the pages to me every time I opened a Bible. I just couldn't get around it. I know you will say you don't see it - all I can say is I can't see how you can't. That's it.
 
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JDS

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I suggested you read these so you would not make errant statements. You ought to at least understand what you criticize.

Rep Daddy, I am sure you have made these studies but I don't see hpw they have benefitted anyone but yourself. You certainly don't seem concerned with teaching anyone truth as you see it. Matter of fact, from what I have seen of you so far, you are the king of the one liners here! It calls attention to your wit and builds your reputation in the eyes of others but it helps no one.

Is that the end game?

I am here because I want to help. It is work though!


Behe's Boy quote!
I am so sick of fighting this battle that I'm not getting into another long and drawn out discussion over this. End quote

Fair enough. Calvinism is making great inroads in christendom and is the reason I oppose it with such ferver. It is a false doctrine, I believe, and it is aptly described as the end time doctrines that corrupt the church.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

If the rhetoric of the Calvinists matched the doctrines they espoused, I would take it more seriously, but it does not and this is what I have proven in the last few posts. We are given the Ordo Salutis where it is shown that dead men must be given life so faith can be given to them so they can be given salvation, which is life. None of the Calvinists post comments like they even know this. They make statements like "all are welcome at the cross" or that "the atonment of Christ was sufficient for all men but efficient for just the elect. Or what about the sovereign God that is so sovereign that he cannot even change his own mind, and he is God, for crying out loud. Then we are told about people weeping for souls to be saved when no elect person is ever in any danger of not finally being saved and the unelect is created for the express purpose of being hated by God so he can send them to hell and in my way of thinking it might even be a sin to weep for them.

But, I understand you are busy so, fare well.
 
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drstevej

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Rep Daddy, I am sure you have made these studies but I don't see hpw they have benefitted anyone but yourself. You certainly don't seem concerned with teaching anyone truth as you see it. Matter of fact, from what I have seen of you so far, you are the king of the one liners here! It calls attention to your wit and builds your reputation in the eyes of others but it helps no one.

Is that the end game?

I am here because I want to help. It is work though!

Well I have been a pastor for over 30 years and taught in several seminaries... so I will let that record speak for itself. I have posted here for years and have had many thank me for what they have learned from my posts (humorous or otherwise).

So stow your judgmentalism based upon scant information and YOU might learn something as well. You clearly have misrepresented Calvinists and Calvinism proving you do not understand it.

I have pointed you to sources that might improve your understanding and your response has been sanctimony.

So instead of trying to "help" me, spend some time researching what you post.
 
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JDS

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You clearly have misrepresented Calvinists and Calvinism proving you do not understand it.

This accusation is of course untrue. I have proven that Calvinism cannot be defended by their best apologists if their doctrines are applied as they present them to us.

Take their doctrine of sovereignty. We could get no farther than this since the doctrine as stated by them equals fatalism. God has already decreed that all things happen just as he has ordered them from before the foundation of the world. Therefore, the elect should never bemoan the fact that there are such rascals as Arminians or other lost people, but should be glad because it is the will of God, ....unless, of course, God has predestinated their sorrow!
 
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