The Tulip is broken

[JDS]

Strange definition of repent. Proxy repentance? Bet the LDS would even find that unusual.

Are you seeing a need to redefine "repent"?

 

[drstevej]

Are you seeing a need to redefine "repent"?

No need, you just did> lol

 

[JDS]

Do you mean an insult by the lower case here? Just curious.

And your understanding of Calvinism here is as bizarre as any I have heard in 30 years.

No, I do not mean an insult. Repentance of God is defined by the context. IT GREIVED HIM AT HIS HEART. Repentance is an attitude of the heart every time it is used in scripture! in this case, it is God's heart. He has one, you know!

 

[JDS]

The greater point here is that God responded to the attitudes and actions of man.

Does that make him less than sovereign?

 

[nobdysfool]

The greater point here is that God responded to the attitudes and actions of man.

Does that make him less than sovereign?

No, and it does not indicate that God subsumes His sovereignty to the attitudes and actions of men. That is where you err. God responds to the attitudes and actions of men, but He does so as Sovereign, not in order to be Sovereign. He does not need to prove His Sovereignty. By the very fact that He is God, He IS Sovereign. He does as He pleases, and no man has the right to say, "what are You doing?" He chooses to save whom He Wills, and to leave others in their sins, to show forth His Grace to those He saves, and His Wrath against sin, and sinners. That is the action of a True Sovereign.

 

[MamaZ]

Why is this such a foreign concept that God gives his moral law and expects his creation to abide by it seeing he is their provider and sustainer?

Ge 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

WHY?

Ge 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.

Could not God have predestinated at least a few of those people to be righteous? What did God expect if he created them for the day of destruction? Why would he need to repent if his sovereign intention was to destroy these predestinated to destruction with a flood these adulterers, murders, and cutthroats?

I wonder if God really did repent and if he was truly grieved at his heart for the manner his creation treated his righteous law?

I wonder if he would not have repented if man would have obeyed him and done right deeds? I wonder if he would have still destroyed them if they had of done right? Did they have a choice? Enquiring minds want to know!

Can and does God respond to men?

The calvinists have God in a very small box and he is not allowed to be any bigger than they say he can be. The calvinists are SOVERIEGN over god!

Actually those whom think it is their free will that saves them think they have soveriegnty over God.. Believing that it is by mans choice and not Gods that saves.. Making Gods will only applyable to mans.. We say God is soveriegn! saying mens will has no power over Gods will..

 

[pawnraider]

10 posts in 11 months.

Argyle or crew?

BTW, what is "Calvanism" ???

Aren't we argumentative today!

 

[JDS]

Actually those whom think it is their free will that saves them think they have soveriegnty over God.. Believing that it is by mans choice and not Gods that saves.. Making Gods will only applyable to mans.. We say God is soveriegn! saying mens will has no power over Gods will..

No, and it does not indicate that God subsumes His sovereignty to the attitudes and actions of men. That is where you err. God responds to the attitudes and actions of men, but He does so as Sovereign, not in order to be Sovereign. He does not need to prove His Sovereignty. By the very fact that He is God, He IS Sovereign. He does as He pleases, and no man has the right to say, "what are You doing?" He chooses to save whom He Wills, and to leave others in their sins, to show forth His Grace to those He saves, and His Wrath against sin, and sinners. That is the action of a True Sovereign.

You both are trapped by the language of scripture and your arguments make no sense. Go back and read what is actually said in the passage and then come back and try again please!

 

[AndOne]

You both are trapped by the language of scripture and your arguments make no sense. Go back and read what is actually said in the passage and then come back and try again please!

What doesn't make sense?

 

[nobdysfool]

You both are trapped by the language of scripture and your arguments make no sense. Go back and read what is actually said in the passage and then come back and try again please!

What exactly doesn't make sense to you? "Trapped by the language of scripture"? I think you are the one trapped.

 

[JDS]

What doesn't make sense?

It makes no sense for you to argue THAT God's sovereignty will not allow for him to respond to man's disobedience with a grieved heart, as if man's disobedience greived his heart, which it did. What did he do? Program his own heart to be greived before the foundation of the world?

Let me re-quote the text again because it is obvious you fellows are resPonding to me without reading it.

5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

The context says repent means that he was grieved at his heart. Why did it grieve God if he had sovereignly created them to rebel against him? And why did he decide to destroy them if that was not the original plan?

The answer to the question is that man had purposely and deliberately and with consciousness and fore-thought rebelled against the will of God and HE RESPONDED TO THAT REBELLION IN JUDGMENT.

GOD RESPONDED TO MAN BECAUSE MAN EXERTED HIS WILL ABOVE THE WILL OF GOD WHETHER IT AGREES WITH YOUR THEOLOGY OR NOT? The text says so!

Here is an added thought to consider in this application:

Re 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

If these people would have obeyed God and done righteousness, he would have had pleasure in them and would not have destroyed them.

Ge 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?

Ac 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

 

[cygnusx1]

GOD RESPONDED TO MAN BECAUSE MAN EXERTED HIS WILL ABOVE THE WILL OF GOD WHETHER IT AGREES WITH YOUR THEOLOGY OR NOT? The text says so!

there is no text in scripture that EVER says "man exerted his will ABOVE THE WILL OF GOD "


such a concept is false and blaspheme.

God 'responded' to man after the flood with MERCY (Noah) and Judgment .

you are aware that God does not REPENT , God does not change His mind ?

the 'repentance' in Gen 6 is one of heart sorrow , and you think God didn't already know what man was going to do before he did it ?

The Flood was in God's decree before this earth was even formed.

Acts 15

[18] Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

 

[JDS]

there is no text in scripture that EVER says "man exerted his will ABOVE THE WILL OF GOD "


such a concept is false and blaspheme.

God 'responded' to man after the flood with MERCY (Noah) and Judgment .

you are aware that God does not REPENT , God does not change His mind ?

the 'repentance' in Gen 6 is one of heart sorrow , and you think God didn't already know what man was going to do before he did it ?

The Flood was in God's decree before this earth was even formed.

Acts 15

[18] Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

When will you guys ever find a need to not change the words of God? Do you have no fear?

Why would God grieve, be sorry, as you say, for man doing exactly what God desired that he do?

Let me put this text up here for you again and this time I hope you will read it.

5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

What greived God at his heart?

You answered correctly if you said it was that God saw the wickedness of man upon the earth abd that every imagination of his heart was only evil continually.

This was not the will of God for man or it would not have grieved him at his heart. He would have been pleased because man did what God intended them to do.

Here is why God created man according to his own words. I am not guessing about this!

Re 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

These men did not please God or he would not have destroyed them. This is logic 101. They greived God at his heart by their unrighteous deeds and the evil imaginations.

THIS IS WHAT THE TEXT SAYS! He was sorry he created them!

When you state that God does not change his mind, are you aware that you have entered the dark realms of fatalism? Have you thought about the implications of this statement?

 

[nobdysfool]

"God is not a man that he should lie, or the son of man that He should repent. Has he said, and will He not do it? Or has He decreed, and shall it not come to pass?"

God is in control. Man is not. That does not mean that man's sin did not grieve God's heart, but you take that way too far.

 

[JDS]

"God is not a man that he should lie, or the son of man that He should repent. Has he said, and will He not do it? Or has He decreed, and shall it not come to pass?"

God is in control. Man is not. That does not mean that man's sin did not grieve God's heart, but you take that way too far.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked;

Re 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

The death of the wicked does not please God. I am not guessing about this. So far, several of youse has had comments on this but none of you have dealt with the text. You have each one brought calvinists doctrines to bear upon the text and the text will not support them. That, however, has not deterred a single one of you. You force the text to conform to your preferred doctrine. This is dangerous!

 

[nobdysfool]

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked;

Re 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

The death of the wicked does not please God. I am not guessing about this. So far, several of youse has had comments on this but none of you have dealt with the text. You have each one brought calvinists doctrines to bear upon the text and the text will not support them. That, however, has not deterred a single one of you. You force the text to conform to your preferred doctrine. This is dangerous!

Oh, and you don't? C'mon, you know better than that! Why sling accusations you cannot prove? You're playing the same game as another poster here, trying to refute scripture with scripture.

No Calvinist has said that God delights in destroying the wicked. Your accusations are without merit and false.

 

[MamaZ]

GOD RESPONDED TO MAN BECAUSE MAN EXERTED HIS WILL ABOVE THE WILL OF GOD WHETHER IT AGREES WITH YOUR THEOLOGY OR NOT? The text says so!

Wow.. so now man is more powerful than God according to you.. God has to now submit to His created? Whew where in all scripture do we ever read this..

 

[MamaZ]

Who ever said that God delights in destroying the wicked? All are welcome at the cross.. But GOD knowing all men is the one to whom HE gives HIS gifts to.. He is the gift Giver..

 

[JDS]

Who ever said that God delights in destroying the wicked? All are welcome at the cross.. But GOD knowing all men is the one to whom HE gives HIS gifts to.. He is the gift Giver..

Please do not insult the intelligence of those of us who read your doctrines every day. To say that you believe all are welcome at the cross is misinformation and contrary to your systematic scheme that says God predestinated most of humanity to hell. He created them for the day of destruction. They cannot believe in him unless he regenerates them first, something he will not do because he hates them (Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated, you quote often). Unelect cannot be saved by the cross or any other way. The suggestion that they are welcome at the cross in calvinist theology is absurd and insulting.

I ask a calvinist one time if he believed that a person who was not chosen by the Lord to be saved before the foundation of the world could ever be saved under any circumstances or if there were any scenario where one who had been chosen could finally be lost and go to hell and he answered "NO" to both questions.

If you agree with this man, would you please inform us why an invitation to an unelect man to come to the cross of Jesus Christ would make a hill-o-beans of difference to him, except it might make him more of a sinner. Enquiring minds want to know!

You people cannot stand by your own doctrines and I suppose you just expect us to forget about all the things you say. I really think the Mormon doctrines are at least as close to the truth as calvinist doctrines.

If you cannot give a better response than this one, I would just soon you did not answer.

 

[nobdysfool]

Please do not insult the intelligence of those of us who read your doctrines every day. To say that you believe all are welcome at the cross is misinformation and contrary to your systematic scheme that says God predestinated most of humanity to hell. He created them for the day of destruction. They cannot believe in him unless he regenerates them first, something he will not do because he hates them (Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated, you quote often). Unelect cannot be saved by the cross or any other way. The suggestion that they are welcome at the cross in calvinist theology is absurd and insulting.

I ask a calvinist one time if he believed that a person who was not chosen by the Lord to be saved before the foundation of the world could ever be saved under any circumstances or if there were any scenario where one who had been chosen could finally be lost and go to hell and he answered "NO" to both questions.

If you agree with this man, would you please inform us why an invitation to an unelect man to come to the cross of Jesus Christ would make a hill-o-beans of difference to him, except it might make him more of a sinner. Enquiring minds want to know!

You people cannot stand by your own doctrines and I suppose you just expect us to forget about all the things you say. I really think the Mormon doctrines are at least as close to the truth as calvinist doctrines.

If you cannot give a better response than this one, I would just soon you did not answer.

Your agenda is clear, and your hatred shows. For you to lecture Calvinists about their beliefs is presumptuous, and you know it. If you are not willing to civilly discuss and examine these issues, without the rancor and hatred you can't seem to control in yourself, we'd rather you didn't answer, either.