The Tulip is broken

[Eric_C]

The Parable of the Sower demonstrates that Total Spiritual Inability is false doctrine.

Do you think that some person seeking after God for carnal purpose, is a person demonstrating "spiritual ability"?

 

[Folks LOL]

Folks

Take note LOL

 

[Blood]

Does 1 Timothy 2:4 indicate that God desires all men to be saved or only some previously selected Jews and Gentiles?

In the context, it means all kinds of men.

In fact the passage starts off with "for kings and all that are in authority", and even tells us that the main reason to pray for them is not that they will be saved, but that the existing saved might "lead a quiet and peacable life"





Christ died as a ransom for all, and all refers to all men. 1 Timothy 2:6.
The fact that he died as a ransom for all, requires evidence. It is not good enough for Paul to just declare that Christ died for all, in the face of the fact that God’s people had to that point been one race only, even Israel.

So Paul advances evidence: he points out by implication ("testified" – the fact had been attested to) that non-Jews had become converted, which he implies was in line with the fact that he was a minister to the Gentiles.

He was referring to events such as that which had occurred at Pentecost with the foreign visitors, the salvation of the Samaritans under Philip, and to his own ministry to the Gentiles, an unusual and unexpected ministry given the Jews' theretofore exclusive possession of the oracles of God.

It is logically invalid to derive that Christ was ransomed for every single person from the mere fact that some non-Jews had been converted, for unless every person is converted, there is nothing to support the derivation. It is only valid to derive that Christ’s ransom was not restricted to Jews. Any further ‘derivation’ is a jerk of the knee, not theology.

Therefore, the "all" intends "not only Jews", and you are revealed to be unlearned, as usual, and one who does not stop to properly take things in context for fear of finding out that the truth goes against what you declare.

 

[Epiphoskei]

Hi Epip, Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, That does not suggest that everyone has received the benefits of His propitiation.

1) Propitiation is not the means of salvation, it is salvation.

2) Regardless of that, the quote in question would tend to disagree with your assertation that Calvin didn't hold to limeted atonement.

 

[msortwell]

Christ died as a ransom for all, and all refers to all men. 1 Timothy 2:6.[/SIZE]
The fact that he died as a ransom for all, requires evidence. It is not good enough for Paul to just declare that Christ died for all, in the face of the fact that God’s people had to that point been one race only, even Israel.

. . . Therefore, the "all" intends "not only Jews", and you are revealed to be unlearned, as usual, and one who does not stop to properly take things in context for fear of finding out that the truth goes against what you declare.

Just so the argument is offered once again . . .

The word translated in 1 Tim 2:6 as "all" is pas. Strong's tells us that pas can mean the following.

NT:3956, pas (pas); including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: KJV - all (manner of, means), alway (-s), any (one), daily, ever, every (one, way), as many as, no (-thing), thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

This requires English readers to be very cautious how heavily we weigh the use of the English word "all." If the word is translated from pas, it might mean "all (without exception)" or it could means "all manor of" or "all types of." And we must judge, based upon context, (immediate and broader context) which is the appropriate meaning. And simply because the English translators generally translate the term as "all" without further clarification, we should not be reluctant to apply the "all manner/type of" meaning - if the context supports it.

In this case, we know from 1 Tim 2:5 that "all" refers to men. We are then left to determine whether it refers to "all men without exception," or to "all types of men."

If you are a Calvinist or an Arminian you should apply the "all types of men" definition, believing that the broader context of Scripture makes that clear.

If you are a universalist you would apply the "all types of men without exception" definition.

Otherwise you are left with the untenable notion that Christ died as a ransom for some that still went to hell, the pay the price for their sin, for which Christ already paid. This would seem to challenge Ps 89:14, that justice is righteousness are the foundation of God's throne.

Blessings,

Mike

 

[Van]

Originally Posted by Van

The Parable of the Sower demonstrates that Total Spiritual Inability is false doctrine.
​

Do you think that some person seeking after God for carnal purpose, is a person demonstrating "spiritual ability"?

Seeking after God demonstrates some spiritual ability, therefore the Calvinist doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability is false doctrine. Why not admit what you believe is "Limited Spiritual Ability." You would still be a four point Calvinist. But of course, if a person can trust in God and receive the gospel with joy, who is to say God might not credit that faith as righteousness? So we are down to three. And who is to say a person might trust in Christ initially but turn away before he fully trusts in Christ with all his heart. That would mean we are down to two. And then if you agree with John Calvin that it is incontestable that Christ died for all mankind, we are down to being a one point Calvinist, just like me.

 

[Van]

1) Propitiation is not the means of salvation, it is salvation.

Yet another effort to redefine the meaning of words to fit Calvinist doctrine into scripture. Thayers indicates the idea in 1 John 2:2 is that Christ is the means of appeasing God. But if we use the actual meaning, that would nullify the argument that if Christ died for everyone, everyone is saved. Go figure

 

[mattlock73]

Originally Posted by Van

The Parable of the Sower demonstrates that Total Spiritual Inability is false doctrine.
​

Seeking after God demonstrates some spiritual ability, therefore the Calvinist doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability is false doctrine.

No, seeking after God for carnal purposes does not demonstrate spiritual ability. No one comes to me except that the father draws him. No one can understand the things of God unless they have been born again. There is no one righteous, no not one. Total depravity is scriptural.

 

[Van]

Give me a break, seeking after God demonstrates some spiritual ability, otherwise they would not seek after God. It is a lock. The Bible teaches limited spiritual ability and we would disagree upon the extent, with you saying not enough that God would credit our faith as righteousness, and me say if you believe from the heart with all your heart, He does.

 

[frumanchu]

Hi Fru, not to put too fine a point on it but Matthew 13:20-22 is not part of the parable, it is part of Christ's explanation of the parable. The meaning is straightforward.

Boy is that an overtly desparate attempt to save face! I never said that those verses were the actual parable and you know it. I simply commented on the parable in general, including Jesus' explanation of it.

If you want, I can comment further on Jesus' explanation of His use of parables, which clearly demonstrates that they are meant to withhold truth from men "lest they turn and repent."

Next, I am charged with taking a verse out of context. Calvinists defend their false doctrines by making one charge after another against those who present the truth. File all of his charges under "evasion of the topic."

Hypocrisy abounds. The difference between you and me is that I actually provided supporting arguments for my charge rather than just assuming that the mere fact I made it means it's self-evidently true (like you do).

Next Fru makes the unbiblical claim that "saving faith" has the property of endurance. Gee, I thought endurance was a gift of the Holy Spirit, given to those who God causes to be born again. Oh well, Paul must have got it wrong according to Fru when he wrote patience is the fruit of the Spirit.

Amazing how desparate you're getting to deflect attention when someone posts such a damaging critique of your arguments! Rather than simply acknowledge your error you're now postulating such patently ridiculous (and unscriptural) notions as perseverance not being a property of true faith. Does saving faith have no actual existence at any point in time?

Of course patience (endurance) is a fruit of the Spirit...but endurance in WHAT? Faith.

Yes, a lack of endurance is clear evidence the person is not born again. That is the point I am making using Matthew 13:20-22, they had not been regenerated, they were not born again, as demonstrated by the fact they fell away, yet in their fallen state they were seeking God.

WRONG! That is a presumption of convenience on your part, and once again clear evidence of wrongly interpreting a parable as an allegory. NOWHERE in the parable itself or in Jesus' explanation does it say anything about them seeking God, yet you are trying to twist it into saying so just to prove your point. All that is indicated by Jesus' explanation is that they "responded with joy." There is no justification whatsoever for your insistence that anyone who gives a joyous response only to fall away had responded thus because of a genuine seeking after God rather than simply seeking after self.

And not to put too fine a point of it, but the reformed view is not that unregenerate folks cannot muster the sort of faith that God would credit as righteousness, it is that they cannot even seek God for they are in a state of total spiritual inability. Your view, that they possess limited spiritual ability, just insufficient to be acceptable to God, is not the Calvinist view. Calvinism is often defended folks by running away from Calvinist doctrines when scripture clearly shows they are false.

As usual, you present yourself as the definitive authority on Calvinism even though you have been repeatedly and clearly shown to be misrepresenting and misstating the Reformed view. As you said before, anyone who read Sproul would not make the mistakes you're making. You certainly shouldn't be making them given your presumed ability to be able to interpret the Westminster Confession:

"Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come to Christ, and therefore can not be saved: much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the law of that religion they do profess; and to assert and maintain that they may is without warrant of the Word of God." - WCF,X,iv
​

It requires no "spiritual ability" to get caught up in the emotion of a revival and make a profession of faith thinking it will get you the reward of eternal life (and whatever benefits the preacher may throw out there). Salvation is not gained by profession of faith, but rather by possession of faith.

The Parable of the Sower demonstrates that Total Spiritual Inability is false doctrine.

Only in your imagination, Van. There is simply no justification at all for insisting that those who "responded with joy" did so because they were truly seeking God or were otherwise exercising some spiritual ability to seek after salvation.

QED

 

[frumanchu]

Give me a break, seeking after God demonstrates some spiritual ability, otherwise they would not seek after God. It is a lock. The Bible teaches limited spiritual ability and we would disagree upon the extent, with you saying not enough that God would credit our faith as righteousness, and me say if you believe from the heart with all your heart, He does.

The insistence that those who responded with joy were spiritually seeking after God is wholly unjustified and without merit. As has been demonstrated, it is an argument of convience rather than one based on sound hermeneutics and exegesis.

 

[msortwell]

Originally Posted by Van

The Parable of the Sower demonstrates that Total Spiritual Inability is false doctrine.​

Originally Posted by Van

Seeking after God demonstrates some spiritual ability, therefore the Calvinist doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability is false doctrine. Why not admit what you believe is "Limited Spiritual Ability." You would still be a four point Calvinist. But of course, if a person can trust in God and receive the gospel with joy, who is to say God might not credit that faith as righteousness? So we are down to three. And who is to say a person might trust in Christ initially but turn away before he fully trusts in Christ with all his heart. That would mean we are down to two. And then if you agree with John Calvin that it is incontestable that Christ died for all mankind, we are down to being a one point Calvinist, just like me.

No . . . Jesus' explanation of the parable of the sower demonstrates that the unregenerate can respond to God's word at some level. They might even believe that they are understanding what it offers. However, considering that which is taught clearly in 1 Cor 2:14 . . .

1 Cor 2:14, But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. KJV

and is reinforced in John 3 . . .

John 3:6-7
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. KJV

we must try to understand what limitations there are upon their understanding of that to which they are responding - and what, precisely, that response entails.

Certainly it is obvious that unregenerate men can profess Christ as their Saviour, only to turn away from the Christian life later on. We see this over and over again with those who, "walk the isle" or who, "with every head bowed and every eye closed," raise their hands indicating that they have come to accept salvation through Christ.

Additionally, there are no genuine Calvinists that hold the position that the unregenerate cannot respond to words that describe the gospel, or explanations regarding the broader aspects of God's Word. But unregenerate men, responding inappropriately or inadequately to the offer of the gospel does not argue against spiritual inability - and I suspect you know this. To offer that it does undermine the doctrine of spiritual inability displays either confusion regarding the meaning of the doctrine, or disingenuous argumentation. The doctrine of spiritual inability offers that an unregenerate man cannot respond appropriately to spiritual truths, because he is unwilling to do so. He is unwilling to submit himself to the truth that has been made clear to him. He will remain in willing denial of the truth. Although he may accept as truth a perverted version of God's truth.

In the instance of those described in the aforementioned parable we should first understand that the language employed in Matt 13 is not language pertaining to justification. The Scriptures do NOT teach that whosoever "receiveth" (lambano) Christ will have eternal life, but whosoever "believeth" (pisteuo). Only in John 1:12, 13 do the Scriptures link lambano to justification, and in that application the subjects who have received must ALSO come to faith/belief in Christ - and must be begotten of God.

John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. KJV

Similarly, where there is a similar lesson recorded in Luke 8, the language used for those who immediately seemed to accept the Word, are not words directly related to salvation.

Here, however, the author records the lesson from a slightly different perspective, while still making it clear that there was something different between those who "receiveth the Word with joy," or as described in Luke 8 "for a while believed" and the truly saved.

Luke 8:13, They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. KJV

Like our justification DOES NOT hinge upon our "receiving" the gospel, it also DOES NOT rely upon our willingness to "believe" in the manner expressed in Luke 8:13.

John 3:16 indicates that whosoever "believeth . . ." will have life everlasting (i.e., they are justified). However, despite the fact that a Strong's (or similar reference work) will tell us that both Luke 8:13 and John 3:16 employ pisteuo, they use the word in two different forms, having significantly different meanings.

John 3:16 uses pisteuo in its participle form. The participle form is a "verbal noun." It indicates far more than mere mental ascent. It means that the "belief" is an attribute of the person - it is not just something that they do, it is who they are. Young's literal translation provides this translation (en lieu of whosoever believeth), "everyone who is believing." It is terribly awkward in English, but more indicative of saving (enduring) faith.

Therefore, the parable DOES NOT teach against spiritual inability. The text gives no indication that those who received the word with joy, or believed temporarily, responded to the truth of God's Word. Rather, its teaching is limited to warning us that an excited, and even heart-felt response to God's Word is not necessarily indicative of saving faith.

Evidence of this truth abounds in our Evangelical churches today. We draw the unbelieving to the truth in God's Word that our lives will be greatly enriched and improved as we conform our lives to the teachings of Christ. In effect - We offer Jesus up as the next great 12 step program, and many receive that message with joy, professing for a while to believe. However, when they discover that Jesus does not eradicate the difficulties from life they fall away - often largely innoculated against the ministry of the true gospel of Christ.

What a blessing it is that we have a Sovereign God who can use us to save souls despite our all-to-frequent mishandling of His truth.

Blessings,

Mike

 

[chestertonrules]

John 3:6-7
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. KJV

All men are born of the flesh.

Thankfully, we are all given the opportunity for rebirth in the spirit, if we don't refuse the gift of grace given to us by God through Jesus:

• For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
  1Cor. 15:21-22

• Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

• Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
  John 12:31-32

 

[mattlock73]

Give me a break, seeking after God demonstrates some spiritual ability, otherwise they would not seek after God. It is a lock. The Bible teaches limited spiritual ability and we would disagree upon the extent, with you saying not enough that God would credit our faith as righteousness, and me say if you believe from the heart with all your heart, He does.

So you are saying that you have to meet God halfway? We have to work our way to salvation?

 

[chestertonrules]

So you are saying that you have to meet God halfway? We have to work our way to salvation?

We have to cooperate with God's grace.

The bible is exceedingly clear. We can't do it alone, but we must do it!

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."

 

[mattlock73]

We have to cooperate with God's grace.

The bible is exceedingly clear. We can't do it alone, but we must do it!

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."

Wrong answer my friend. It is a free gift of grace through faith, and not of works. It does not get any more simple that that. We cannot merit salvation, even a little bit of it. If we could, then Christ died in vain.

 

[chestertonrules]

Wrong answer my friend. It is a free gift of grace through faith, and not of works. It does not get any more simple that that. We cannot merit salvation, even a little bit of it. If we could, then Christ died in vain.

The scriptures are clear.

Why can't you accept them?

Here are a few more for you to consider:

Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

John 6:53-54 "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you have no life in you; he who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by WORKS, and not by faith alone."

1 Peter 1:17 If you call "Father" the one who judges everyone impartially according to what they have done, you must live in reverent fear as long as you are strangers in a strange land.

 

[Van]

Hi Mattlock73, I have a riddle for you. Why is it that every time I see "so you are saying..." what follows is obviously unbiblical. If the effort was actually to paraphrase my position, it would be right perhaps more than half the time. rather than wrong nearly 100% of the time. Why is that?

Do you really think the bible says you can work your way to heaven? I think not. But does God say He credits our faith as righteousness? Romans 4:5. Well then, the Bible teaches that our faith provides our access to God's grace. Romans 5:2.

 

[msortwell]

Thankfully, we are all given the opportunity for rebirth in the spirit . . .

Do you believe that the Bible verses that you cited indicate that all men born in God's creation, without exception, are given an opportunity for rebirth?

And based upon the following . . .

. . . if we don't refuse the gift of grace given to us by God through Jesus:

. . . would this mean that you believe that all men born in God's creation, without exception, irrespective of place or time of birth (during the past 2000 years) receive and explanation of the gospel of Jesus Christ?

 

[mattlock73]

The scriptures are clear.

Why can't you accept them?

Here are a few more for you to consider:

Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

John 6:53-54 "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you have no life in you; he who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by WORKS, and not by faith alone."

1 Peter 1:17 If you call "Father" the one who judges everyone impartially according to what they have done, you must live in reverent fear as long as you are strangers in a strange land.

You cannot work your way to salvation. Period. Works are important, but they are the fruit of our salvation and our sanctification, not the cause of it. If you are saved, you will do good works as you have the Holy Spirit's prompting. It's the point that James was making when he says that faith without works is dead and show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works.