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RTE (Road to Emmaus)

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Does 1 Timothy 2:4 indicate that God desires all men to be saved or only some previously selected Jews and Gentiles?
In the context, it means all kinds of men.

In fact the passage starts off with "for kings and all that are in authority", and even tells us that the main reason to pray for them is not that they will be saved, but that the existing saved might "lead a quiet and peacable life"





Christ died as a ransom for all, and all refers to all men. 1 Timothy 2:6.
The fact that he died as a ransom for all, requires evidence. It is not good enough for Paul to just declare that Christ died for all, in the face of the fact that God’s people had to that point been one race only, even Israel.

So Paul advances evidence: he points out by implication ("testified" – the fact had been attested to) that non-Jews had become converted, which he implies was in line with the fact that he was a minister to the Gentiles.

He was referring to events such as that which had occurred at Pentecost with the foreign visitors, the salvation of the Samaritans under Philip, and to his own ministry to the Gentiles, an unusual and unexpected ministry given the Jews' theretofore exclusive possession of the oracles of God.

It is logically invalid to derive that Christ was ransomed for every single person from the mere fact that some non-Jews had been converted, for unless every person is converted, there is nothing to support the derivation. It is only valid to derive that Christ’s ransom was not restricted to Jews. Any further ‘derivation’ is a jerk of the knee, not theology.

Therefore, the "all" intends "not only Jews", and you are revealed to be unlearned, as usual, and one who does not stop to properly take things in context for fear of finding out that the truth goes against what you declare.
 
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Van

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Folks, post 21 simply denies Paul's words are the inspired word of God. Nothing more need be said.

Does 1 Timothy 2:4 indicate that God desires all men to be saved or only some previously selected Jews and Gentiles?
Christ died as a ransom for all, and all refers to all men. 1 Timothy 2:6. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2 Even John Calvin indicated that the fact that Christ died for all mankind is incontestable.
 
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RTE (Road to Emmaus)

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As you demonstrate, you cannot counter what I have taught at post 21, and are therefore defeated.

This just proves that you only ostensibly declare scripture the referee: in fact you will hold to your position no matter what you hear, thus proving that you are one convinced against your will, and of the same opinion still.

Therefore I do not write for you, but for the onlookers who want to learn.

Post 21, and its precursor, post 9, are correct.


Compare also:

God says elsewhere:

1. Every man shall have praise of God.
2. God would pour out His Spirit on all flesh
3. God would draw all men unto Him
4. We are also told that all Jerusalem was afraid of the birth of Christ, yet Simeon the prophet lived in Jerusalem and was looking forward to it.

None of the quantifiers are absolute, but qualified.

Your ‘understanding’ is simply a product of shallow, gentile, modern evangelical, emotional, ignorance. You need to spend some time with some Jews and witness how they think.
 
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mattlock73

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Hi Mattlock. lets leave it that whoever believes in Him shall not perish. That is a conditional covenant. Whoever refers to anyone and if anyone believes in Jesus as determined by God, Romans 4:5, they will not perish.

Next, does a person have their own capacity to trust in Christ? Nope. God created us that way so we could trust in Christ if we so choose. It is irrational to say God sets before us a choice, yet did not give us the capacity to make a choice. And it is irrational to say choice means non-choice. My views do not reverse the meaning of scripture, but Calvinism does. Whole world means part of the world, all men means some of all men, choice means non-choice, trusting in Christ means relying on the works of the Law for earning salvation, and on and on.
So let's just throw out any scripture that does not agree with your theology? You referenced Rom 4:5 which again says believeth. Why do they believe? Where does Calvin's theology state that trusting in Christ means relying on works of the law?
 
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Van

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In post 21 you taught, RTE, that Paul letters are not inspired, and can be disregarded. And you ignored that John also taught that Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world.

Christ died as a ransom for all, and all refers to all men. 1 Timothy 2:6. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2 Even John Calvin indicated that the fact that Christ died for all mankind is incontestable.
 
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Epiphoskei

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Christ died as a ransom for all, and all refers to all men. 1 Timothy 2:6. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2 Even John Calvin indicated that the fact that Christ died for all mankind is incontestable.

Oh really? Concerning I John 2:2 he writes,

"'And not for ours only'

He added this for the sake of amplifying, in order that the faithful might be assured that the expiation made by Christ, extends to all who by faith embrace the gospel.
Here a question may be raised, how have the sins of the whole world been expiated? I pass by the dotages of the fanatics, who under this pretense extend salvation to all the reprobate, and therefore to Satan himself. Such a monstrous thing deserves no refutation. They who seek to avoid this absurdity, have said that Christ suffered sufficiently for the whole world, but efficiently only for the elect. This solution has commonly prevailed in the schools. Though then I allow that what has been said is true, yet I deny that it is suitable to this passage; for the design of John was no other than to make this benefit common to the whole Church. Then under the word all or whole, he does not include the reprobate, but designates those who should believe as well as those who were then scattered through various parts of the world. For then is really made evident, as it is meet, the grace of Christ, when it is declared to be the only true salvation of the world."

That's limited atonement right there.
 
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nobdysfool

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In post 21 you taught, RTE, that Paul letters are not inspired, and can be disregarded.
No. RTE taught that your responses where not inspired nor inspiring and should be disregarded by all men, without exception.

Post 21 did not say what is being accused by whoever made the charge. As such, the accusation is blatant, bald-faced lie. I can read post 21 for myself, and the quoted statement is false, and nothing like that, or even close to that, was said in post 21.

As for your assessment, Blood, I could not agree more.
 
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Van

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RTE said:
It is not good enough for Paul to just declare that Christ died for all, in the face of the fact that God’s people had to that point been one race only, even Israel.


In post 21, quoted above, you taught, RTE, that Paul letters are not inspired, and can be disregarded, that His inspired words are not "good enough."
 
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bling

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Van said:
Hi Bling, lets go over the idea of being kept by the power of God. This word means to be kept as in a jail cell. If you are locked in a jail cell, you are being kept. If you are in a cell with the door open so you can walk away, you are not being kept. Therefore, your view of 1 Peter 1:3-5 rewrites the meaning of "kept." Not how scripture reads.
From Barne’s notes: The word which is used here, and rendered "kept," ( ́ phroureō ,) is rendered in II Corinthians 11:32, kept with a garrison; in Galatians 3:23, and here, kept; in Philippians 4:7, shall keep. It does not elsewhere occur in the New Testament. It means to keep, as in a garrison or fortress; or as with a military watch. The idea is, that there was a faithful guardianship exercised over them to save them from danger, as a castle or garrison is watched to guard it against the approach of an enemy. The meaning is, that they were weak in themselves, and were surrounded by temptations; and that the only reason why they were preserved was, that God exerted his power to keep them. The only reason which any Christians have to suppose they will ever reach heaven, is the fact that God keeps them by his own power.

They idea Barnes and I seem to agree on is that “Kept” is a guarantied security against our enemies, what God can not do and will not do is protect us against our selves. We are still free will agents and are not prevented from walking away. You have said before God does not force us to be saved. Which is consistent with God not forcing us to stay saved. Do you personally feel that it way your free will choice to believe in Christ as your savior? Then how has your feeling changed so you now know your free will choosing ability has stopped? Is there no way possible for you or any other Christian to make the choice to walk away from God what is stopping them or you? Why does Paul, Peter, James, and John warn Christians not to fall away if they can’t?


Van said:
The Bible says God created mankind. The Bible says God does has He pleases. Therefore God had a purpose in creating mankind, but it was God's sovereign choice to create mankind, He did not have to because of something apart from God's sovereign choice. 1 Peter 2:9-10 tells us God chooses some of mankind to be His own possession so that those chosen may proclaim God's glory. We bring glory to God when we repent and turn to God, so God created mankind with the ability to repent and bring glory to God. If God compelled by irresistible grace our repentance, that would not bring glory to God. What is our mission statement? To glorify God.

Do you believe Godly Love should be the compelling force behind all your actions?
Do you think God would be a good example of a purpose driven Life and be compelled by His Love?

Since God could create Humans that could obtain Godly type Love like Himself would he then not be compelled to create such Humans?

You can take any command given by God and say that is man’s objective with Biblical support to prove it. As in any large organization there are many objects and even departmental mission statements, but there is one mission statement that all must be subordinate to. We are to “Glorify God” but that is not a behavioral objective and a tree glorifies God by being a tree, so it lacks direction.
Try this: Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and energy and Love others. Now we just need to define “Love” and others. The “heart, soul, mind and energy” we can assume would include all we have. Jesus defines “others” and really “Love” with the story of the “Good Samaritan”.

Does a person that does not fulfill his/her earthly objective go to be with God?
How would a “saved Christian” that had turned away from God totally and publicly be a glory to God?
 
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sola_scriptura

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Here are the four points of the TULIP, in John MacArthur's words, that I believe are unbiblical.

“Total depravity” means you can’t do anything to save yourself. You can’t even make a right choice. You can’t awaken your spiritual deadness. You can’t give life where there is death. You can’t come to a right conclusion on your own. Total depravity means that everyone, is by virtue of their own will and their own power and their own choices, incapable of redemption. That’s total depravity.”

This statement is almost biblical, only the “bolded” sentences are unbiblical. God sets before us the choice between life and death, and therefore to say we are unable to choose life contradicts scripture. To avoid the obvious contradiction, Calvinists say when you choose the only choice available, death, you are actually making a “choice.” But that redefines “choice” to mean “non-choice.” Jesus teaches in Matthew 13:20-22 that some men who are dead in their trespasses and sins received the gospel with joy, certainly the right choice. Therefore the "T" in the Tulip is unbiblical if it is asserted to apply to all men.

“In the case of “Unconditional election”, you have the view in the Scripture that the people who are saved are saved because they were chosen by God apart from any merit of their own, apart from any condition.”

This statement is completely unbiblical, James 2:5 tells us God chooses people based on their condition, those rich in faith, those that love God, and those who do not treasure the things of this world. Paul teaches a similar truth in 1 Corinthians 1:26-31. And again, Paul teaches that God chooses people in his day, just as God chose people who were faithful in Romans 11:3-6. John 3:16 says whoever believes in Him shall not perish.

“Limited atonement”, in the typical reformed view, means that the atonement, in its actual work, the actual efficacy of the atonement, was only for the elect.”

Again, this statement is completely unbiblical, 1 John 2:2 tells us that Christ became the propitiation (means of salvation) not only for us (members of the Church) but also for the whole world. Paul tells us He laid down His life as a ransom for all. Therefore the finished work of the cross provides (1) the means of salvation available to all men, and (2) provides salvation for anyone spiritually placed in Christ.

“Irresistible grace”, which is the idea that when the spirit of God works on the heart of a sinner, the sinner can’t resist.”

And finally, this too, is almost biblical. But it is carefully crafted to blend the idea that God's will, what ever it is, cannot be resisted, with the false idea that God's will is to compel people with Irresistible Grace to trust in Christ. However, in Matthew 23:13 men who are entering, or trying to enter the Kingdom of Yahweh, and therefore could not be turned aside because of irresistible grace if the premise were true, are turned aside and do not enter. Therefore it is God's will to allow men to accept or reject the gospel and not compel them as Calvinism wrongly asserts.

Indeed the idea of universal grace i.e. the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, is in Scripture, but IMO it is often misunderstood.

There is a difference between appearing to all men and being received by all men. I frequently hear that God would not give us commands and would not have given us the choice between life and death in futility. In other words the common perception is that Calvinism posits that the choices God gives us in Scripture are illusory, which draws the ire of the broader Christian world.

However, this is exactly what God has done throughout Biblical history. God knew Israel would break covenant with Him long before they began bowing to other gods. We know because He tells us this in no uncertain terms. So effectively God gave His people commands He knew they would disobey.

Many others posit God would not create people merely for condemnation, however, this ignores verses like Proverbs Chap. 16 verse 4.

The message of atonement has appeared before all men. In other words the message of Christ is available to all even though God knows not all will receive it. Indeed even the persuasion of the Holy Spirit is resisted by men, as we see in Acts chap. 7 verse 51. Christ ministered to those who rejected His message. These aspects of grace are not denied to all people, however, they will only be received by the elect. Not only does Scripture testify to this, human history confirms it as well.

Now many will say yes this is true, but God really looked down the tunnel of time to see who resisted and who obeyed. However, is this what saved by grace means? Aren't we told that our own efforts, will power, desires, etc. have no place in the economy of salvation? That we are formed by God like a potter forms his clay?

The elect were foreknown by God in a real sense, like we see with Jeremiah (chap. 1 verse 5) We were formed in the womb, like an engineer builds a machine. We can no sooner resist grace than a machine designed to produce rolls of paper can fly.

Passages such as Ephesian chap. 1 verses 4-5 confirm we were predestined for adoption before the founding of the world. In the Gospel of John chap. 3 verse 18 we learn that those who do not believe, are not only condemned but condemned "already" (a past tense event).

The problem with many people's views on Calvin is in the first instance an erroneous understanding of what Calvin actually taught (even some Calvinists don't quite understand his teachings all that well).

Many Calvinists will say, for example, that in many cases where the word "all" is used it does not mean "all" in the natural sense; rather it only applies to the elect. This is true in certain cases, however, I've seen cases where the context demands that "all" mean "all" in the natural sense, where a Calvinist would say it does not (and thereby shoot our soteriology in the foot). They don't understand the notions the effectual calling and common grace (or reject the idea of common grace outright).

Many are called but few are chosen. Does this mean everyone is called? Paul tells us in Romans chap. 10 verse 16 that people cannot believe if they never hear the word, and can only hear if someone preaches to them. Millions, perhaps billions have lived and died without ever hearing the Gospel message. Arminians will say that somehow they did hear the Gospel message, or go through theological gymnastics to affirm their faulty idea that all aspects of grace are imputed to mankind universally. The idea smacks against logic, and our own human history testifies to the error of this presumption.

However, remember those ancient Hebrews, who spent 40 years in the desert, but many still would up disobeying God and drawing His condemnation. God foretold that they would do this & of course they did. He was in their midst during this entire period, His grace was all around them, yet they resisted as they were destined to do. In the end the prophets and only 7,000 who did not bow to baal were kept by God.

So all of these people were "called" but only few were ultimately chosen. You will say how is that anyone can resist God's will? But who are we to say to the potter why have you formed me like this? Doesn't the potter have the right to make one lump for honorable use and the other for reprobation? Indeed He does and He did.
 
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chestertonrules

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Indeed the idea of universal grace i.e. the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, is in Scripture, but IMO it is often misunderstood.

There is a difference between appearing to all men and being received by all men. I frequently hear that God would not give us commands and would not have given us the choice between life and death in futility. In other words the common perception is that Calvinism posits that the choices God gives us in Scripture are illusory, which draws the ire of the broader Christian world.

However, this is exactly what God has done throughout Biblical history. God knew Israel would break covenant with Him long before they began bowing to other gods. We know because He tells us this in no uncertain terms. So effectively God gave His people commands He knew they would disobey.

Many others posit God would not create people merely for condemnation, however, this ignores verses like Proverbs Chap. 16 verse 4.

The message of atonement has appeared before all men. In other words the message of Christ is available to all even though God knows not all will receive it. Indeed even the persuasion of the Holy Spirit is resisted by men, as we see in Acts chap. 7 verse 51. Christ ministered to those who rejected His message. These aspects of grace are not denied to all people, however, they will only be received by the elect. Not only does Scripture confirm this, human history confirms this.

Now many will say yes this is true, but God really looked down the tunnel of time to see who resisted and who obeyed. However, is this what saved by grace means? Aren't we told that our own efforts, will power, desires, etc. have no place in the economy of salvation? That we are formed by God like a potter forms his clay?

The elect were foreknown by God in a real sense, like we see with Jeremiah (chap. 1 verse 5) We were formed in the womb, like an engineer builds a machine. We can no sooner resist grace than a machine designed to produce rolls of paper can fly.



God won't leave us, but we can leave him. Our salvation depends on our cooperation with the grace of Jesus. God created us in his image with the ability to choose him, which he wants us to do, or to reject him:


2 Chronicles 15:2 "If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you".

Hebrews 3:12-14 "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end."


2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".

2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father."
John 15:4-6 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".
 
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sola_scriptura

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God won't leave us, but we can leave him. Our salvation depends on our cooperation with the grace of Jesus. God created us in his image with the ability to choose him, which he wants us to do, or to reject him:


2 Chronicles 15:2 "If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you".

Hebrews 3:12-14 "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end."


2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".

2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father."
John 15:4-6 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".

In our reference frame in time this is all true. However, it should be understood that no one can seek God without first being regenerated by Him. If we are to think that our own meritorious character can somehow earn God's favor then grace is no longer grace.

That being said you might say that Arminian doctrine is true in many ways from a humanistic perspective. That is in our reference frame in time according to our own sensory perception indeed we have a choice to make. In fact it's not just a single choice, but rather a series of choice we face every moment.

So I do not deny that we need to endure to the end -- I just understand that the elect always will endure to the end.
 
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chestertonrules

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In our reference frame in time this is all true. However, it should be understood that no one can seek God without first being regenerated by Him. If we are to think that our own meritorious character can somehow earn God's favor then grace is no longer grace.

That being said you might say that Arminian doctrine is true in many ways from a humanistic perspective. That is in our reference frame in time according to our own sensory perception indeed we have a choice to make. In fact it's not just a single choice, but rather a series of choice we face every moment.

So I do not deny that we need to endure to the end -- I just understand that the elect always will endure to the end.

God calls to all men. We can accept or reject his grace. Only those that endure to the end are the elect. This is based on our collaboration with God's will, not based on his drawing your name out of a hat, so to speak.

God rewards us for following his will though the power of grace that he offers to all.


The scriptures I provided are very clear.
 
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sola_scriptura

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God calls to all men. We can accept or reject his grace. Only those that endure to the end are the elect. This is based on our collaboration with God's will, not based on his drawing your name out of a hat, so to speak.

God rewards us for following his will though the power of grace that he offers to all.


The scriptures I provided are very clear.

The scriptures you provided only confirm that our faith must endure to the end. First, I never denied this, second you ignored the verses I cited discussing election?

I do not even deny that some aspects of grace (i.e. atonement & the work of the Holy Spirit) are somewhat universal (although one must hear the word to know Jesus died for their sins -- if you think one who has never been exposed to the Gospel message can somehow know about Christ's atoning sacrifice you would have to make an affirmative case ... since it is really quite nonsensical).

However, only the elect (His sheep) will hear His voice.

From our perspective, yes, we are only saved once we actually hear and respond to the Gospel message. However, for God election is a past event, a completed action.

We aren't elected because we respond, we respond because we're elected. To say otherwise is to give credit to ourselves, which scripture clearly reveals we cannot do.
 
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chestertonrules

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The scriptures you provided only confirm that our faith must endure to the end. First, I never denied this, second you ignored the verses I cited discussing election?

I do not even deny that some aspects of grace (i.e. atonement & the work of the Holy Spirit) are somewhat universal (although one must hear the word to know Jesus died for their sins -- if you think one who has never been exposed to the Gospel message can somehow know about Christ's atoning sacrifice you would have to make an affirmative case ... since it is really quite nonsensical).

Here are a couple of passages that make the case implicitly if not explicitly:

1 Peter 3
18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.”





However, only the elect (His sheep) will hear His voice.

From our perspective, yes, we are only saved once we actually hear and respond to the Gospel message. However, for God election is a past event, a completed action.

We aren't elected because we respond, we respond because we're elected.

I think the bible is clear that it is up to us to respond. Refusing Jesus is an act of human will.

John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

How can we refuse something we haven't been offered?


God knows all of our actions already. He knows who will choose to follow him. It has already happened. We don't know, however, so we must follow his instructions for becoming one of the chosen.

The bible is clear that God wants us all to choose him, but he won't force us.

  • Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
    John 12:31-32
  • For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
    1Cor. 15:21-22
  • Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:1
  • For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
    Rom 11:32
 
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frumanchu

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This doctrine is demonstrated false by Matthew 13:20-22 where unregenerate folks receive the gospel with joy, thereby demonstrating they were seeking God and believed God rewards those who seek Him.

Yikes...I thought Ben was the only one who ripped this verse from its context and forced a preconceived meaning upon it...

The Parable of the Sower is just that...a parable. It is NOT allegorical. The purpose of the parable was to demonstrate the different reactions they can expect to see to the sowing of the Word.

Scripture makes it clear that saving faith is one which endures; that is, endurance is a property of saving faith, not a cause of it.

I have checked in the past with several commentaries, by both Reformed commentators (Gill, Henry, Sproul) and decidedly non-Reformed (Coffman, MacDonald, Clarke) commentators, and there is agreement among all of them. They all see the lack of endurance through temptation to be an indication of a less-than-genuine faith (citing 1 John 2:19).

That said, your own position defeats the use of this verse, Van. If, as you believe, believers are preserved in their faith, then these individuals could not possibly have truly believed or they never would have departed under persecution.

It is thus simply not a viable argument against the doctrine of total depravity, for in admitting yourself (if you are consistent with your theology that is) that they did not have true faith you uphold the Reformed view that the unregenerate cannot savingly believe in Christ. You are left with the type of situation we see unfortunately all too often: individuals who "joyfully" proclaim themselves Christian for reasons other than a true faith and trust in Jesus Christ, usually believing they can partake of the benefits of those in Him simply by playing the part.

At the end of the day, the Parable of the Sower is among the weakest of arguments used against the Reformed doctrine of Total Depravity, and the vast majority of non-Reformed scholars and commentators recognize that it does not speak to the issues at hand.
 
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Van

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Hi Bling, no sale. How is the word used in all the places it appears?

Galatians 3:23 we were kept under the law. Now according to your argument, we could walk away and not be under the law. Not the idea of the inspired text.

Philippians 4:7, the peace of God shall keep or guard our hearts and minds. If our hearts and minds are being kept and guarded, by the peace of God, we would have to escape from God Almighty. Not the idea of the inspired text.

2 Corinthians 11:32, we see that Paul had to "escape" from the city because it was being kept by a ruler. But if the ruler is God Almighty, you cannot escape.

Bottom line, in every usage, the idea is to be kept so you will get what the keeper desires. And in our verse, 1 Peter 1:5, we are being kept by God Almighty so that we will get "a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
 
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Van

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Hi Fru, not to put too fine a point on it but Matthew 13:20-22 is not part of the parable, it is part of Christ's explanation of the parable. The meaning is straightforward.

Next, I am charged with taking a verse out of context. Calvinists defend their false doctrines by making one charge after another against those who present the truth. File all of his charges under "evasion of the topic."

Next Fru makes the unbiblical claim that "saving faith" has the property of endurance. Gee, I thought endurance was a gift of the Holy Spirit, given to those who God causes to be born again. Oh well, Paul must have got it wrong according to Fru when he wrote patience is the fruit of the Spirit.

Yes, a lack of endurance is clear evidence the person is not born again. That is the point I am making using Matthew 13:20-22, they had not been regenerated, they were not born again, as demonstrated by the fact they fell away, yet in their fallen state they were seeking God.

And not to put too fine a point of it, but the reformed view is not that unregenerate folks cannot muster the sort of faith that God would credit as righteousness, it is that they cannot even seek God for they are in a state of total spiritual inability. Your view, that they possess limited spiritual ability, just insufficient to be acceptable to God, is not the Calvinist view. Calvinism is often defended folks by running away from Calvinist doctrines when scripture clearly shows they are false.

The Parable of the Sower demonstrates that Total Spiritual Inability is false doctrine.
 
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