The Tulip is broken

[frumanchu]

Lost men can hear the gospel and be saved. They can do that because salvation is the gift of God and it is good news from heaven to every creature under heaven. Receiving the gift God freely offers them is what lost men must do!

Apart from the prior work of the Holy Spirit, lost men won't receive the gift of salvation because they simply don't want to. Their mind is at enmity with God.

I am going to give you a little known principal from holy writ.

Lu 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

It is my duty to judge what those men taught. It is God's duty to judge why they taught it. If God chooses to reward those men in spite of their teaching of error, that is fine with me but it is obvious that their false teaching has had a great influence on your own error.

D. James Kennedy....R.C. Sproul...John MacArthur...Jonathan Edwards...

The list goes on and on. To say that Calvinists care little for evangelism is simply a lie of convenience...a projection of a flawed logical conclusion upon the whole without any evidence to back it up.

You talk a big talk, but that's all it is...talk.

Right! If a calvinist chooses to evangelize he certainly will not tell them that there is about a 96% chance that God has created them for the day of destruction and the high probability is that they are not elect.

Just as the non-Calvinist evangelist rarely starts his Gospel call by pointing out the narrow road and the other Scriptures that pretty clearly state the majority of men will not come to saving faith in Christ. Let me know when you find one who does, especially followed by giving the clear teachings of how difficult it is to be a disciple of Christ.

No, the fact is you must use the words of the so called arminian and the scripture. "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved".

Those words aren't exclusive to the Arminian. They are a statement of fact...a simple conditional statement. It doesn't say anything about who will call upon the name of the Lord or why. It simply says what it says, and we preach it with confidence.

The honest calvinist just stays at home and does nothing rather than deal with such confliction!

The honest Calvinist preaches the whole counsel of God, and he withholds the Gospel call from no one.

 

[armothe]

Furthermore, Calvinism is a doctrine for the saved, not for the purposes of evangelism. It is an edificatory device.

The honest Calvinist preaches the whole counsel of God, and he withholds the Gospel call from no one.

This is where the rest of us become confused. It's not the first time I heard both angles, but obviously one of them must be incorrect. The purpose of the Word of God being such an important issue, I'd expect a standard interpretation within Calvinism.

-A

 

[frumanchu]

This is where the rest of us become confused. It's not the first time I heard both angles, but obviously one of them must be incorrect. The purpose of the Word of God being such an important issue, I'd expect a standard interpretation within Calvinism.

-A

No, there is not really a contradiction between the two. An "evangelistic" sermon would not be focused on the particular doctrines of Calvinist soteriology for the same reason that an Arminian would not preach on matters of predestination or perseverance: they are doctrines relevant to believers.

That said, the primary focus of a Calvinist preacher's sermon on a given Sunday is not purely evangelism. He preaches the whole counsel of God, trusting in the Holy Spirit to work according to His purpose to bring men to faith in Christ. He does not avoid evangelism...quite the contrary! But he also does not make it the primary focus of his preaching.

Just this week I spent some time listening to Dr. Arturo Azurdia III preaching through the first chapter of Hebrews. He was unabashedly Reformed in his preaching, yet was also very clearly both admonishing believers to faithfulness to Christ and calling upon unbelievers to repent and turn to Christ for salvation.

 

[beloved57]

Furthermore, Calvinism is a doctrine for the saved, not for the purposes of evangelism

This is incorrect, evangelism #1 is for the saved, its the bringing of the good news of their salvation..secondly, the doctrines of grace are the gospel anyway..

 

[JDS]

Apart from the prior work of the Holy Spirit, lost men won't receive the gift of salvation because they simply don't want to. Their mind is at enmity with God.

The prior work of God is the preaching of the cross of Jesus Christ. "This is the work of God, that you believe on him...."
If God has stated something else, please quote him saying it.

D. James Kennedy....R.C. Sproul...John MacArthur...Jonathan Edwards...

The list goes on and on. To say that Calvinists care little for evangelism is simply a lie of convenience...a projection of a flawed logical conclusion upon the whole without any evidence to back it up.
.

This is a great problem among calvinists. Hero worship! Since when has God called men to be pastors to the world? God calls pastors to pastor local churches and a major part of that calling is teaching the doctrines of the faith. What we have with these high profile personalities is collective thinking and, well... prideful thinking like we have just experienced here.

Just as the non-Calvinist evangelist rarely starts his Gospel call by pointing out the narrow road and the other Scriptures that pretty clearly state the majority of men will not come to saving faith in Christ. Let me know when you find one who does, especially followed by giving the clear teachings of how difficult it is to be a disciple of Christ.
.

It is easier to proselyte than it is to evangelize. No doubt most people that are pro-calvinist here on this forum can give a testimony that they were evangelized by non calvinists. You probably can.

Those words aren't exclusive to the Arminian. They are a statement of fact...a simple conditional statement. It doesn't say anything about who will call upon the name of the Lord or why. It simply says what it says, and we preach it with confidence.
.

The informed calvinist preaches "unconditional" election.

 

[frumanchu]

The prior work of God is the preaching of the cross of Jesus Christ. This is the work of God, that you believe on him....
If God has stated something else, please quote him saying it.

The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. Moreover, it is GOD who gives the increase. It is not the Word alone...1 Corinthians makes that pretty clear.

This is a great problem among calvinists. Hero worship! Since when has God called men to be pastors to the world? God calls pastors to pastor local churches and a major part of that calling is teaching the doctrines of the faith. What we have with these high profile personalities is collective thinking and, well... prideful thinking like we have just experienced here.

Typical. You make a blatantly erroneous claim about Calvinist preachers, and then when we give you a few well-known examples that disprove it you accuse us of hero worship. I could have just as easily gave you names like David Bayly or Walter Lorenz, but nobody here is likely to know who they are. That's to be expected I guess when a lie is exposed...deflect attention by making an even more outrageous claim.

Your tactic is nothing short of intellectually dishonest and deceptive. But truth doesn't appear to be your aim so much as bashing Calvinism.

It is easier to proselyte than it is to evangelize. No doubt most people that are pro-calvinist here on this forum can give a testimony that they were evangelized by non calvinists. You probably can.

Likewise it's easier to simply dismiss Calvinism based on false premises than to actually concern yourself with truthfully representing it.

The informed calvinist preaches "unconditional" election.

It always me when blatantly anti-Calvinist folks like yourself proclaim what Calvinists do and think, no matter how much evidence from actual Calvinists is given to the contrary. Then again, why let truth get in the way of your agenda?

 

[Van]

Hi JDS, see how Calvinism is defended. With conflicting statements, and mere assertions not supported scripturally. And with disparagement.

One minor point, RTE is not a Calvinist, he does not believe in Original Sin. And Beloved 57 is a hyper-Calvinist and does not reflect mainstream Calvinist thinking. But those actually posting the false doctrines of Calvinism seldom if ever post rebuttals of either one.

Calvinists say a person who has not been regenerated would not seek God. Matthew 13:20-22 describes folks who are not regenerate and are seeking God for they received the gospel with joy.

Calvinism cannot be defended biblically.

 

[frumanchu]

Hi JDS, see how Calvinism is defended. With conflicting statements, and mere assertions not supported scripturally. And with disparagement.

Too bad that a) you didn't demonstrate a contradiction, and b) we support our assertions with Scripture over and over. But don't let truth get in your way either...we all know your agenda is to attack Calvinism at any cost. But of course we're not allowed to point that out because it's "disparagement." A hypocritical charge if ever there was one.

Oops...I was being "disparaging" again....

One minor point, RTE is not a Calvinist, he does not believe in Original Sin. And Beloved 57 is a hyper-Calvinist and does not reflect mainstream Calvinist thinking. But those actually posting the false doctrines of Calvinism seldom if ever post rebuttals of either one.

I for one do not hesitate to correct them when I see their errant doctrines posted. But again, don't let facts like that prevent you from your attack..

Calvinists say a person who has not been regenerated would not seek God. Matthew 13:20-22 describes folks who are not regenerate and are seeking God for they received the gospel with joy.

Calvinism cannot be defended biblically.

I already addressed that very passage and show precisely how you engage in eisegesis in trying to hijack this parable and use it against a strawman version of the Reformed doctrine of total depravity.

But don't let that fact keep you from repeating the same lie over and over. Perhaps if you repeat it often enough you'll win converts to your errant teachings and soldiers in your army of Anti-Calvinists.

 

[nobdysfool]

To claim that Calvinists defend their views by disparaging the anti-Calvinists, is itself disparagement. To accuse others of disparaging their opponents, while disparaging them and their views, is the height of hypocrisy.

This is how the anti-Calvinists defend their unbiblical doctrines, by disparagement, false accusations, and straw men caricatures of Calvinism which they try to pass off as the genuine article, and then claim Calvinists engage in disparagement of them when the falsehoods and straw men are pointed out, all the while engaging in disparagement of Calvinists for being Calvinists.

Such is the case when an agenda is being pursued, rather than the Truth. The agenda being pursued is clear: Attack Calvinism and Calvinists at all costs, by any means, in any way, with relentless disparagement, misinformation, deflections, double-speak, and outright lies if necessary. Muddy the waters, so their discussion of Calvinist views is derailed, sidetracked, deflected, negated and buried under so much static that it cannot be clearly heard.

And the anti-Calvinists accuse Calvinists of sinful activities.....the ultimate lie.

 

[nobdysfool]

Oh, and by the waaay ... the people who seem to impinge most egregiously on my free will are those who seem to be advocates of libertarian free will. They're the people who come up with these emotionally-charged arguments. They're the people who seem to sway with negative, polemical, or downright abusive attacks, denying what Calvinism actually states.

If it were anyone trying to take away a person's real free will -- it's them.

So true, that! You have made a very telling point against the anti-Calvinists. They try to silence Calvinists, while Calvinists only try to uphold the scriptures, and the Truth. We are not trying to "silence" anyone. But the anti-Calvinists here are determined to silence Calvinists. Talk about denying free will! It is the anti-Calvinists, supposed supporters of free will, who want to rob Calvinists and anyone else of the free will to believe differently than they do.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

So true, that! You have made a very telling point against the anti-Calvinists. They try to silence Calvinists, while Calvinists only try to uphold the scriptures, and the Truth. We are not trying to "silence" anyone. But the anti-Calvinists here are determined to silence Calvinists. Talk about denying free will! It is the anti-Calvinists, supposed supporters of free will, who want to rob Calvinists and anyone else of the free will to believe differently than they do.

Actually it is you that try to slience those that oppose you, if you cannot by insults then you will just run to the mods to try and get their posts erased.

 

[frumanchu]

I should think that the mods would only remove posts which violate the forum rules. Having been a mod I can tell you that posts don't get erased purely on the grounds of somebody not liking them.

 

[JDS]

Calvinism cannot be defended biblically.

Thank you Van. This is so very true and few of them even try. The darkness is so very great over them that it reduces men with very high IQ's to reasoning on a grade school level or below. The very idea that a man cannot believe the gospel intellectually when he hears it is so tragic that only the prince of darkness could have come up with it. Imagine what they are telling us; We can choose our car, our wife, our occupation, our school, where we live and on and on but we cannot understand and choose to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ when we hear it if God does not do something special for us. Why is this not a denial of salvation by faith?

Did you know that not a single one of them can give you a verse that tells them they have been personally chosen by God to be saved from among the vast majority he has created for the day of destruction? They are presuming they are elect without any scripture to tell them they are. This in spite of the warning from God that the heart is deceitful above all things and desparately wicked. They are trusting a heart like this because they cannot quote God telling them he has chosen them while condemning millions of others. I don't know about them, but I would not want to show up before God without being able to cite one of his immutable promises of salvation he has made to me. Ones like Jn 3:16 which says; For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. And what about this open ended promise? Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Re 22:17 ....and whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely. These promises are not the language of limitation.

Here, for the record, is some language of limitation.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. This is limited to the 12 apostles he had chosen earlier in Matt 10: Mr 3:13 And he goeth up into a mountain, and calleth [unto him] whom he would: and they came unto him. 14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach.
Lu 6:13 And when it was day, he called [unto him] his disciples: and of them (Of whom? Of his disciples) he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;

(Mr 3:14 And he ordained twelve,)
(Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you)

It is easy to see that Jesus was speaking to these 12 (11) apostles and this context will not permit this to be a TULIP proof text that some are chosen from the foundation of the world to be saved. The choosing was from among other disciples to be apostles to whom were given special gifts and responsibilities of ministry. Context does not stop them from misusing this verse as a prooftext. It is embarrassing!

Here is where he prayed for these 12.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. ( compare Jn 15:15 here- Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.)
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

He continues:

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Joh 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
He can do that because the Father gave them to him. He had previously sent them only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel but now sends them to the world in the great commission.

Now, Van, I am sure you know all this already and I bring it up to show how easily context refutes key proof texts in the scriptures and shines the light on the tulip theology.

I do not bring these things up to anger them, though it might do it, but to get them to think clearly. I think you will agree, this is simple stuff.

 

[RTE (Road to Emmaus)]

JDS,


The prior work of God is the preaching of the cross of Jesus Christ. "This is the work of God, that you believe on him...."
Yes it is the work of God. Which means it is God's work. Which means it is only God's work. Which means it is not your work.





To RTE I'd add: the largest church in the world is Calvinistic. Thanks, My point was that millions are being deceived.
Question-begging wastes space.

But go and see whether you can answer the questions in my threads entitled "The thirty-nine questions the Arminian can’t answer". You won’t get passed question 1.

 

[frumanchu]

Thank you Van. This is so very true and few of them even try.

Ha! I've been here defending Calvinism with Scripture for over five years. I do not shy away from it in the least, nor do many others here. What you've offered is nothing more than empty words...a lie that you're gambling on thinking that nobody will call you on it. You can't lay your cards down because you know you have no hand. I've gone in depth into the Scriptures in these threads while hypocrital Anti-Calvinists sling mud and appeal to people's emotions.

The darkness is so very great over them that it reduces men with very high IQ's to reasoning on a grade school level or below.

Quite amuzing considering the very person you applaud in your post runs like a scared child from a basic logical syllogism demonstrating his position to be conclusively false. He cannot even muster the most basic of logical defenses, and you accuse US of reasoning at a grade school leve. All you're doing is demonstrating your own ignorance and bigotry by engaging in backslapping with this Anti-Calvinist hack.

The very idea that a man cannot believe the gospel intellectually when he hears it is so tragic that only the prince of darkness could have come up with it. Imagine what they are telling us; We can choose our car, our wife, our occupation, our school, where we live and on and on but we cannot understand and choose to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ when we hear it if God does not do something special for us. Why is this not a denial of salvation by faith?

How very surprising that you follow your vile rant with a blatant mischaracterization of the Reformed view. The Reformed view is not that man cannot believe the gospel intellectually. If you paid ANY ATTENTION AT ALL to what we post you'd know that I explicitly have stated that the unregenerate can give intellectual assent to the Gospel. But really...why let what we actually say and believe get in the way of your self-serving version of Calvinism? After all, that would undermine your self-justification for spewing your hatred at us.

Did you know that not a single one of them can give you a verse that tells them they have been personally chosen by God to be saved from among the vast majority he has created for the day of destruction? They are presuming they are elect without any scripture to tell them they are.

Did you know that there's not a single verse in the Bible that says you are saved? Amazing, isn't it? I looked it up and there is nowhere that says you individually are saved. Oh sure, there are plenty of conditional statements in the Scriptures that tell you what to do to be saved and how you can know you are saved, but none of them actually tell you you are saved. You have to draw that extra-biblical conclusion on your own.

Good grief, what lengths will you go to to attack us?!? The only way a Calvinist knows he is numbered among the elect is by inference, and that only for ourselves and not of any other. I know "inference" is a mighty big word coming from one who only can reason at a grade school level, but let me know if you have trouble comprehending it and I'll spell it out for you. All assurance of salvation is subjective....only God has objective knowledge of who is and is not saved, and who is and is not elect.

This in spite of the warning from God that the heart is deceitful above all things and desparately wicked. They are trusting a heart like this because they cannot quote God telling them he has chosen them while condemning millions of others. I don't know about them, but I would not want to show up before God without being able to cite one of his immutable promises of salvation he has made to me. Ones like Jn 3:16 which says; For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. And what about this open ended promise? Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Re 22:17 ....and whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely. These promises are not the language of limitation.

These are the very promises upon which our salvation rests. We do not claim some special knowledge of our own election and then point to that as our salvation. We look to the finished work of Christ for our salvation, putting our trust and faith in Him alone. Any application of the decree of election to ourselves personally is by inference only on the basis of the very immutable promises of salvation you cited.

Here, for the record, is some language of limitation.
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. This is limited to the 12 apostles he had chosen earlier in Matt 10: Mr 3:13 And he goeth up into a mountain, and calleth [unto him] whom he would: and they came unto him. 14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach.
Lu 6:13 And when it was day, he called [unto him] his disciples: and of them (Of whom? Of his disciples) he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;

(Mr 3:14 And he ordained twelve,)
(Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you)

It is easy to see that Jesus was speaking to these 12 (11) apostles and this context will not permit this to be a TULIP proof text that some are chosen from the foundation of the world to be saved. The choosing was from among other disciples to be apostles to whom were given special gifts and responsibilities of ministry. Context does not stop them from misusing this verse as a prooftext. It is embarrassing!

Congratulations. I've never used that as a prooftext for the doctrine of unconditional election. Not once. Ever. Way to go!

Now, Van, I am sure you know all this already and I bring it up to show how easily context refutes key proof texts in the scriptures and shines the light on the tulip theology.

I do not bring these things up to anger them, though it might do it, but to get them to think clearly. I think you will agree, this is simple stuff.

Oh, yes... you declare us to be clouded in darkness and only able to reason at a grade school level at best, that we trust in a deceitful heart, that we implicitly deny salvation by faith, and all these other things...but not to anger us.

Let me tell you something, JDS...I love and seek after truth, and when you ascribe these deceitful LIES to us it does indeed make me angry, and quite justifiably so. So great is the hatred of people like you and Van for Calvinism that you will go to any lengths, telling any lies and jumping upon any perceived opportunity imagineable, to attack us at all costs. And if and when we dare to defend ourselves, we are attacked all the more. I can only imagine what sort of wonderful "disparagements" will come my way now that I dared to stand up against the demonstrable lies you've posted.

Deceitful heart indeed....take a good long look in the mirror, JDS. You have need of repentance.

 

[JDS]

The prior work of God is the preaching of the cross of Jesus Christ. "This is the work of God, that you believe on him...."
Yes it is the work of God. Which means it is God's work. Which means it is only God's work. Which means it is not your work.

Here you go again! Insinuating that faith is a work. IOW, buy into tulip theology and check your intellect, logic, and reasoning at the door.

Ro 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
Ro 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (What is the "it" here? Right, if you said it was his believing)

Try to follow the logic.

Ro 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
IOW, if righteousness came by Abraham's efforts, i e work, then God would have owed hinm righteousness because he would have earned it.

Ro 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Does any calvinist see the logic here? This one passage completely destroys your false premise that if someone believes the gospel, it is works salvation.


Whose faith was it in verse 5? Right, if you said it is the faith of the ungodly AND HIS FAITH IS IMPUTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Did you pick up on that?

Consider what is said about Abraham:

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it (faith) was imputed to him for righteousness.

But watch this:

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it (Righteousness) was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it (righteousness) shall be imputed, IF we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Now, logically speaking, what comes first? Righteousness or faith and which is the cause of the other?

But go and see whether you can answer the questions in my threads entitled "The thirty-nine questions the Arminian can’t answer". You won’t get passed question 1.
[/SIZE]

Ask it here!

 

[heymikey80]

Thank you Van. This is so very true and few of them even try. The darkness is so very great over them that it reduces men with very high IQ's to reasoning on a grade school level or below. The very idea that a man cannot believe the gospel intellectually when he hears it is so tragic that only the prince of darkness could have come up with it. Imagine what they are telling us; We can choose our car, our wife, our occupation, our school, where we live and on and on but we cannot understand and choose to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ when we hear it if God does not do something special for us. Why is this not a denial of salvation by faith?

Did you know that not a single one of them can give you a verse that tells them they have been personally chosen by God to be saved from among the vast majority he has created for the day of destruction? They are presuming they are elect without any scripture to tell them they are.

Accordingly, this assurance does not derive from some private revelation beyond or outside the Word, but from faith in the promises of God which he has very plentifully revealed in his Word for our comfort, from the testimony of the Holy Spirit testifying with our spirit that we are God's children and heirs (Rom. 8:16-17), and finally from a serious and holy pursuit of a clear conscience and of good works. And if God's chosen ones in this world did not have this well-founded comfort that the victory will be theirs and this reliable guarantee of eternal glory, they would be of all people most miserable. Canons of Dordt​

1JO 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. 21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. 1JO 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. WCF 18, among footnotes to "Assurance"
​

When someone asks, "Where does Scripture say that you personally have been chosen?" the obvious point is to look for your name personally enrolled there. And it's not there. We don't have a copy of the Book of Life. Scripture doesn't say something about you personally. It says something about you qualitatively, that is, about believers, or about receivers, or about submitters, or about disciples.

And what's it say about chosenness? It says, "not of human will or work, but of God, Who shows mercy." (Rom 9:16)

I do not bring these things up to anger them, though it might do it, but to get them to think clearly. I think you will agree, this is simple stuff.

I bring these things up which directly contradict their assertions to get them to think clearly. I think all will agree, the prior post is flatly contradictory to known, clear statements of Calvinism.

 

[heymikey80]

The biggest issue I have with Calvin the objective in all this. I see man’s objective: To Love God with all his heart, soul, mind, and energy and Love others. The problem is with the Godly type Love being a free will choice of the agent chosen over likely perceived alternatives (the pleasure of sin for a season). This “Love” is huge and comes from God who wants to give it to everyone and is offering it to every mature adult human. God can not give this Love instinctively to humans for that type Love would not be a Godly type Love that a human now has, but a programmed robotic type Love. Because Godly type Love is an undeserving “gift”, humans must humbly accept the gift as it was given (an undeserving gift). If humans refuse to accept the gift as a gift (try to earn it, pay it back or feel they deserve in some way), then the “transaction” is not completed (it is a two way transaction) the Love is not transferred. This can be seen in the Parable of the “un-accepting” Servant Matt. 18: 21-35 where the servant is asking for an extension on the loan.

So -- does God have this love by nature? That's what John says: "God is Love." You'd have to conclude that God is a robot of Love on this kind of reasoning.

I don't think God is a robot. I don't think forgiveness is "God's job" either.

The problem is not whether the person still has feelings about repayment or false motivations about trying to be worthy of the Gift. In point of fact Paul actually calls people to account, to seek to live up to the greatness of the Gift they have received. So it can't be this logic that prevails.

I've a counterproposal. It's that when a person denies the Gift as a gift, that's where the real problem comes in. A gift really should be received as a gift, with gratefulness. We have to get to the point where we recognize our natural wish for self-justification and reward for work does not work in this case.

The rules have changed.

The idea that natural love is only robotic is also something of a problem here. Being naturally attracted to certain other people, that does not stop the love we have for them. We were created originally to love God above all. To exercise that original intent is no vice on its own. And yet it's exclusive, created, and programmed into how we're made.

The sole objective of humanity is the glory and entire enjoyment of God in righteousness. That entirety must include the will.

As I've pointed out dozens of times now, voluntary will ("free will") or free agency (human responsibility for actions and desires) are generally not what people here may indicate Calvinism objects to. Because it doesn't. Calvin himself cites it and does not object here. No Calvinist I've ever read objects here.

 

[nobdysfool]

Apparently, the Calvinists have hit a nerve with regard to the anti-Calvinists, seeing that there has been an escalation of personal attacks against the Calvinists. And vile personal attacks via private messages, too. I will not dignify any of them by direct quote or response, but know this, anti-Calvinists: posts and private messages which insult, vilify, disparage the person (as opposed to the doctrine or subject at hand), and pronounce judgment or declare someone's salvation to be false, are against the rules of this forum, and will be reported.

I personally am fed up and tired beyond measure at being vilified simply because I identify myself as a Calvinist. I have been personally attacked both privately and publicly, had my salvation called into question, been told I am a fool, a liar, a hypocrite, and a heretic, simply because I defend the Doctrines of Grace. Simply because I believe the principles commonly called the TULIP. Others have had their intelligence questioned, been told that they cannot reason above grade school level, that they are stupid, imbeciles, devils, and all manner of insult, vilification, and abusive accusations, simply because they call themselves Calvinists, and defend Calvinist doctrine.

Somehow it escapes these false accusers' notice that such tactics are condemned in the Word of God, and are certainly not evidence of the Fruits of the Spirit. But, evidently they believe that when it comes to Calvinists, it's OK to sin in trying to silence and defeat them. The tactics and methods being used against Calvinists in this forum are nothing short of grievous sins. And it logically follows that Truth is not, and cannot be, upheld and prevail by means of sinful tactics of hatred against anyone, let alone Calvinists. Calling it what it is, the tactics being used against the Calvinists in this forum are hateful, hate-filled, sinful, and condemned by the Word of God.

 

[JDS]

Simply because I believe the principles commonly called the TULIP. Others have had their intelligence questioned, been told that they cannot reason above grade school level,

I speak for myself here but my attacks are not against you personally. I do not even know you. However, you hold to views that cannot be supported by the scriptures IN CONTEXT and you present them as truth. I will continue to challenge Calvinists to prove their assertions while attempting to correct them with the truth.

You said you were sick and tired of the debate. May I suggest you take a break?

Let me correct a misrepresentation. I did not question the intelligence of the reformed. I said this;

"The darkness is so very great over them that it reduces men with very high IQ's to reasoning on a grade school level or below."

This is not a questioning of their intelligence but their wisdom.

Here is a verse for you that will help you in a debate:

Ps 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

And here is an admonition if you do get offended.

Jer 12:5A If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses?