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The Truth About Hell

ittarter

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How about 1 Timothy 1:17. Is God the 'everlasting' king? Or are we redefining eternal in the verse as well?
Yes. Everywhere. We're not redefining anything that hasn't already been redefined by the bulk of New Testament scholarship. You will note that no modern translations use 'everlasting' anymore. They use 'eternal' because the latter word does not assume the meaning of endlessness.

If you would like to read more about the meaning of aionios let me know and I will track down some online reading material.

As I have said, aionios refers to a different quality, not a different quantity. By derivation, however, aionios could in specific cases or instances refer to something endless. However, that must be determined by context. aionios by itself is not proof that the noun it describes is definably endless.

You see, you have to undergo severe linguistic gymnastics to overcome what the Bible actually says, to make it say what you want it to say. Why not just read the Bible and believe what it says?
I'm not even talking about believing. We are just aiming at comprehension here. What you do with it once you understand it is out of my hands.

It is my observation that most people start with the believing, while understanding the Bible takes a distant second. In other words, people read into the Bible the theology they were taught at church, Sunday school, home, wherever. To support their interpretation they employ fallacious argumentation which, if they stopped to think for a second, is full of holes.

Your argument basically relies on the accuracy of a particular translation in employing a particular word to represent a particular Greek word, which is complicated by philosophical conceptions of time, the cosmos, and different realities or "worlds" therein. Conceptions which change over time. And we are removed from first and second century Hellenistic Judaism by two thousand years and however many thousand miles. It's not simple. Not in the slightest. Understanding the Bible rarely is.

If you want to see for yourself the quantitative side of 'eternal,' chew on John 17:3 for a while.

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
 
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Bear.Fr00t

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Strong's G166 (aiōnios)
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

You're right, I can't comprehend the Bible if the words don't actually mean what the dictionary says they should mean. So I'm suppose to take some man's interpretation over the inspired word of God? Hardly.

You offered to provide some material on the real meaning of aiōnios. Please do I would like to research this further.

If you're open to it, I suggest this paper:
http://www.jewishnotgreek.com/ci.pdf

Which Biblically supports annihilation. See what you think.
 
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Husky7

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could the ones that say Hell is not a physical place please explain these:


Matthew 13:42
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
KJV
There is no figurative speech used in this verse. This is a literal event. The Lake of Fire is real, and it will cover the entire earth. All the wicked will die in this "lake of fire" after they are found not to be in the book of life. There is wailing and gnashing of teeth, because these people know they will cease to exist, and that they will be destroyed for eternity. It's a frightening thought for them to know they will cease to exist.


Luke 13:27-28
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
KJV
Again, this verse is talking about the judgment of the wicked described in Revelation 20. The wicked literally see the righteous in heaven, and they know they will not be able to inherit this awesome place. This is why Satan is able to deceive them into trying to take the heavenly city:for the tree of immortality. Again, there is weeping and gnashing of teeth because they finally realize that they will cease to exist, and that they will miss out on being with God forever.
 
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ittarter

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Strong's G166 (aiōnios)
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

You're right, I can't comprehend the Bible if the words don't actually mean what the dictionary says they should mean. So I'm suppose to take some man's interpretation over the inspired word of God? Hardly.
It appears from what you said that you equate Strong's with divine inspiration. Strong's sucks. We've made a lot of progress in the past 120 years in the area of linguistics and study of the biblical languages.

You offered to provide some material on the real meaning of aiōnios. Please do I would like to research this further.

Well, the best way to do it is to do it yourself. Buy a Bible analysis program (mine is BibleWorks) and search all occurrences of aionios and its derivatives (e.g. aionion) in the NT. Look at how they're used. Several examples, such as the one I already gave you (also see Rom. 16:25; Philemon 15), suggest that the sense of endless time is not the primary denotation of the word. (And as I already said, I think there is a strong case to see endless duration as a secondary denotation, i.e., it means that in some but not most, much less all, cases.)

Unfortunately ten minutes of Google-searching yields very little of value on this topic. I found an interesting blog that might provide some food for thought but its claims are not substantiated. Other sites I found typically feature anti-universalist rhetoric and are far too deep in highly charged arguments to see the issues clearly.

If you're open to it, I suggest this paper:
http://www.jewishnotgreek.com/ci.pdf

Which Biblically supports annihilation. See what you think.
I already believe the New Testament in generally annihilationist, but some exceptional passages exist. Thanks for sharing.

I'm confused. If you are an annihilationist then you cannot simultaneously claim that aionios refers to endless duration. The two positions are mutually exclusive. If you're annihilationist, are you just looking to make sense of apparently contradictory passages in the Bible? or do you not see the contradiction between the two positions?
 
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Bear.Fr00t

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It appears from what you said that you equate Strong's with divine inspiration. Strong's sucks. We've made a lot of progress in the past 120 years in the area of linguistics and study of the biblical languages.

You have certainly set yourself up in a fail-proof position. Not only are the English translations of the Bible unreliable, now Strongs is unreliable too. It is impossible for anyone to present an argument against your position since the resources from which any disagreement may originate is simply wrong. Well done! Perhaps you know of a translation and/or concordance which supports your redefinition of various words?

I'm confused. If you are an annihilationist then you cannot simultaneously claim that aionios refers to endless duration. The two positions are mutually exclusive. If you're annihilationist, are you just looking to make sense of apparently contradictory passages in the Bible? or do you not see the contradiction between the two positions?

Sorry, you completely lost me. What contradiction between what two positions?
 
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ittarter

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You have certainly set yourself up in a fail-proof position. Not only are the English translations of the Bible unreliable, now Strongs is unreliable too. It is impossible for anyone to present an argument against your position since the resources from which any disagreement may originate is simply wrong. Well done! Perhaps you know of a translation and/or concordance which supports your redefinition of various words?
For best results, take your own advice and read the Bible yourself. Earlier I pointed out a handful of relevant texts to get you started, seemingly to no avail. Otherwise, ponder the change from 'everlasting' to 'eternal' in most modern translations, as I have already mentioned.

Oh, and stop being a dick. This is not about Who Is Right and Who Is Wrong.

Sorry, you completely lost me. What contradiction between what two positions?
I'm quite sure it doesn't matter. Enjoy your weekend.
 
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n2thelight

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We only have two choices.......Life or Death...All will die or either be changed,so Im not talking about the psysical,rather the Soul...

For those of you who believe in eternal suffering here is a excelent study for you....

Life and Death: The Two Polar Opposites

The apostle Paul summed up the whole matter of people’s reward for sin when he wrote:

ROMANS 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternallife through Christ Jesus our Lord.

Could anything be clearer than this text? The wages for sin is shown to be death, and eternal life is stated to be a gift from God, not something people already have. This is consistently expressed from Genesis to Revelation, notice:

MATTHEW 7:13-14

“Enter through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad the road that leads to destruction and many enter through it, (14) but small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”

JOHN 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life

ROMANS 8:13
For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

GALATIONS 6:8
The one who sows to please the sinful nature from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the spirit, from the spirit will reap eternal life.

PROVERBS 11:19
The truly righteous man attains life, but he who pursues evil goes to his death.[2]

All these passages clearly describe the two separate destinies of the righteous and the unrighteous. The “righteous” are people who are in-right-standing with God because they’ve accepted his sacrifice for their sins, the “unrighteous” are those who are not in-right-standing with their Creator because they’ve rejected his offer of salvation.[3] The former will inherit eternal life, whereas the latter will reap the wages of sin and be destroyed.
Yet those who adhere to the eternal torture doctrine mysteriously don’t accept this blatantly clear biblical truth. They don’t believe that the two polar opposites are life and death; they believe the two polar opposites are eternal life in heavenly bliss and eternal life in burning torment. Sounds ridiculous, doesn’t it? They may not phrase it in such an open manner, but this is what they actually believe when it comes down to it.

Eternal Life and Immortality – Only Available through the Gospel

The offer to receive eternal life as opposed to suffering everlasting destruction is what the gospel of Christ is all about. We see this plainly expressed in this passage:

2TIMOTHY 1:10

But (God’s grace) has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

Notice that life and immortality are only available through the gospel. What exactly is “the gospel?” The gospel literally means “good news.” Its main message is summed up in the famous passage John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” Note, once again, what is clearly being contrasted in these passages: In John 3:16 perish is contrasted with the gift of eternal life; in 2Timothy 1:10 death is contrasted with both immortality and life, which are said to be made available through the gospel. If the eternal torture doctrine were true, these verses would be contrasting eternal life and eternal life being tortured, or immortality and immortality in fiery torment. I realize this sounds absurd, but the bible would certainly speak in such honest, blatant terms if this teaching were true. Or do you think God would be misleading or ambiguous about such an important issue in his Holy Scriptures?
The reason the bible doesn’t speak in such a ludicrous way is simply because this doctrine of eternal conscious torment in not a biblical teaching. The above passage, 2Timothy 1:10, makes it plain that until Jesus was raised for our justification, the power of death was not destroyed and hence, immortality was not available to us – life was not available to us. This is because we are all sinners (see Romans 3:23 and Ecclesiastes 7:20) and therefore all deserve death, “for the wages of sin is death.” God cannot overlook this because he is perfectly just. One person cannot pay the penalty for another because both are sinful and deserve death. The only way we can escape this imminent death penalty is if a sinless person, who does not deserve death, dies in our place (Griesmeyer 8:1).
So what did God do? Because he so loved the world and didn’t want anyone to perish, he gave his Son as a sin sacrifice in order that we may have the gift of eternal life. The difference between wages and a gift is that wages are earned while a gift is free. Jesus paid the death penalty that we’ve all earned so that we can have the free gift of eternal life. The Lord did this so that we could fellowship with him forever instead of reaping the wages of sin, which is death.
This fact that God Himself wants to have a relationship with us explains why the gospel is also referred to as “the message of reconciliation” (see 2Corinthians 5:17-21). The gospel is good news indeed because, not only does it grant eternal life to those who accept it, but, more importantly, it enables us to have a relationship with the Creator of the universe!
Notice what John the Baptist declared would happen to those who reject the gospel:

JOHN 3:36

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”

The passage could not be plainer: those who reject the Son “will not see life.” God’s word is absolute, and this is an absolute statement: Those who reject Jesus Christ will not see any life at all. This includes even a sadistic life in conscious agony for all eternity. Such people will be justly-but-mercifully put to death, absolute death, for this is the wages of their actions. But our loving Creator doesn’t want anyone to perish like this; he has provided a way to eternal life through his Son, Jesus Christ.
Do you see the simple, beautiful, clear message of the gospel here? God is just trying to save his beloved fallen creation, humanity, from the wages of sin. Ezekiel 18:32 reveals the heart of God well on this matter: “ ‘For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone,’ declares the Sovereign LORD, ‘Repent and live!’ ”

Jesus Taught Everlasting Destruction

Didn’t Jesus preach that those who reject the gospel and refuse to repent will suffer never-ending torment in hell? Many ministers adamantly insist on this, but what did Jesus say as recorded in the bible itself? By all means, let’s examine what Jesus himself taught on the issue starting with a statement we’ve already looked at:

MATTHEW 7:13-14:
“ ‘Enter through the narrow gate. For wide and broad is the road that leads to destruction and many enter through it, but small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.’ ”

Seriously, how much clearer could Jesus possibly be here? Destruction is the fate that awaits the “many” that are thrown into the lake of fire, not perpetual undying torture in flames of torment. And please notice, again, that this is in contrast to life that will be granted to the “few.”
Jesus repeatedly made this very clear. For example, consider his simple statement, “Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish” (Luke 13:3,5 NASB). This mirrors Jesus’ statement in John 3:16 regarding the fact that those who believe in him “… shall not perish, but have eternal life.” “Perish” in both these texts is not referring to the death we all must face at the end of this present earthly life. No, Jesus is obviously referring here to a perishing that those who believe in him will not have to suffer – the second death, which takes place on the day of judgment when the damned are cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:11-15 verifies this; verses 14b and 15 of this passage state: “The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
In Matthew 10:28 Jesus solemnly declaredwhat would happen to people when they experience this “second death:”

MATTHEW 10:28

“Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One (God) who can destroy both soul and body in hell.[4]”

Notice that Jesus is telling us explicitly what God will do to unrepentant sinful people on the day of judgment: he will destroy both soul and body in the lake of fire, his chosen instrument of destruction.
Jesus is dealing specifically here with the subject of the second death and yet he says absolutely nothing about spending eternity in undying conscious torment. If this were true Jesus would tell us to “fear the One who is able to preserve the soul in hell.” But this is not what Jesus taught. He didn’t teach it because it is not a biblical doctrine. Religion may very well teach it, but the bible does not. God is going to unenthusiastically issue out the wages of sin and justly destroy the unrighteous, not sadistically torture them forever. Scripture clearly states:

JAMES 4:12

There is only one lawgiver and judge, the One (God) who is able to save and destroy.

You see, God is going to do one of two things with people: he’s either going to save them, that is, grant eternal life to those who respond favorably to his love and gracious gift of life, or he’s going to justly but mercifully destroy them. He may or may not necessarily be the one who personally executes this sentence, but he is certainly the One who authorizes it. In this sense, at least, it is indeed God Himself who destroys the ungodly.
This fact that God is either going to save or destroy people based upon their freewill decision to accept or reject the gospel is clearly illustrated in this passage from Hebrews:

HEBREWS 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.

Those who believe will be saved from the second death and granted eternal life, those who do not will be destroyed, both soul and body, in the lake of fire. It’s that simple. Why do religionists insist on making this simple truth so complicated and perverse?

I encourage you all to read this entire study which can be found at the below link.....

Dispelling the myth of eternal torment biblically
 
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Timothew

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You had me until I got to Gehenna.......
What? What do you mean?

N2thelight made a good case using all of the scriptures.
"you had me until I got to Gehenna"???
Have you been to the Valley of Gehenna outside of Jerusalem?

I guess I am not understanding your post.
 
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BrandonLParks

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Husky7 said:
Hell is not a physical place that people go to if they do not end up in heaven. The word “hell” is used 54 times in the Bible. It is translated from several different words with various meanings:
In the Old Testament:
31 times from the Hebrew “Sheol,” which means “the grave”
In the New Testament:
10 times from the Greek “Hades,” which means “the grave”
12 times from the Greek “Gehenna,” which means “a place of burning”
1 time from the Greek “Tartarus,” which means “a place of darkness”

“Tartarus” is used once, in 2 Peter 2:4, and means “a place of darkness or restraint.” “Tartarus” is where Satan and his demons reside now. It isn’t a place of punishment or flames.

“Gehenna” means a place of fire, brimstone, and punishment (see Matthew 5:29-30, described in Matthew 13:40-42 and 2 Peter 3:7.) Note these flames are still in the future at the end of the world.

“Hades” means “the grave” (Acts 2:31; 1 Corinthians 15:55; Revelation 20:14). The body of Jesus rested there and His saints are resting there now awaiting the resurrection.

-The concept of "hell" stems from paganism, and the Egyptian belief in an afterlife. Contrary to what some teach, fallen man is mortal, not immortal. God taught that we can achieve immortality ONLY through his son Jesus Christ. Only by believing that Christ died for your sins can you achieve the GIFT of immortality. Therefore, when God judges all the unrighteous dead at the end of time; they will not be consciously living in fire for eternity. All the unrighteous will instead be destroyed by "Hellfire" (which is literal spiritual fire from God). These people will cease to exist. There is no place of eternal suffering; God would never do that to his creations.

Husky,
This is a great post and analysis of the words used in scripture for "hell." The orthodox view of hell today is based on a mixture of Greek myth and the works of John Milton and Dante, not the Bible. As a matte of fact, many of our beliefs regarding the afterlife stem from Platonic philosophy rather than the Bible. I recount my ideas on hell at (whatjesusdiddo.blogspot.com/2011/03/rob-bell-love-wins-and-universalist.html)
but I will give a small snippet here. The idea of eternal punishment is self contradictory. Punishment is a corrective thing; it is done to correct a bad behavior. If a person is eternally punished, there is no chance for correction, and therefore eternal punishment is just cruel and serves no purpose. A loving God would therefore never put someone from his creation through that, regardless of how bad they might have been. If there is a location in the afterlife devoted to punishment, then, it must be corrective and not eternal. The passages in scripture where Jesus does make mention of a hell, never indicate it is eternal.
Blessings,
-Brandon
 
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DArceri

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This idea is basically atheistic. It gives people a good reason not to believe.
LOL...Do you really think God seeks man's opinion about eternal matters within His Divine Council. So what's your take on the verses that state that all unbelievers will be judged by Christ, and they will be punished according to the works they have done. The Bible clearly states that that unbelievers are storing up wrath against themselves (Romans 2:5) and that God will “give to each person according to what he has done” (Romans 2:6).
 
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BrandonLParks

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DArceri said:
LOL...Do you really think God seeks man's opinion about eternal matters within His Divine Council. So what's your take on the verses that state that all unbelievers will be judged by Christ, and they will be punished according to the works they have done. The Bible clearly states that that unbelievers are storing up wrath against

DArceri,
I know this question was meant for someone else, but I thought I would put in my two cents if that is alright. I don't know if you believe this punishment and wrath of God is eternal or not. My take is that for those who do not have a direct ticket to heaven, (either because they have not accepted Christ or do not have some sort of extenuating circumstance keeping them from knowing Christ) they will receive a corrective, non-eternal punishment for according to the measure of their sins. Think of it as a form of purgatory. As for those who absolutely do not want to spend eternity with God, they will simply cease to exist.
Blessings,
-Brandon
 
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DArceri

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DArceri,
I know this question was meant for someone else, but I thought I would put in my two cents if that is alright. I don't know if you believe this punishment and wrath of God is eternal or not. My take is that for those who do not have a direct ticket to heaven, (either because they have not accepted Christ or do not have some sort of extenuating circumstance keeping them from knowing Christ) they will receive a corrective, non-eternal punishment for according to the measure of their sins. Think of it as a form of purgatory. As for those who absolutely do not want to spend eternity with God, they will simply cease to exist.
Blessings,
-Brandon
(whatjesusdiddo.blogspot.com)
Hey Brandon...Unfortunatley, that is an easy way out for the atheists and deniers of Jesus Christ. Many hate the God of the bible so much that they would glady accept a corrective punishment if that is all that is at stake. Listen, God's Holiness is beyond our comprehension. He is infinitely Holy. To put this in perspective between finite and finite creatures, if I were to kill an ant, my punishment would be zilch. If I were to kill a dog, there may or may not be some repercussions. If I were to kill a vagrant, I would be put in jail for awhile, if I were to kill the President of the United States, I would be put in jail for life with no chance of parole. NOW, here we have and INFINTELY HOLY, AND RIGHTEOUS BEING that is being killed off by society. Do you really think a 'corrective punishment' is a just punishment when one is AT WAR WITH and sins against an infintely Holy Holy Holy God?
 
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BrandonLParks

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DArceri said:
Hey Brandon...Unfortunatley, that is an easy way out for the atheists and deniers of Jesus Christ. Many hate the God of the bible so much that they would glady accept a corrective punishment if that is all that is at stake. Listen, God's Holiness is beyond our comprehension. He is infinitely Holy. To put this in perspective between finite and finite creatures, if I were to kill an ant, my punishment would be zilch. If I were to kill a dog, there may or may not be some repercussions. If I were to kill a vagrant, I would be put in jail for awhile, if I were to kill the President of the United States, I would be put in jail for life with no chance of parole. NOW, here we have and INFINTELY HOLY, AND RIGHTEOUS BEING that is being killed off by society. Do you really think a 'corrective punishment' is a just punishment when one is AT WAR WITH and sins against an infintely Holy Holy Holy God?

I agree with your analogy of a graded punishment system. I too have a view of punishment as graded. I believe that those who accept Jesus but have no willingness to live a Christ centered life will go through a temporary punishment that is corrective. For those that blatantly reject God and want not to live eternity with him, they will simply cease to exist, hence eternal life vs. eternal death.
Blessings,
-Brandon


 
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Timothew

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It doesn't matter if so-and-so would gladly accept this or that punishment, or if God is greater so the sin is bigger. What matters about "The Truth About Hell" is what the bible has to say. The Bible says Straight Out "The wages of sin is death." Note that the bible Does Not Say "The wages of sin is to be burned alive for all eternity." The bible also does not say "the wages of sin is eternal separation from God. Sinning against God results in death. The only way to have eternal life is to have those sins forgiven. Jesus took the sins of the world upon Himself, and He died on the cross. Then He rose again, so the debt of death is paid for anyone who will accept His payment.
 
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