The Truth About Hell

[DArceri]

I agree with your analogy of a graded punishment system. I too have a view of punishment as graded. I believe that those who accept Jesus but have no willingness to live a Christ centered life will go through a temporary punishment that is corrective. For those that blatantly reject God and want not to live eternity with him, they will simply cease to exist, hence eternal life vs. eternal death.
Blessings,
-Brandon

What Jesus did Do

Hey Brandon, It 's an ontological (ie. 'essense/nature') graded punishment system. It's based on WHO you have sinned against, not just WHAT degree your sin is.

Before I end my thoughts on this matter, hear me out on this one last point. There are basically two ways to pay off the debt incurred by our sin, offer a payment/sacrifice that is infinite in value (thus the necessity of the sacrifice of Jesus) or undergo punishment. Since finite creatures have nothing of infinite value to offer God, they must undergo punishment. How long is this punisihment???? Well, we get an idea from what Jesus taught, the offender in this parable had to remain in 'prison' until he paid his debt off .... Check this out: Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, 'Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?' Jesus answered, 'I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times. Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. The servant fell on his knees before him. "Be patient with me," he begged, "and I will pay back everything." The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. "Pay back what you owe me!" he demanded. His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, "Be patient with me, and I will pay you back." But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened. Then the master called the servant in. "You wicked servant," he said, "I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?" In anger his master turned him over to the jailers. This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.'" Matthew 18:21-35. Notice that the person in the parable couldn't pay off the debt and he must remain in prison where he will be tortured until he does pays it off. Now since he cannot pay his debt how long do you think he will remain in prison? Indefinitely!

Read Psalm 49:7-9 and 14-15 where it says that no man can offer a payment to ransom a man so that he will not see death, but God can and does ransom a person. God Bless.



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[ittarter]

Darceri,

Your system hearkens back to a time when different people had different degrees of honor or "social values" and offending a king was worse than offending a child. However does not the Bible teach AGAINST such a class system? Jesus progressively railed against sexism, racism, ageism, and all other such prejudices. As far as Jesus is concerned, all of humanity is equal, and accordingly, lying to a child is just as serious as lying to a king. Cf. Luke 17:2 It would be better to be thrown into the sea with a millstone hung around your neck than to cause one of these little ones to fall into sin.

Alas, your reproduction of Anselm's argument for why God became man -- to provide the only possible way to restore God's "infinite" honor -- is BASED on this obsolete system of social class. Nor is this same system native to Christian thought -- far from it, in fact.

And that is why it will never be a persuasive line of argument in contemporary Western culture. There will be some who use it to rationalize a continuing belief in everlasting suffering and the necessity for an incarnate sacrifice, but it is merely a mask for the larger issues at stake -- the ones that truly define the questions of guilt and redemption.

 

[DArceri]

Darceri,

Your system hearkens back to a time when different people had different degrees of honor or "social values" and offending a king was worse than offending a child. However does not the Bible teach AGAINST such a class system? Jesus progressively railed against sexism, racism, ageism, and all other such prejudices. As far as Jesus is concerned, all of humanity is equal, and accordingly, lying to a child is just as serious as lying to a king. Cf. Luke 17:2 It would be better to be thrown into the sea with a millstone hung around your neck than to cause one of these little ones to fall into sin.

Alas, your reproduction of Anselm's argument for why God became man -- to provide the only possible way to restore God's "infinite" honor -- is BASED on this obsolete system of social class. Nor is this same system native to Christian thought -- far from it, in fact.

And that is why it will never be a persuasive line of argument in contemporary Western culture. There will be some who use it to rationalize a continuing belief in everlasting suffering and the necessity for an incarnate sacrifice, but it is merely a mask for the larger issues at stake -- the ones that truly define the questions of guilt and redemption.

I smell a red-herring..... The point I was trying to make is about a 'vertical relationship' (man vs. God), not an horizontal relationship (man vs man). BTW, since I am pro-life and hold to the right of life of a baby in the womb makes your accustations of me believing in some sort of ancient 'caste' system groundless. Its' interesting to note that most 'humanists' hold the mother of greater value over the baby in the womb, but they will play the 'equality' card in there arguments when it benefits them to do so. Basically, HUMANISTIC thought is SELF SERVING PRIDE....It is man reaching to be God himself. It is the NEW AGE Tower of BABEL. Those who put 'humanism' and progressive thought above God's Word are those who put the created above the Creator. .... It's funny how some who profess this way of thinking CLAIM to be Christians. UUUGGHH. Calling themselves Christian (ie. IN-CHRIST) and not believing IN CHRIST, SCREAMS guilt trip!!!!! Basically, they are creating God in their own image (re-creating Christianity) so as to fit Him into their own worldview. Clearly an attempt to live life as they see fit without guilt. But in trying to rid themselves of the Truth of the Bible and thus ridding themselves of this guilt, they still feel something is not well with their soul. That is why they will continue to try to re-create Christianity and try to kill off God and His Truth from society. It is their only way to stop the feeling of guilt. Unfortunately for them, God still exists AS Holy, Holy, Holy, and Christ's tomb is still empty, empty, empty, no matter how much they try to suppress the Truth.


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[BrandonLParks]

I smell a red-herring..... The point I was trying to make is about a 'vertical relationship' (man vs. God), not an horizontal relationship (man vs man). BTW, since I am pro-life and hold to the right of life of a baby in the womb makes your accustations of me believing in some sort of ancient 'caste' system groundless. Its' interesting to note that most 'humanists' hold the mother of greater value over the baby in the womb, but they will play the 'equality' card in there arguments when it benefits them to do so. Basically, HUMANISTIC thought is SELF SERVING PRIDE....It is man reaching to be God himself. It is the NEW AGE Tower of BABEL. Those who put 'humanism' and progressive thought above God's Word are those who put the created above the Creator. .... It's funny how some who profess this way of thinking CLAIM to be Christians. UUUGGHH. Calling themselves Christian (ie. IN-CHRIST) and not believing IN CHRIST, SCREAMS guilt trip!!!!! Basically, they are creating God in their own image (re-creating Christianity) so as to fit Him into their own worldview. Clearly an attempt to live life as they see fit without guilt. But in trying to rid themselves of the Truth of the Bible and thus ridding themselves of this guilt, they still feel something is not well with their soul. That is why they will continue to try to re-create Christianity and try to kill off God and His Truth from society. It is their only way to stop the feeling of guilt. Unfortunately for them, God still exists AS Holy, Holy, Holy, and Christ's tomb is still empty, empty, empty, no matter how much they try to suppress the Truth.

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Interesting, I always thought Jesus' death and resurrection (thus the empty tomb) took place to remove guilt, not validate it.
Blessings,
-Brandon

 

[ittarter]

I smell a red-herring..... The point I was trying to make is about a 'vertical relationship' (man vs. God), not an horizontal relationship (man vs man). .

I understand your point. However, it is groundless without an understanding of honor that is rooted in a class system. That was Anselm's basis for claiming that offending God resulted in an infinite demerit. Feel free to provide support for your view in another way; however, until you do, you have nowhere else to go.

 

[Non.Denom.Jesus-Freak]

Ok maybe I am just ignorant but I know that I am saved therefore I have eternal life....im really not worried about hell. All I know is that if your name is not written in the lambs book of life, then on judgement day you will be cast into the lake of fire. Thats enough for me.

 

[DArceri]

Interesting, I always thought Jesus' death and resurrection (thus the empty tomb) took place to remove guilt, not validate it.
Blessings,
-Brandon

What Jesus did Do

I wasn't directing my statement to you Brandon. I was making a statement to the postmodern 'humanist' who entered the conversation. He seems to have recreated God in His own image.

 

[DArceri]

I understand your point. However, it is groundless without an understanding of honor that is rooted in a class system. That was Anselm's basis for claiming that offending God resulted in an infinite demerit. Feel free to provide support for your view in another way; however, until you do, you have nowhere else to go.

Uuughhh....It was a parable my friend set in the times of slaves and servants. Jesus' parable's all point to a greater eternal TRUTH. ... Deal with the parable.

 

[ittarter]

Uuughhh....It was a parable my friend set in the times of slaves and servants. Jesus' parable's all point to a greater eternal TRUTH. ... Deal with the parable.

Look, no one's putting a gun to your head. Either calm down or go do something less frustrating than talking to me.

Regarding Jesus' parable. None of my previous comments related to it so they still stand. They relate to what I believe is the more substantial defense of your theory of atonement, namely, Anselm's argumentation in Cur Deus Homo.

However I now understand you believe the parable relates to your position. You said,

Notice that the person in the parable couldn't pay off the debt and he must remain in prison where he will be tortured until he does pays it off. Now since he cannot pay his debt how long do you think he will remain in prison? Indefinitely!

I don't see any mention of torture in the parable. The lord simply "turns [the servant] over to the jailers." The point of the parable falls on the way in which God will treat those who mistreat those around them. There is no elaboration about the nature (e.g. physical suffering, duration) of the punishment, only that they will suffer likewise, and ironically, too.

I believe a similar parable exists that ends, "I tell you this, he will not leave until he has paid his debt to the last penny!" or something to that effect. Could this be an argument for post-mortem redemption? Of course not. It is so easy to misread Jesus' parables. The point would be that the imprisoned person will pay his or her debt in full, not that any future release may be extrapolated. To avoid weird and wonderful theologies that belong to times and philosophies other than first century Palestine, greater caution is needed to guard the hermeneutic process.

If I am right, then the parable you cited in no way relates to endless torture or the need for divine atonement. Rather it relates to the way in which followers of Christ should treat each other -- and by extension, everyone else, too. Forgiveness, in a manner that indicates you belong to the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[DArceri]

....the imprisoned person will pay his or her debt in full, not that any future release may be extrapolated.

Actually, the amount of the debt he owed in today's standard I have been told is in the billions of dollars. IOW, it was an unpayble amount. Thus the point of the parable is that he will suffer imprisonment forever because he was shown forgiveness and mercy on a greater debt (ie. pointing to the cross), yet he did not forgive or have grace toward his fellow man on a much smaller trivial amount (called wicked in parable, ie. unsaved, corrupt heart).

If I am right, then the parable you cited in no way relates to endless torture or the need for divine atonement. Rather it relates to the way in which followers of Christ should treat each other -- and by extension, everyone else, too. Forgiveness, in a manner that indicates you belong to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Actually, if you sought the 'mind of Christ' instead of the 'mind of a 'philospher', you would see through God's eyes that forgiveness is evidence of one's salvation, ie. a changed heart. Those who have a regenerated heart have the fruit of the Spirit and grow toward Christ-likeness. The point of the parable is to show that an unforgiving heart is a diseased, corrupt heart and counter to that of someone born again in Christ. Just like works is a manifestation of our faith, so to is a forgiving heart... Thus the parable.... It was Jesus way of saying to us that those who do not forgive as Christ has forgiven us, are called WICKED at heart and are manifesting their true nature, ie. born of Satan.

In regards to eternal life or eternal torture, if one should be blessed and recieve a 'glorified body' at Christ's return, he is essentially made complete in sprit and body. He becomes what God intended him to be, truly human in every sense of the word. Currently, in our fallen state, we are corrupt by nature and are not how God intended us to be. In other words, we can say in some sense we are incomplete humans. Now that being said, if one is not born again (see Jn 3:3), then one's name is not going to be written in the Book of Life and one will remain corrupt and not 'truly human' in the full sense of the word, ie. as God originally created him to be before the fall... Note: Rev. 20:12-15 .."and if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.". What is the the Book of Life? God reveals to us He is recording every deed, every thought, every emotion of every human being from the day they are born. Unless one is cloaked in white garments, ie. Christ's righteous, all of one's sins are going to be judged by THE LAW OF GOD. Esentially, Satan has a claim to all those who are not bought by the blood of Christ, and Satan's greatest thrill is to bring everyone down with him into the Lake of Fire. This is known as the 2nd death, called the Lake of Fire. To verify this, go to Rev 14:9-11 and read "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name." IOW, those who are in-Christ, ie. born of God, are at rest forever and ever, and those who are not born of God, ie, those who worship the beast and whose name is not in the Book of Life on judgement day, will not rest forever and ever. Rev 14:12-13 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Blessed indeed," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!"

 

[Philothei]

Darceri,

Your system hearkens back to a time when different people had different degrees of honor or "social values" and offending a king was worse than offending a child. However does not the Bible teach AGAINST such a class system? Jesus progressively railed against sexism, racism, ageism, and all other such prejudices. As far as Jesus is concerned, all of humanity is equal, and accordingly, lying to a child is just as serious as lying to a king. Cf. Luke 17:2 It would be better to be thrown into the sea with a millstone hung around your neck than to cause one of these little ones to fall into sin.

Alas, your reproduction of Anselm's argument for why God became man -- to provide the only possible way to restore God's "infinite" honor -- is BASED on this obsolete system of social class. Nor is this same system native to Christian thought -- far from it, in fact.

And that is why it will never be a persuasive line of argument in contemporary Western culture. There will be some who use it to rationalize a continuing belief in everlasting suffering and the necessity for an incarnate sacrifice, but it is merely a mask for the larger issues at stake -- the ones that truly define the questions of guilt and redemption.

ARe we called to action by feeding the poor and visiting the impirsoned? how about clothing the naked? How about the commandments ? if we strip the gospel of all "evangelical" kyrigmatic value are we then doing God's will ? Bottom line Christianity is just a philosopical system void of any praxis and Christ's message a mental exercise of sorts.

 

[Philothei]

Uuughhh....It was a parable my friend set in the times of slaves and servants. Jesus' parable's all point to a greater eternal TRUTH. ... Deal with the parable.

It is ok for them it deems the Gospel a text that has no intrnsic value but a lieterary piece

Indeed the parables had all ethical value and the great commandment of love one another them is again lost... That is so interesting as Christ's own words indeed call us to act as Christians as Christ was so against inaction if one looks at the Pharasees who were all talk and no action...

 

[ittarter]

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

I'm outta here.

 

[Frumious]

I've sat on the fence of Annihilationism since the day I first believed. And I am perfectly fine in that. I have read other threads on this throughout the forums; however most are closed, so thought this would be a good place.

I don't believe that the presence of a lake of fire in the end times can be ignored; however interpretation of what happens there for the unsaved seems to waver greatly from one mature believer to another. As the Lake of Fire is part of the prophesy in the book of Revelation, I believe it would be unwise to add or take anything away from what the bible says (Revelation 22:18-19)

My view is that interpretation of unfulfilled prophesy is the core source of division in the church today, and is also the core reason why the majority Pharisees and Sadducees missed the messiah when he appeared. They chose to 'define' how God would reveal a Nazarene (as a member of a specific priest-hood), rather than allow God to reveal Himself. The same can be said for any prophesy that has yet to pass, we need to open our minds to every possibility so that we will not guide people incorrectly, nor miss the boat when it arrives.

Additionally, a foundation of my belief is found in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. So everything in the scriptures is of value.

So when considering this topic, we have some scriptures which the Annihilationists will struggle with reconciling to their view:

Matt 25:46 - "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Dan 12:2 - Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt

Acts 25:46 - that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. combined with 1 Corr 15:42 - So also is the resurrection of the dead It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
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And then there are a number of passages in scripture which indicate some type of permanent destruction which may pose a challenge in reconciling to the more common view of the lake of fire:

2 Thessalonians 1:9 - They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Matthew 10:28 - "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Ezekiel 18:4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine The soul who sins will die. (Note: indicates the 'soul' can die)

Psalm 37:38 But transgressors will be altogether destroyed; The posterity of the wicked will be cut off.

Phillipians 3:18-19 For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.
​

I think it's fair to say that the topic is interesting and worthy of discussion; however I do not believe that scripture states definitively what exactly will occur in the lake of fire from the perspective of the unsaved people who end up there. We know that it is unpleasant and un-desirable and that it will occur for some period of time.

So why do so many churches make this a part of their statement of faith? It's majoring in the minors. To me it is the equivalent of saying exactly what the food will taste like in the New Jerusalem and mandating that everyone agree.

 

[Timothew]

I strongly suspect that there will be many in Hell who don't believe in a literal Hell.

Why do you suspect that?

 

[Lillen]

Hell got departments and long hall ways and are namn with a number... The bible was written by prophets, kings, and apostles that most of them with the help of Jesus came back to life after dying. Romans "I was alive once without the law but when the commandment came sin revived and i died" - Paul. King David also walked through the valley of shadow of death, and in some passages it says that he was delivered from the snares of death and also the realm of the dead! (i think).

I believe that sheol is a real place, for real, looking the same way as the world of the living. You can type on computers there, talk in a cellular phone, and listen to music, or why not look at your favorite shows on the television. It is for real. Some groups famously calls this underground. Filled with drugs, horrible music, and violence. As Paul writes, "the carnal mind is enmity against God for it is not a subject to the law of God nor indeed can be"

Moreover it says if we have died with him we also believe we should live with him, knowing that Christ rose from the dead dies nomore, death do not longer have dominion over him for the death he died he died to sin once and for all but the life He lives he lives unto God!"

Moreover paul writes about apostleship - "We are killed all day long we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter." This is a quote from the psalms!

Moreover Paul makes it clear, a seed do not sprout unless it dies!

 

[Timothew]

Hell has always seemed to me to be a rather strange thing for God to have created. It seems to be a contradiction to me. How can anyone enjoy heaven when they know that other souls, maybe family members, parents and children and grandchildren, are suffering in hell? How does that work?

Eternal suffering in hell truly doesn't make sense, and it contradicts what the Bible clearly says.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Notice the bible does not say, "For the wages of sin is eternal torture."

Some Christians say that this is not scary enough, but the invitation is there, to come to Jesus Christ for eternal life.

Anyone can reject this gift. The result is, naturally enough, no eternal life, since whoever has the Son of God has life, and whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

 

[CGL1023]

Hell is not a physical place that people go to if they do not end up in heaven.

Hell is a holding area for individuals who did not rely on the shed blood of Christ for their salvation while they lived on earth.

-The concept of "hell" stems from paganism, and the Egyptian belief in an afterlife. Contrary to what some teach, fallen man is mortal, not immortal.

Man is created by God to be an eternal being, no matter if one's eventual outcome is heaven or hell. That includes you.

God taught that we can achieve immortality ONLY through his son Jesus Christ. Only by believing that Christ died for your sins can you achieve the GIFT of immortality. Therefore, when God judges all the unrighteous dead at the end of time; they will not be consciously living in fire for eternity.

This judgement (often called the great, white throne judgement) takes place not at the end of time but at the end of the millenium, a time something more than a 1000 years from now. Strictly speaking, we all are in eternity right now.

All the unrighteous will instead be destroyed by "Hellfire" (which is literal spiritual fire from God). These people will cease to exist. There is no place of eternal suffering; God would never do that to his creations.

There is no mention of ‘spiritual fire from God’ in Rev 19 and Rev 20. The only mention of ‘fire’ in Rev 19 and Rev 20 is the lake of fire.

There is eternal suffering or torment.

[FONT=&quot]God declares in the Bible what He is like and it doesn’t say anywhere in the Bible that, as you say, “… God would never do that to His creations.” It grieves Him to have to perform His punishments but God doesn’t lie and has declared this in His word.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

 

[Timothew]

Hell is a holding area for individuals who did not rely on the shed blood of Christ for their salvation while they lived on earth

Where is that written in the scriptures?

Man is created by God to be an eternal being, no matter if one's eventual outcome is heaven or hell. That includes you.

Where does the scripture say that?

This judgement (often called the great, white throne judgement) takes place not at the end of time but at the end of the millenium, a time something more than a 1000 years from now. Strictly speaking, we all are in eternity right now.

Jesus said "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. John 5:24-28

For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:40

The condemnation in John 5:28 is death. Paul wrote that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ.
Romans 6:23


So we know from scripture that Jesus will return on the last day to resurrect those who are in their graves. He will judge them. Those who are in Him, He will give eternal life. Those who have done evil (those who have rejected Christ) will rise to condemnation. This condemnation is death.

There is eternal suffering or torment.

Where does it say that in scripture?

 

[Timothew]

Revelation 20:15
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

The lake of fire is the second death.
Revelation 20:14



The second death is not eternal suffering or torment. It is death, the second time after the resurrection.