The Truth About Abortion

Brightmoon · Jan 27, 2020

Referring to a fetus as a type of parasite on the mother is an accurate description . Parasites get all their nutrients from another organisms body . That Also describes a fetus. Some women get extremely fatigued when pregnant. This is the reason why. Women’s bones and teeth also get weakened because the fetus is doing some damage . I’m not changing my mind on it’s a woman’s decision whether to continue a pregnancy or not. She’s the one who has to put up with the pregnancy problems not you or any one else.

SPF · Jan 27, 2020

Brightmoon said:
Referring to a fetus as a type of parasite on the mother is an accurate description . Parasites get all their nutrients from another organisms body . That Also describes a fetus. Some women get extremely fatigued when pregnant. This is the reason why. Women’s bones and teeth also get weakened because the fetus is doing some damage . I’m not changing my mind on it’s a woman’s decision whether to continue a pregnancy or not. She’s the one who has to put up with the pregnancy problems not you or any one else.

It’s just discouraging when you hear people who call themselves Christians argue that the intentional and purposeful killing of other humans is actually morally permissible because they’re inconvenient to them.

I get it when an atheist supports abortion, they don’t have a framework to point towards objective moral value in humans. But as Christians, we have no excuse.

As Christians, we know that Humans are a unique creation and that we alone among God’s creation are created in His Image.

As Christians we know that our purpose is to love a life that glorifies God in all we do.

We know that the entrance of sin into the world is what has caused all the problems, defects, pain, and difficulty.

But we know as Christians that this world is temporary and that Christ will return and set all things right.

There’s no excuse for a Christians to think that bodily inconvenience is an acceptable reason to kill God’s creation.

redleghunter · Jan 27, 2020

Brightmoon said:
I’m talking about simply not wanting to undergo the health issues or problems of a pregnancy and not wanting to be pregnant because of that or not being able to afford a child

You mean someone changing their mind after becoming pregnant?

redleghunter · Jan 27, 2020

RaymondG said:
Hating a neighbor because of differing thoughts on abortion, is not a good start on becoming Like Him.....

Would not the choice of abortion be not in keeping with loving neighbor? Can’t think of a more clear example.

redleghunter · Jan 27, 2020

Tropical Wilds said:
No. I think that statistic is made up for the purpose of this discussion. I don’t think there is such a thing as “abortion for convenience.” I don’t believe I have the authority to judge others spiritually or morally because I am a Christian and, therefore, I believe that only God has that privilege and I have faith in God’s plan and ability to be God without me taking his duties.

It’s a valid statistic.

Reasons given for having abortions in the United States

If you want to get to the summary of the study just click on Summary/Conclusion in table of contents.

Convenience may not be the word used by the study but they do call it elective abortions. Meaning pregnant woman healthy, child in womb healthy. Under elective, which by the research summary puts this category as 98.3% of all abortions.

Under this category the summary listing includes:

Elective abortions reason given:

--too young/immature/not ready for responsibility
--economic
--to avoid adjusting life
--mother single or in poor relationship
--enough children already
--sex selection
--selective reduction

On the not being God issue...Are we not the hands and feet of Jesus as Christians? We will be judged on that. I am reminded of the parable of the minas. Also Christ preaching on living the “little ones” or “least of these.”

Is not a growing human being in the womb vulnerable? Needing our care and compassion? Aren’t they the “least of their brethren?”

We cannot ignore this. And we will be judged according to this.

HARK! · Jan 27, 2020

Robert6671 said:
Now I am going to tell other Christians here a simple fact, god does not acknowlege an unborn child as a human being in the bible. Gods says it, if you cause a woman to lose her child you have to pay her a fine for the loss, if you kill a human being god says you are to be put to death. So Christians I am sorry according to the bible its not murder.

Intentional killing, or murder, of the born: Verdict Death Penalty

Deuteronomy 19:11-12 But if out of hate someone lies in wait, assaults and kills a neighbor, and then flees to one of these cities, the killer shall be sent for by the town elders, be brought back from the city, and be handed over to the avenger of blood to die.

Unintentional killing of the born: Verdict Banishment

Deuteronomy 19:1-10 ESV
“When the Lord your God cuts off the nations whose land the Lord your God is giving you, and you dispossess them and dwell in their cities and in their houses, you shall set apart three cities for yourselves in the land that the Lord your God is giving you to possess. You shall measure the distances and divide into three parts the area of the land that the Lord your God gives you as a possession, so that any manslayer can flee to them. “This is the provision for the manslayer, who by fleeing there may save his life. If anyone kills his neighbor unintentionally without having hated him in the past— as when someone goes into the forest with his neighbor to cut wood, and his hand swings the axe to cut down a tree, and the head slips from the handle and strikes his neighbor so that he dies—he may flee to one of these cities and live

Unintentional killing of the unborn: Verdict Death Penalty

Exodus 21:22-25 ESV
“When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe

It seems that YHWH sets a higher price on the unborn, than on the born.

(CLV) Lk 1:41
And it occurred, as Elizabeth hears the salutation of Mary, the babe jumps in her womb, and Elizabeth is filled with holy spirit,

Tropical Wilds · Jan 27, 2020

redleghunter said:
It’s a valid statistic.

Reasons given for having abortions in the United States

If you want to get to the summary of the study just click on Summary/Conclusion in table of contents.

Convenience may not be the word used by the study but they do call it elective abortions. Meaning pregnant woman healthy, child in womb healthy. Under elective, which by the research summary puts this category as 98.3% of all abortions.

Under this category the summary listing includes:

Elective abortions reason given:

--too young/immature/not ready for responsibility
--economic
--to avoid adjusting life
--mother single or in poor relationship
--enough children already
--sex selection
--selective reduction

On the not being God issue...Are we not the hands and feet of Jesus as Christians? We will be judged on that. I am reminded of the parable of the minas. Also Christ preaching on living the “little ones” or “least of these.”

Is not a growing human being in the womb vulnerable? Needing our care and compassion? Aren’t they the “least of their brethren?”

We cannot ignore this. And we will be judged according to this.

I checked out the site. While I found the Star Trek fanfic and information index to be very informative (especially considering my renewed respect for the series), I am not particularly moved by his op-ed pieces (like the one you shared). He is of course welcome to his beliefs and I hope he conducts his choices in line with those beliefs, but I don’t really gravitate to manifesto-like private sources and so obviously my beliefs aren’t too swayed.

redleghunter · Jan 28, 2020

Tropical Wilds said:
I checked out the site. While I found the Star Trek fanfic and information index to be very informative (especially considering my renewed respect for the series), I am not particularly moved by his op-ed pieces (like the one you shared).

Don’t know what site you went to but there is no Star Trek fan stuff there. Maybe check your filters and fire wall?

Tropical Wilds said:
He is of course welcome to his beliefs and I hope he conducts his choices in line with those beliefs, but I don’t really gravitate to manifesto-like private sources and so obviously my beliefs aren’t too swayed.

There are no “beliefs” introduced but hard cold statistics.

Tropical Wilds · Jan 28, 2020

redleghunter said:
Don’t know what site you went to but there is no Star Trek fan stuff there. Maybe check your filters and fire wall?

You sent me to an article on http://www.johnstonsarchive.net, which, as you can see, is a manifesto editorial website which includes a vast Star Trek section. See here: Johnston's Archive--Star Trek.

So it’s not a issue with my firewall. It’s an issue of you not knowing your sources.

There are no “beliefs” introduced but hard cold statistics.

I think you need to familiarize yourself with the site a wee bit. It is a manifesto site, not a researched site by an established authority, nor is it peer reviewed study with verifiable information. It is a guy with the time, materials, and interest to maintain an editorial manifesto/Star Trek fan site.

coffee4u · Jan 28, 2020

Tropical Wilds said:
You sent me to an article on http://www.johnstonsarchive.net, which, as you can see, is a manifesto editorial website which includes a vast Star Trek section. See here: Johnston's Archive--Star Trek.

So it’s not a issue with my firewall. It’s an issue of you not knowing your sources.

I think you need to familiarize yourself with the site a wee bit. It is a manifesto site, not a researched site by an established authority, nor is it peer reviewed study with verifiable information. It is a guy with the time, materials, and interest to maintain an editorial manifesto/Star Trek fan site.

It's a private archive site by physicist Dr. Wm. Robert Johnston. Not a Star Trek or an abortion site per say, but they are included along with other archived material that are of interest to him.

Tropical Wilds · Jan 28, 2020

coffee4u said:
It's a private archive site by physicist Dr. Wm. Robert Johnston. Not a Star Trek or an abortion site per say, but they are included along with other archived material that are of interest to him.

Not archived... He is still updating it with “Various editorials, letters to editors, and other opinion pieces.”_5

RaymondG · Jan 28, 2020

redleghunter said:
Would not the choice of abortion be not in keeping with loving neighbor? Can’t think of a more clear example.

Do you find it also relevant to believe that you should not covet the unborn child's wife? How about this:

"29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
30 And Jesus answering said,"

...Do you believe the answer had anything with unborn children?

You see.....This topic is about unborn children.....not people who have been given the chance to live, after breathing the air and spending time outside the womb.

I'll tell you what isnt Loving thy neighbor:.............questioning the validity of their religion, because of a difference of opinion.....

SPF said:
It’s just discouraging when you hear people who call themselves Christians argue that the intentional and purposeful killing of other humans is actually morally permissible because they’re inconvenient to them.

I believe the unborn deserve the respect of their own word, so to not be confused with those who had the opportunity to live and make choices for themselves? Why is this hard so do?

Why cant we have a conversation about the unborn, without bringing in terms that apply to people with choices? Why liken the action committed on the unborn to the action committed on one who dies in a robbery? Yes they both can be considered tragic.....But why combine them when we are talking about the unborn only? Why not use abortion for now....and reserve killing and murder for more broader cases? especially if you believe abortion IS killing.... For there is no reason to add the extra ingredients into the mix, if you really believe they are already there.....

SPF · Jan 28, 2020

RaymondG said:
Why cant we have a conversation about the unborn, without bringing in terms that apply to people with choices? Why liken the action committed on the unborn to the action committed on one who dies in a robbery? Yes they both can be considered tragic.....But why combine them when we are talking about the unborn only? Why not use abortion for now....and reserve killing and murder for more broader cases? especially if you believe abortion IS killing.... For there is no reason to add the extra ingredients into the mix, if you really believe they are already there.....

Why keep repeating the same question over and over, expecting a different answer?

There are many ways and many circumstances in which a human being can be killed. They can be killed in a natural disaster, they can be killed in an accident, they can be killed in war, they can be killed deliberately, they can be killed by an animal, and they can even be killed while still in the womb.

When specifically looking at elective abortions, which represent over 98% of them, we can accurately describe them as the intentional and purposeful killing of the unborn, morally valuable human.

RaymondG · Jan 28, 2020

SPF said:
Why keep repeating the same question over and over, expecting a different answer?

Because this is what insane people do....

SPF said:
There are many ways and many circumstances in which a human being can be killed. They can be killed in a natural disaster, they can be killed in an accident, they can be killed in war, they can be killed deliberately, they can be killed by an animal, and they can even be killed while still in the womb.

When specifically looking at elective abortions, which represent over 98% of them, we can accurately describe them as the intentional and purposeful killing of the unborn, morally valuable human.

May I ask why? If abortion is killing......and there are many other ways to kill.....why not use Abortion to narrow it down to the killing on the unborn child?

What do you have to gain by lumping these unborn children with a larger group of people who are killed, both young and old, both innocent and guilty? What is wrong with leaving them in their own group: THose who are aborted?

What is there to gain by saying terminating a pregnancy is the same as one gang member killing another? And how do you feel this helps the plight of the unborn.... the innocent who never experiences choice?

I guess I just dont understand the motive behind doing such a thing. How is this respectful to their cause?

SPF · Jan 28, 2020

RaymondG said:
May I ask why? If abortion is killing......and there are many other ways to kill.....why not use Abortion to narrow it down to the killing on the unborn child?

I do, I use both terms.

RaymondG said:
What do you have to gain by lumping these unborn children with a larger group of people who are killed, both young and old, both innocent and guilty? What is wrong with leaving them in their own group: THose who are aborted?

It's important for the very reason that you don't want to use it. People don't like acknowledging that abortion is the intentional and purposeful killing of the unborn because it brings to the surface the startling reality and tragedy of what's happening.

By only using the term abortion, and never acknowledging what abortion is - the killing of the unborn, it helps to soften ones emotional response to the tragedy and reality of what is actually taking place.

But you already know this, which is why you don't like people acknowledging what abortion is - the intentional and purposeful killing of the unborn.

RaymondG said:
I guess I just dont understand the motive behind doing such a thing. How is this respectful to their cause?

It's the most respectful thing "to their cause". By acknowledging in the open what abortion is - the intentional purposeful killing of the unborn, we bring into the light the reality of what's happening to God's most innocent and dependent of creations.

It helps to highlight the immorality of the action.

coffee4u · Jan 28, 2020

RaymondG said:
Because this is what insane people do....

May I ask why? If abortion is killing......and there are many other ways to kill.....why not use Abortion to narrow it down to the killing on the unborn child?

What do you have to gain by lumping these unborn children with a larger group of people who are killed, both young and old, both innocent and guilty? What is wrong with leaving them in their own group: THose who are aborted?

What is there to gain by saying terminating a pregnancy is the same as one gang member killing another? And how do you feel this helps the plight of the unborn.... the innocent who never experiences choice?

I guess I just dont understand the motive behind doing such a thing. How is this respectful to their cause?

Think about it this way, when you hear the words 'murder, killing, tearing limb from limb' what is your reaction?
Then think on the words 'abortion, termination of pregnancy, induced miscarriage'
What is your reaction?

Words have power and the words most often associated with killing the unborn are designed to soften what is really happening. It makes it sound more acceptable and not so horrific.
From an abortion site
Surgical Abortion - Awake under local anaesthetic | BPAS
A hand-held suction device or suction machine gently empties your uterus.

vs stark reality
*warning graphic*
A suction tube (27 times stronger than a home vacuum cleaner) is inserted into the womb. The powerful suction tears the baby apart limb from limb and sucks it from the womb along with the placenta. The baby's remains are deposited into an attached waste bottle.

The motivation of the abortion clinic is to minimise reality so people feel better about what they are doing. Our motivation is to show reality.

God doesn't make a distinction between the living outside of the womb or the living inside of the womb.
Jeremiah 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

redleghunter · Jan 28, 2020

Tropical Wilds said:
You sent me to an article on http://www.johnstonsarchive.net, which, as you can see, is a manifesto editorial website which includes a vast Star Trek section. See here: Johnston's Archive--Star Trek.

So it’s not a issue with my firewall. It’s an issue of you not knowing your sources.

I think you need to familiarize yourself with the site a wee bit. It is a manifesto site, not a researched site by an established authority, nor is it peer reviewed study with verifiable information. It is a guy with the time, materials, and interest to maintain an editorial manifesto/Star Trek fan site.

Did not send you to any such a site. You should check what’s going on with your device and pop ups.

redleghunter · Jan 28, 2020

Tropical Wilds said:
I think you need to familiarize yourself with the site a wee bit. It is a manifesto site, not a researched site by an established authority

Ok you dismiss actual state and federal government data presented. That is what he presented, actual data. So you dismiss without providing rebuttal. Got it.

redleghunter · Jan 28, 2020

RaymondG said:
...Do you believe the answer had anything with unborn children?

Yes because everyone is our neighbor. That is the point Jesus made. Yes

SkyWriting · Jan 29, 2020

Josheb said:
Not only is that factually incorrect, but the ad hominem is duly noted and the ignored as fallacious. When you have a rational argument I'll consider it but until then everything you've posted is fallacious and you should look at how and why you're so fallaciously invested in a position you cannot rationally defend.

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The Truth About Abortion

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