The true doctrine of "FREE WILL"??: Biblical examples??

SkyWriting said:

It is impossible for people to reconcile how man experiences time linearly
with God not experiencing time at all. I appreciate your examples
illustrating the dilemma posed.

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Your welcome. I used to believe in time travel like in novels and movies, but when I thought about in light of Scripture, it just did not make any sense. But most of the time, the world's way of thinking is different than God's ways.

Jason0047 said:

Your welcome. I used to believe in time travel like in novels and movies, but when I thought about in light of Scripture, it just did not make any sense. But most of the time, the world's way of thinking is different than God's ways.

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I solved that time travel problem. With the earth and solar system moving so fast through space, any seconds of time travel forward or back would leave you floating in space. So people cannot travel in time any longer than they can breath in space. And the only thing to see in those few seconds is the earth moving away from you quickly.

SkyWriting said:

I solved that time travel problem. With the earth and solar system moving so fast through space, any seconds of time travel forward or back would leave you floating in space. So people cannot travel in time any longer than they can breath in space. And the only thing to see in those few seconds is the earth moving away from you quickly.

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Haha...well in less of course if you're God. I've had thoughts on this but I've always struggled to share them simply for the reason God always maintains a simple message...Jesus talked about shepherds, sheepfolds and planting seeds ...if things come from God it'll come with simplicity. But about your time travel and things moving away....about a year ago I was watching on older version of the movie, "The Time Machine". They were talking about the space about the same space that would be there in the past but then I thought, hold on now.....If man was able to go back in time he better not just be able to do that but also get the coordinates right...where the Earth would be relative to the sun in it's orbit at the exact time and second. Same conclusion you came to I guess....you might find yourself floating in space.

Jason0047 said:

Your welcome. I used to believe in time travel like in novels and movies, but when I thought about in light of Scripture, it just did not make any sense. But most of the time, the world's way of thinking is different than God's ways.

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What exactly wouldn't make sense? I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

Bobber said:

What exactly wouldn't make sense? I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

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Not much else I can think of besides the points I made in post #19. God could not technically rest on the 7th day if He existed in all points in time (like the creation week where He was still repeating the process of creating everything over and over and over and over again). Jesus was sacrificed one time for us (according to the Scriptures). Surely Jesus is not continuing to keep dying in some past timeline somewhere. It doesn't make any sense. I don't believe God is a slave to time (repeating things over and over in different points of all time). The Lord told us that He does not want us to pray in vain repetition. So I do not see God mindlessly repeating past events so as to fulfill a person's thinking on the fictional concept of time travel.

Ron Gurley said:

Time travel is OFF POINT! Start another thread!

Why would God a spirit want mortal Man to travel at E=Mc2?

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In order to time travel & see things, e.g. Jesus' entire life, the lives of Moses, Abraham, Paul, Origen, ClementofA, the Archangels Gabriel & Michael, other universes (if any), etc?

Neogaia777 said:

It's so much easier just letting God's will take over though...

God Bless!

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There us only God's will : Eph 1(11) , Rom 13(1)

rocknanchor said:

“Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, ,”
(Romans 3:27)

Either death and condemnation or the “all things are lawful for me” joy flowing from a life in the Spirit.
(Romans 8:2)

Since we have no merit whatsoever, the law of “faith” for “free will” life is either trusted or it isn’t.

That goes for trusting Him to lead us along soundly, to work out our salvation in the fear and love of God as well.

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Phil 2(13): For it is God that works in you both to will and do of his good will

Good job Ron. Refreshing to see so many that recognize the 'truth' as it is offered in the Bible.

It is not 'faith' alone, it is not 'works' alone. But to be a follower takes 'faith/works'. They cannot be separated in 'truth'.

The Bible tells us CLEARLY that 'all' or 'every man' will be judged according to HIS WORKS. That which we sow so shall we reap. The New Testament, Christ's words themselves TELL us what we MUST DO in order to be 'saved'. And 'faith and faith alone' is not what He says.

Faith is but the BEGINNING of the ability to FOLLOW.

And the 'all things are lawful' Paul offered was pertaining a specific GROUP of 'laws'. It does not pertain to ALL law. No true follow has been granted 'freedom TO sin'. We have been offered freedom FROM sin.

We who would profess to be followers are bound to the 'law of LOVE' now. There is not a library large enough on this planet that could contain all the law of LOVE. It is practically endless. What we MUST DO, what we MUST NOT DO in order to live 'in love'. Most of it most of us will never even understand.

But we certainly possess 'free will'. If not, we could never be righteously judged according to what we are responsible for. Which makes one wonder how ANYONE could believe otherwise. It is not just what the Bible says, it is or should be 'common sense'. And anyone that KNOWS God should KNOW this is 'truth'.

Blessings,

MEC

Ron Gurley said:

The true doctrine of "FREE WILL"??: Biblical examples??

"Free will" and SALVATION by GRACE through spirit-led FAITH/BELIEF (John 3+Eph.2)

Man's spiritual "Free Will"
...VERSUS...
the spiritual perfect WILL of the TRI-UNE GOD

In Genesis, Man had the "free will" to OBEY...remain in Eden...spiritually walk and talk with his UNSEEN God.
...VERSUS...
do his own thing...follow his selfish and natural tendancy to turn from God...DISOBEY

In the gospels / NT:

1."free will" BEFORE "salvation"...

The spirit of Man can ACCEPT or REJECT the DRAWING/CALLING of God.
...the offer of the gift of undeserved spiritual Grace/Love/Mercy
through spirit-led Faith/Belief.

2. "free will" AFTER "salvation"...

a. guided into spiritual "good works"
...VERSUS...
following the 1. world (chaos) and 2. the old "ways of the flesh" (sin nature) and 3. the temptations/attacks of spirit beings: devil/demons.

b. Be filled with / controlled by / pray and worship / walk in THE SPIRIT
...VERSUS...
grieve / quench / do not follow THE SPIRIT's guidance and comfort.

God gives Man the opportunities to CHOOSE...allowing the spiritual freedom to choose...free to follow the will of God...or not.

The following concepts are difficult to understand and perhaps logically contradictory....BOTH EXIST!...

A. The Sovreignty of an all-everything perfect God, a SPIRIT!
...VERSUS...
B. the spiritual exercise of the "free will" of Man (and angels!) inside God's will

ACCEPT...RECEIVE...BELIEVE...etc...OR...NOT!

John 1: 12-13 (NASB)...Will of Man VS the Will of God ~= "free will"
But as many as RECEIVED Him,(spiritually born again from above)
to them He gave the right to become children of God,
even to those who BELIEVE in His name,
who were BORN,
not of blood
nor of the will of the flesh
nor of the will of man,
but (spiritually BORN) of (the Will of) God.

John 3: 11-12 ...Accept Jesus' "testimony"..OR...NOT~= "free will"
11 Truly, truly, I say to you,
we speak of what we know
and testify of what we have seen,
and you do not ACCEPT our testimony.
12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe,
how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

John 8 : 31-38 (NASB)...Jesus: FOLLOW...OR...NOT ~= "free will"
...“If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”...( to follow the will of God)

1 Thessalonians 2:13 ...Accept God's "word"...or...NOT ~= "free will"
For this reason we also constantly thank God
that when you received the "word of God" which you heard from us,
you ACCEPTED it not as the word of men, but for what it really is,
the "word of God", which also performs its work in you who BELIEVE.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But a "natural man" (unsaved) does not ACCEPT the things of the Spirit of God,
for they are foolishness to him;
and he cannot understand them,
because they are spiritually appraised.(discerned)

Hebrews 10: 31;35-36(NASB)...Jesus the Christ ...or... Judgment? ~= "free will"
It is a terrifying thing (for unbelievers) to fall into the hands of the living God....
Therefore, do not throw away your confidence (in a believer's salvation),
which has a great reward.For you have need of endurance,
so that when you have done the WILL of GOD,
you may receive what was promised. (joy!)...John 15!

1 John 2: 15-17(NASB)...John: Do Not Love the World...Love God ~= "free will"
Do not love the world nor the things in the world.
If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
For all that is in the world,
the lust of the flesh and
the lust of the eyes and
the boastful pride of life,
is not from the Father, but is from the world.
The world is passing away, and also its lusts;
but the one who does the WILL of GOD lives forever.

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You should start with an empirical definition something people like me can not argue, or other people can change when it suits them.

For example your first few examples of 'free will' are not. they are choices. if Adam had true free will there would be no consequences. Rather it was the will of God to give Adam an opportunity to obey him or disobey him. with disobedience came a list of punishments for the will of God not Adam. Adam's will to choose was deferred to God mandate to punish, therefore God will takes precedence. God's will to give adam a choice not the ability to choose for himself but a choice with consequences.

By choosing would adam have chosen all those punishments? not according to scripture. it was their will to be smart like God. that was their biggest aspiration. to be like the one they loved. They did not choose everything else that happened. that was God's will not theirs. therefore Adam and Eve slaves to God were given a singular choice and that was to remain in the Garden with Him forever or die that very day. Adam risked it all because he saw eve and she looked well after eating the fruit, doubted God and sought to have what God had. that was his only doing here. he never willed everything else that happened, hence his choice was not 'free' it came with God's consequences because the lord 'willed' adam a choice with consequence .

Again in my thread i pointed out slaves were given to choose many things for themselves, does that make them any less of a slave?

That is the key here as free will is not the opposite of predestination. free will is in contrast to slavery. Jesus Himself says we are slaves to Him or are slaves to sin. hence no free will as we will live life in the ways of sin or through the grace of Christ.

Example we can not will ourselves to be sin free. If we have true free will then why do we need jesus to die on the cross? if we can truly decide whether to sin or not we should not need the ultimate sin sacrifice. This idea of 'free will' slaps Christ and the Father in the face per jesus in Mat8 and all throughout the NT You have been bought with the blood, my yoke is easy my burden is light, timothy, paul, jude, peter all start letters at some point calling themselves slaves of Christ.

Why do we resist this? because slave has become a bad word. in reality slave was a worker a servant looking in some cases to buy his way into the family. That is the picture we have been given. yet we resist this for a greek construct of free will that to this point in history has not been invented yet.

and that should be the final word on the matter for anyone looking for the truth. Free will is not a biblical concept because it was not invented till 600 years after christ, and was not refined to the point you know it til the mid 1500. because in 600 the greeks were using this idea of free will to dispel the notion of an all loving God. what we know of free will in the church is a holdover from medieval catholicism. I don't understand the need to hold on to this doctrine considering it's orgins unless you are apart of that organisation. meaning they got so much wrong back then why would we assume this was right? especially when the bible says the very opposite?

If you still hold out for free will then will you buy indulgences? I have them for sale. it is basically a peice of paper that allows you to literally buy certain amount of time out of purgatory.. meaning if you had not committed any mortal sin one of the 7 really bad ones you were probably going to spend so time stuck between heaven and hell in purgatory (think the ABC series Lost) until your time was up or you redeemed yourself. well, medieval priests were commissioned by the sitting pope to sell indulgences to buy time out of purgatory for a loved one then it got so 'popular' say you wanted to cheat on your wife.. rather than go through confession and all of that you bought a weekend pass... From the same minds that brought you the doctrine of free will also brings you 'indulgences,' I figure if your buying this free will crap maybe you will also buy an indulgence for 1000 buck a pop. I promise these indulgences will square you with God as well as the originals! don't worry this all goes to the shon'off foundation.. "mama always said you only need so much money to live, the rest is for shon'off!"

drich0150 said:

That is the key here as free will is not the opposite of predestination. free will is in contrast to slavery. Jesus Himself says we are slaves to Him or are slaves to sin. hence no free will as we will live life in

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I don't think anyone is saying that there are no restrictions at all on our will. However, if you still sin after salvation, then are you really a slave with no freewill? Hardly. You still have very real choices. Even as a slave to sin, not every choice will be sinful, so one still has limited freedom. Of course the big question is whether one is free to accept or reject salvation to begin with or if that is all predetermined for him. If it is all pre-determined then why are we told we can choose who to serve?

drich0150 said:

if Adam had true free will there would be no consequences. Rather it was the will of God to give Adam an opportunity to obey him or disobey him. with disobedience came a list of punishments for the will of God not Adam. Adam's will to choose was deferred to God mandate to punish, therefore God will takes precedence. God's will to give adam a choice not the ability to choose for himself but a choice with consequences.

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So what? It's still free will any way you want to slice it.

Bobber said:

So what? It's still free will any way you want to slice it.

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Not according to Christ. According to Christ we are slave bound to sin. Slave with the option to be redeemed. a single choice does not make our will free our will is always subject to that of our master either Sin or God. Where do you see freedom if we can not stop sinning or if we are limited in what we do by God's will?

Loren T. said:

I don't think anyone is saying that there are no restrictions at all on our will. However, if you still sin after salvation, then are you really a slave with no freewill? Hardly. You still have very real choices. Even as a slave to sin, not every choice will be sinful, so one still has limited freedom. Of course the big question is whether one is free to accept or reject salvation to begin with or if that is all predetermined for him. If it is all pre-determined then why are we told we can choose who to serve?

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why is it always all of one or all of another.. meaning slave to sin= permission to sin??
Have none of you read Romans? the whole book is about stepping through the process of salvation and how to deal with sin. In romans 7 specifically Paul says he is a slave to sin and can not help himself but to sin in some cases but when he does it is not him who sins... but the sin living in him. he himself hates sin but his body is a slave to it and can not help but sin most of the time. His answer is to split the sinful man from the God loving spirit who hates sin.

That is the key!
Rom 7
7 You might think I am saying that sin and the law are the same. That is not true. But the law was the only way I could learn what sin means. I would never have known it is wrong to want something that is not mine. But the law said, “You must not want what belongs to someone else.”8 And sin found a way to use that command and make me want all kinds of things that weren’t mine. So sin came to me because of the command. But without the law, sin has no power. 9 Before I knew the law, I was alive. But when I heard the law’s command, sin began to live,10 and I died spiritually. The command was meant to bring life, but for me it brought death. 11 Sin found a way to fool me by using the command to make me die.

12 Now the law is holy, and the command is holy and right and good.13 Does this mean that something that is good brought death to me? No, it was sin that used the good command to bring me death. This shows how terrible sin really is. It can use a good command to produce a result that shows sin at its very worst.

The War Inside Us
14 We know that the law is spiritual, but I am not. I am so human. Sin rules me as if I were its slave. 15 I don’t understand why I act the way I do. I don’t do the good I want to do, and I do the evil I hate. 16 And if I don’t want to do what I do, that means I agree that the law is good.17 But I am not really the one doing the evil. It is sin living in me that does it. 18 Yes, I know that nothing good lives in me—I mean nothing good lives in the part of me that is not spiritual. I want to do what is good, but I don’t do it. 19 I don’t do the good that I want to do. I do the evil that I don’t want to do. 20 So if I do what I don’t want to do, then I am not really the one doing it. It is the sin living in me that does it.

21 So I have learned this rule: When I want to do good, evil is there with me. 22 In my mind I am happy with God’s law. 23 But I see another law working in my body. That law makes war against the law that my mind accepts. That other law working in my body is the law of sin, and that law makes me its prisoner. 24 What a miserable person I am! Who will save me from this body that brings me death? 25 I thank God for his salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So in my mind I am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful self I am a slave to the law of sin.

If paul saw himself a slave to sin and in some cases could not help but do the evil he hated, then truly who are you to tell he can do better? if our will was free do you not think Paul given what he just said in the above post would continue on sinning?

This passage in romans 7 is the key or the reason why we must not pretend to have free will. 1) it is just another place where that doctrine contradicts the bible and two it negates almost all the teachings in the book of romans. In doing so the doctrine of free will binds us in legalism meaning we must choose to follow God's law. but if what Paul said is true we can't as all are slaves to sin. This being the case if we tell ourselves we always have a true clear choice then at some point we will come to a cross roads. on one side if we are honest we can not deny the sin we keep committing yet our doctrine says we have final say, which means we are broken/not among the saved because this doctrine of legalism has us being judged under the oldway/law. Or we can lie to ourselves or minimalize what sin we are wrapped up in and can not help, which is a far greater sin of hypocrisy.

If we see ourselves as slaves... 1/2 of us belongs to sin while our souls we give to God, and as paul says if we do sin it is not us/soul it is our spirit/body that will sin until the day we die. once we die then and only then can we be free of the bonds of sin (just like in marriage which was the first part of romans 7. which is why the resurrection is so important. once we are revived then our will/our choice to live sin free can be actualized. but not till then.

Paul is working through a process of explaining what our reaction should be to the sin we find still present in us. But that is not us at all, but the sin nature still at work. I think you stopped too soon:
"12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live."

Sure sounds like a choice to me. It's impossible to read through scripture and deny that we make free choices. The choices are not: Either sin or me powering through and being victorious. The choice is living by the flesh or living by the spirit. Yes, we will still sin at times and it will be because we are not listening when the Spirit speaks, not because we are obligated to sin.