The Trinity

ViaCrucis

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If you quote John 1:1 to prove your 'eternal logos' comment, I disagree. ;)

Before going any further, why do you disagree? If the Logos was in the beginning with God and is Himself God, then on what basis can you say the Logos is not eternal?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Before going any further, why do you disagree? If the Logos was in the beginning with God and is Himself God, then on what basis can you say the Logos is not eternal?

-CryptoLutheran
Amen . He is exactly like the Father as to His eternal existence.
 
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Hillsage

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Many deny Jesus was Resurrected and Ascended into heaven bodily( a human body with real flesh and bones) and are still dead in their sins even though they might claim to be a christian. That is an oxymoron.
:oldthumbsup:

There is one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. (1Timothy 2:5) post ascension.

Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.(Hebrews 13:5) Changeless, Immutable. Jesus was a man when He walked this earth, when He Ascended and when He will return again at His 2nd Coming.
:oldthumbsup:

2 Corinthians 5:1-10
5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.
Question, what translation is this? I don't find "Holy Spirit" in the first 6 translations I've checked. They all say "the Spirit" or "of the Spirit". I prefer 'of the Spirit' because the Greek word tou
there is possessive aspect in the definition of this word. It is defined as something being "of this person"....IOW 'from this person'. And the ' 'guarantee', 'seal', or 'earnest' in this case, is the holy spirit of "Christ in us the hope of glory" in the hereafter....that's why it is the salvation we 'hope' for, because our saved spirit doesn't have that body yet.


Look up the meaning of the word soma below, it always means a physical body in relation to anthropos(man).
I've studied this in the past. And it also means the many membered BODY of CHRIST eg the church;

COL 1:18 He is the head of the body/soma, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent.
 
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Hillsage

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The prefix crypto means secret or hidden. Before becoming officially Lutheran I had already largely begun identifying myself as Lutheran because it was solid, biblical theology. Something I hadn't really experienced before in the kinds of Christianity I had been raised with. I had been raised up in a mix of Pentecostal, non-denominational Evangelical, and Baptist traditions through churches, schools, family, and friends. So I was, before officially coming out as Lutheran, a "crypto" Lutheran, a hidden or secret Lutheran. I was worried about being ostricized, as that had been a consistent theme in my life. This was still the case when I first joined Christian Forums back in 2010 where I decided to give myself the name CryptoLutheran on here. Some months or maybe a year later I lost access to the email I had associated with that account on here, and had no means of getting it back--and I also had forgotten my password to my CryptoLutheran account on here. So I decided to make a new account, this one, but I continued to sign my posts off with my old name so to make sure nobody thought I was trying to create a sock puppet account.

I've been signing my posts off for so long like that now that it's just habit. And people still call me variously as Crypto and Via.

I'm a former Evangelical turned secret Lutheran to an out of the closet Lutheran.

-CryptoLutheran
Great testimony, it will be fun to tell pastor your story.

Long ago I started teaching that we can all learn something from every denomination. I was bred, born, raised, married, divorced at 19 as a Roman Catholic. I was then told, as a divorcee, that I could never take communion or get married again unless my first wife died. Sounded/felt like some kind of 'unforgiveable sin', though I'd never heard that term before. That's when I flipped God the finger and said in my heart; "If I'm going to hell then 'by God' I was going to be worthy and have a front row seat along with the rest of my buddies." 4 years later, at age 23, I got radically saved bought a paper back NT but never went to 'a church' for 6 months.

The night my spirit got born again/saved, I was selling drugs, drawing unemployment and working one night a week in a bar for cash, so I wouldn't loose my unemployment check. I never had any friends who weren't drug customers or hippies. I never had to 'get rid' of any "bad company ruins good morals" friends....they all dropped me. I was left with Jesus (and his holy Spirit in me). Blessed is the man that realizes how 'little' he needs to be happy. :) That paper back 'Good News for Modern Man' translation NT I bought, looked pretty thick, since I had never even cracked a OT/NT bible before. So I decided I'd just read 'the last chapter' and see how things turn out. :swoon: Scared the HELL into me, reading 'the book of Revelation'. 6 months later I went with my new girlfriend, to her Lutheran church :oldthumbsup: where we spent the next for 2 years. That's when I soured on the 'organized church'. Then it was Charismatic home churches for 17 years in 3 cities. Then God called us back into 'structured setting' where we spent 23 in a quasi Charismatic church. Then, 4 more in a home church at our house. Then 3 years in a small (50+) Baptist church. :eek: Hey, I can get along with anyone in my 'holy spirit of Christ' led flesh'....believe it or not. We were still tongue praying and full charismatic believing in that Baptist church which had 2 pastors in that 3 year time. Both of which I told; I prayed in tongues in their service and they already knew that raised my hands in worship....along with 2 others. They didn't care, if I prayed in tongues..."as long as no one could hear me." ^_^ ^_^ Then God called us back to the quasi Charismatic church we went to for 23 years, and that's where we are now. When I told our Baptist pastor we were leaving, he actually shocked me by asking if he had done anything wrong to make us go. I told him "No! You were totally gracious, God is calling us back to Cornerstone" We are still friends to this day.
 
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Hillsage

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Before going any further, why do you disagree? If the Logos was in the beginning with God and is Himself God, then on what basis can you say the Logos is not eternal?

-CryptoLutheran
OK Crypto, back to "iron sharpening iron" but only if 'the angle of our attitudes' are held to a degree that promotes sharpening and not sparks flying. ;)

As to your question; I've been saying, when the eternal spirit Word gave up being a 'divine spirit' to becoming a 'mortal temporal flesh' body that had to die....there was no eternal life in 'the LOGOS/WORD that became flesh' that DIED and was DEAD for 3 days. Jesus surrendered his spirit to the Father from that cross which made that body breath its last and die. Scripture says that "the body without the spirit is DEAD." On the cross He never said "Father, into thy hands I commit OUR Spirit or YOUR Spirit!", or "the Holy Spirit". He committed "my spirit"....the spirit of Christ in Him. And it was 'that spirit' which raised His dead body to life again 3 days later, after it went to the Father, then to prison "to preach to the spirits that formerly did not obey...in the day's of Noah. 1 Pet 3:19

OK, I think I'm pretty much done. This is way too much posting for me. I'm not going to be living here, in cyber church. But if 'you' still have more to say, I'm willing to keep playing with 'one' of God's kids. And Rick yielded to you in his post. That still works for me.
 
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RickReads

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OK Crypto, back to "iron sharpening iron" but only if 'the angle of our attitudes' are held to a degree that promotes sharpening and not sparks flying. ;)

As to your question; I've been saying, when the eternal spirit Word gave up being a 'divine spirit' to becoming a 'mortal temporal flesh' body that had to die....there was no eternal life in 'the LOGOS/WORD that became flesh' that DIED and was DEAD for 3 days. Jesus surrendered his spirit to the Father from that cross which made that body breath its last and die. Scripture says that "the body without the spirit is DEAD." On the cross He never said "Father, into thy hands I commit OUR Spirit or YOUR Spirit!", or "the Holy Spirit". He committed "my spirit"....the spirit of Christ in Him. And it was 'that spirit' which raised His dead body to life again 3 days later, after it went to the Father, then to prison "to preach to the spirits that formerly did not obey...in the day's of Noah. 1 Pet 3:19

OK, I think I'm pretty much done. This is way too much posting for me. I'm not going to be living here, in cyber church. But if 'you' still have more to say, I'm willing to keep playing with 'one' of God's kids. And Rick yielded to you in his post. That still works for me.

Cryptos a better match for you. You'd be on my last nerve by now. I'll say a word about the Spirit of Christ though. Jesus' inner man resides in the risen Christ.

The Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit sent in Jesus' name by the Father. Jesus reigns. John 14:26, Matthew 18:20

When Jesus delivers up the Kingdom the Holy Spirit resumes the identity of the Father 1 Corinthians 15:24
 
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GodLovesCats

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I use One in Three Persons when it is understood, but in agreement with Barth, it does sound like we are saying three personalities (with individual self-consciousnesses), and so I try to avoid using that terminology often. One divine substance with three subsisting, with their particular personal properties (begot, beget, proceed) and works in creation/redemption (incarnation, indwelling, etc). They are the same ontologically, but differ economically. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not Spirit, the Spirit is not the Father; but they are all the same divine being in the unity of essence.

Is it OK to call the Lord a "3-in-1 God" to go along with St. Patrick's shamrock lesson?
 
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Jonaitis

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Is it OK to call the Lord a "3-in-1 God" to go along with St. Patrick's shamrock lesson?

Some are critical of the anology, but I find it useful. The three share the same source of being and existence.
 
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GodLovesCats

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I'm curious. Can you clarify St. Patrick's shamrock lesson?

Barring a genetic defect all clovers (aka shamrocks) have three separate leaves. They do not touch each other, but are held in place on the same stem. St. Patrick's botanical lessons is why a special day was given to him after he died.
 
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RickReads

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Barring a genetic defect, all clovers/shamrocks have three separate leaves. They do not touch each other, but are held in place on the same stem.

So long as you identify that you are making an analogy it's okay.
 
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Valletta

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Great testimony, it will be fun to tell pastor your story.

Long ago I started teaching that we can all learn something from every denomination. I was bred, born, raised, married, divorced at 19 as a Roman Catholic. I was then told, as a divorcee, that I could never take communion or get married again unless my first wife died. Sounded/felt like some kind of 'unforgiveable sin', though I'd never heard that term before.
It's too bad you were told that misinformation, divorce does not stop a Catholic from receiving communion. A Catholic who wants to date or remarry and who is civilly divorced is supposed to first get annulment, a lot of annulments are given because the individuals were not mature enough to understand/realize what marriage is supposed to be.
 
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Hillsage

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It's too bad you were told that misinformation, divorce does not stop a Catholic from receiving communion. A Catholic who wants to date or remarry and who is civilly divorced is supposed to first get annulment, a lot of annulments are given because the individuals were not mature enough to understand/realize what marriage is supposed to be.
How old are you? The RC church has made a lot of reforms since I was born in 1949, maybe that "misinformation" was true then, in 1968. I've shared this testimony with a million (sic) Catholics over the last 50 years, and this is the first time anyone has ever said it wasn't true. :scratch: And, maybe the priest lied just to try to get me to stick it out as part of the "for better or worse" vow.

I actually did go through the annulment process 10+ years later. Not for myself, but for my X wife who wanted to marry another Catholic. She actually wasn't one when she got pregnant and we "had" to get married. We had to go through a counseling period with the monsignor in order to get married. During the time of that process and with a lot of advice from friends who really new me, I realized this wasn't a love relationship, it was a lust relationship. She got pregnant the first time I'd ever had sex (not the first for her). But I kept trusting that this 'man of God' would actually hear God and tell us that he needed to refuse us from getting married. At our last pre-marital meeting with the monsignor my heart just sank when he announced "Well this is our last session, we'll see you at the church." I was so 'taken' I actually told Sherry to go on out to the car because I wanted to ask him one more thing. When she left, I poured out my heart and told him this was not good, I wasn't ready ect. ect. We were standing at the door when I did this. He literally pushed me out the door and said "We'll see you...'whatever day'....our marriage was scheduled for. Honestly, the annulment process was a joke IMO. I was interviewed by a young priest and asked some pretty lame questions I thought. But I did enjoy witnessing to him, and giving him a testimony of how I wasn't even saved until 4 years after we were divorced, so as far as I was concerned that marriage had no biblical grounds for some annulment process you paid $300 for ($1,000 now) so some Cardinal/whoever reading about it could say this marriage wasn't approved by God...or whatever/whoever it was supposed to appease.

It all worked for the better though. I was raised believing I was saved because I jumped through all the "rituals" of 'The Church' (infant baptism, confession, confirmation, catechism, mass ect ect). Part of my testimony is I was literally born with a drug problem. MY mom 'drug' me/us to church every Sunday no matter if you were sick or whatever. The only problem is, 'religious RITUAL' without a spiritual REALITY saves nobody. And being raised 'in the church' no more makes you 'a Christian, than being raised in a garage, makes you a car. And that "bad misinformation" you mentioned did lead me to believe I wasn't saved (which was true) and headed to hell. So believe me, those next 4 years included so much evil, that for the first 10 years after being saved, I told people I'd still be in prison if I'd have got caught for half of what I did.

I do appreciate your heart on this though Valletta. :hug:
 
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Valletta

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How old are you? The RC church has made a lot of reforms since I was born in 1949, maybe that "misinformation" was true then, in 1968. I've shared this testimony with a million (sic) Catholics over the last 50 years, and this is the first time anyone has ever said it wasn't true. :scratch: And, maybe the priest lied just to try to get me to stick it out as part of the "for better or worse" vow.

I actually did go through the annulment process 10+ years later. Not for myself, but for my X wife who wanted to marry another Catholic. She actually wasn't one when she got pregnant and we "had" to get married. We had to go through a counseling period with the monsignor in order to get married. During the time of that process and with a lot of advice from friends who really new me, I realized this wasn't a love relationship, it was a lust relationship. She got pregnant the first time I'd ever had sex (not the first for her). But I kept trusting that this 'man of God' would actually hear God and tell us that he needed to refuse us from getting married. At our last pre-marital meeting with the monsignor my heart just sank when he announced "Well this is our last session, we'll see you at the church." I was so 'taken' I actually told Sherry to go on out to the car because I wanted to ask him one more thing. When she left, I poured out my heart and told him this was not good, I wasn't ready ect. ect. We were standing at the door when I did this. He literally pushed me out the door and said "We'll see you...'whatever day'....our marriage was scheduled for. Honestly, the annulment process was a joke IMO. I was interviewed by a young priest and asked some pretty lame questions I thought. But I did enjoy witnessing to him, and giving him a testimony of how I wasn't even saved until 4 years after we were divorced, so as far as I was concerned that marriage had no biblical grounds for some annulment process you paid $300 for ($1,000 now) so some Cardinal/whoever reading about it could say this marriage wasn't approved by God...or whatever/whoever it was supposed to appease.

It all worked for the better though. I was raised believing I was saved because I jumped through all the "rituals" of 'The Church' (infant baptism, confession, confirmation, catechism, mass ect ect). Part of my testimony is I was literally born with a drug problem. MY mom 'drug' me/us to church every Sunday no matter if you were sick or whatever. The only problem is, 'religious RITUAL' without a spiritual REALITY saves nobody. And being raised 'in the church' no more makes you 'a Christian, than being raised in a garage, makes you a car. And that "bad misinformation" you mentioned did lead me to believe I wasn't saved (which was true) and headed to hell. So believe me, those next 4 years included so much evil, that for the first 10 years after being saved, I told people I'd still be in prison if I'd have got caught for half of what I did.

I do appreciate your heart on this though Valletta. :hug:
Priests are hardly perfect and not all are well informed on every subject. There's a good article at the link, but to cut to the chase it states: "For some reason, in years past it was taught erroneously by certain pastors that a divorced Catholic could not receive Holy Communion. This has never been the case."
Ask Father Leo: Can a divorced Catholic receive Communion? - The North Star Catholic
I think most people applying for an annulment are rather surprised that instead of looking at whether it was a good or bad marriage they look at the disposition of spouses at the time they were married. As to being saved, we are saved through Baptism and we continue to be saved, so many Catholics also have wonderful conversion stories.
 
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ViaCrucis

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OK Crypto, back to "iron sharpening iron" but only if 'the angle of our attitudes' are held to a degree that promotes sharpening and not sparks flying. ;)

As to your question; I've been saying, when the eternal spirit Word gave up being a 'divine spirit' to becoming a 'mortal temporal flesh' body that had to die....there was no eternal life in 'the LOGOS/WORD that became flesh' that DIED and was DEAD for 3 days.

Where are you getting this idea that the Logos ever stopped being Divine? He didn't give up His Divinity when He became human. Colossians 2:9 says "In Him was the fullness of Deity in bodily form". And Philippians 2:6 says "though He was by nature God did not count equality with God something to be exploited".

The Logos never stopped being fully and completely and entirely God. He never ceased to be the Divine Logos, uncreated and eternal.

Yes, there was--and is--eternal life in the Incarnate Logos, John 5:21-29, John 6:54-69, John 11:25-26, John 10:18,

Jesus surrendered his spirit to the Father from that cross which made that body breath its last and die. Scripture says that "the body without the spirit is DEAD." On the cross He never said "Father, into thy hands I commit OUR Spirit or YOUR Spirit!", or "the Holy Spirit". He committed "my spirit"....the spirit of Christ in Him.

Yes, His human soul. Which is also why we read "He gave up the ghost" meaning His human soul. The Eternal Logos became flesh, dwelt among us, that means He was fully human. Jesus was fully and completely human, including His having a human soul just like us. So, when He died, He commits Himself--His soul, His life, His mortal life to the Father and then breathed His last, dying as a mortal man.

And it was 'that spirit' which raised His dead body to life again 3 days later, after it went to the Father, then to prison "to preach to the spirits that formerly did not obey...in the day's of Noah. 1 Pet 3:19

All three Persons are credited with the resurrection of Jesus. The Father raised Him up, He raised Himself up, and the Holy Spirit raised Him up. The Father raised Christ from the dead (Galatians 1:1), Jesus raised Himself from the dead (John 10:18), and the Holy Spirit raised Him from the dead (Romans 8:11). The Spirit that raised Christ from the dead is the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Holy Trinity; and He is both the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of the Son, which is why the Spirit of God's Son in us is why we can cry out "Abba! Father!". The Spirit of the Son is Himself a Person, the Holy Spirit. Who is Himself God (Acts of the Apostles 5:3-4) even as the Father is God, and the Son/Logos is Himself God.

OK, I think I'm pretty much done. This is way too much posting for me. I'm not going to be living here, in cyber church. But if 'you' still have more to say, I'm willing to keep playing with 'one' of God's kids. And Rick yielded to you in his post. That still works for me.

I still don't know how you argue against the Eternity of the Logos, you haven't provided an argument against the historic interpretation of John 1:1 yet. You, of course, don't have to continue posting if you don't want. But this is a discussion board and you have thus far voluntarily chosen to engage the topic of the Trinity.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Barring a genetic defect all clovers (aka shamrocks) have three separate leaves. They do not touch each other, but are held in place on the same stem. St. Patrick's botanical lessons is why a special day was given to him after he died.

There are legends surrounding St. Patrick, for example that he drove all the snakes out of Ireland (not true, Ireland has historically been snake-less, but has nothing to do with Patrick). I don't know if it is historically true that Patrick ever used a shamrock as an analogy for the Trinity. The reason Patrick has a feast day is because of his life of faithful commitment to Christ as one of His saints. The shamrock can be used symbolically, but shouldn't be taken further than that. Taken too far it looks like partialism or the false idea that each Person makes up 1/3 of God. Each Person is Himself fully God, not part. The Father is God, all of God, and the Son likewise is all of God with the Father, and the Spirit likewise is all of God with the Father and the Son. Each is fully God in Himself and with one another and in one another. For the Godhead of the Father, the Godhead of the Son, and the Godhead of the Holy Spirit is One. One God.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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RickReads

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There are legends surrounding St. Patrick, for example that he drove all the snakes out of Ireland (not true, Ireland has historically been snake-less, but has nothing to do with Patrick). I don't know if it is historically true that Patrick ever used a shamrock as an analogy for the Trinity. The reason Patrick has a feast day is because of his life of faithful commitment to Christ as one of His saints. The shamrock can be used symbolically, but shouldn't be taken further than that. Taken too far it looks like partialism or the false idea that each Person makes up 1/3 of God. Each Person is Himself fully God, not part. The Father is God, all of God, and the Son likewise is all of God with the Father, and the Spirit likewise is all of God with the Father and the Son. Each is fully God in Himself and with one another and in one another. For the Godhead of the Father, the Godhead of the Son, and the Godhead of the Holy Spirit is One. One God.

-CryptoLutheran

What was term you used for salvation as a provision available to anyone? I should have written it down even though it will chap me to take notes on your theology.
 
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ViaCrucis

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What was term you used for salvation as a provision available to anyone? I should have written it down even though it will chap me to take notes on your theology.

Unlimited Atonment?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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