The Trinity

[Doveaman]

So you're a Binitarian then?

Nope, I believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three distinct Hypostases existing as one God being. Hear O Israel, the LORD your God, the LORD is one.

We're talking about the Trinity here, Trinitas, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Three distinct Hypostases; one God.

I'm talking about the Trinity too, but defined differently.

The Father as a singular person is one Hypostasis.

The Son as a singular person is the second Hypostasis.

The Holy Spirit as a plural person is the third Hypostasis.

Three distinct Hypostases; one God.

Or think of it this way, "the reality of the Father is that He is the Father of the Son; the reality of the Son is that He is the Son of the Father; the reality of the Spirit is that He is the Spirit of the Father and the Son."


Tell me, how do you explain the following verses?

"God is Spirit" - John 4:24.

Does Spirit in the above verse refer to the Holy Spirit?

"The Lord is the Spirit" - 2 Cor 3:17.

Also, does Spirit in the above verse refer to the Holy Spirit?

"I and the Father are one." - John 10:30.

The Father and the Son are one Essence.

Is that Essence a Spirit Essence? and is that Spirit Essence Holy?

In other words, is the Father and Son one Holy Spirit Essence?

 

[Doveaman]

What is not clear from the Comma is that the Triune nature of the one God is analogous or in any way whatsoever comparable to a hypothetical tripartite or triune nature of human being.

"For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one." - 1 John 5:7-8.

"The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground (body) and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (spirit), and the man became a living being (soul)." - Gen 2:7.

There are some who believe that the Spirit represents Christ' divinity in that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, the water represents Christ' body which consist of mostly water, and the blood represents Christ as a living soul in that the life of all flesh is in the blood.

"One of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water." - John 19:34.

 

[laconicstudent]

There are some who believe that the Spirit represents Christ' divinity in that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, the water represents Christ' body which consist of mostly water, and the blood represents Christ as a living soul in that the life of all flesh is in the blood.

"One of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water." - John 19:34.

Saint Longinus the Centurion.

"The Holy Martyr Longinus the Centurion, a Roman soldier, served in Judea under the command of the Governor, Pontius Pilate. When our Savior Jesus Christ was crucified, it was the detachment of soldiers under the command of Longinus which stood watch on Golgotha, at the very foot of the holy Cross. Longinus and his soldiers were eyewitnesses of the final moments of the earthly life of the Lord, and of the great and awesome portents that appeared at His death. These events shook the centurion's soul. Longinus believed in Christ and confessed before everyone, "Truly this was the Son of God" (Mt. 27:54).

According to Church Tradition, Longinus was the soldier who pierced the side of the Crucified Savior with a spear, and received healing from an eye affliction when blood and water poured forth from the wound. "

Troparion - Tone 1

Longinus, you beheld the King of Glory
who was nailed to the Cross, yet shone on those in darkness.
You were enlightened by His rays and became a martyr and save those who cry:
Glory to Him who gave you strength!
Glory to Him who granted you a crown!
Glory to Him who through you grants healing to all!


​

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Nope, I believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three distinct Hypostases existing as one God being. Hear O Israel, the LORD your God, the LORD is one.
I'm talking about the Trinity too, but defined differently.

The Father as a singular person is one Hypostasis.

The Son as a singular person is the second Hypostasis.

The Holy Spirit as a plural person is the third Hypostasis.

Three distinct Hypostases; one God.

Or think of it this way, "the reality of the Father is that He is the Father of the Son; the reality of the Son is that He is the Son of the Father; the reality of the Spirit is that He is the Spirit of the Father and the Son."


Tell me, how do you explain the following verses?

"God is Spirit" - John 4:24.

Does Spirit in the above verse refer to the Holy Spirit?

"The Lord is the Spirit" - 2 Cor 3:17.

Also, does Spirit in the above verse refer to the Holy Spirit?

"I and the Father are one." - John 10:30.

The Father and the Son are one Essence.

Is that Essence a Spirit Essence? and is that Spirit Essence Holy?

In other words, is the Father and Son one Holy Spirit Essence?

I guess where you have me confused is that you assert that the Holy Spirit is a distinct Hypostasis from the Father and the Son in the first part of your post (which is Trinitarian) and then in the second part of your post you indicate that the Father and Son are "one Holy Spirit Essence".

Are you using "Holy Spirit" therefore in two different senses? One as referring to the Third and distinct Person/Hypostasis of the Holy Trinity and the other as a general descriptor of God as being spirit and holy?

If you would clarify that would help clear up the confusion I'm experiencing here.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[CryptoLutheran]

"For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one." - 1 John 5:7-8.

"The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground (body) and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (spirit), and the man became a living being (soul)." - Gen 2:7.

There are some who believe that the Spirit represents Christ' divinity in that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, the water represents Christ' body which consist of mostly water, and the blood represents Christ as a living soul in that the life of all flesh is in the blood.

"One of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water." - John 19:34.

Wouldn't it make more sense that the "Spirit" who bears witness is the Holy Spirit? The same Holy Spirit, spoken of in John's Gospel, who is the Spirit of truth etc? I don't see why "Spirit" here ought to refer to Christ's divinity in an abstract sense.

Additionally, Christ, as fully human shares in all that of which makes us human,

"Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us." (Definition of Chalcedon)

Christ, as man, has a "rational soul and a rational body", that is a human soul and a human body and a human will (that one touched upon at Constantinople II which rejected the heterodox position of Monothelitism), etc. He is fully human.

I guess that's just to say that I'm a bit uncomfortable with the idea of "Spirit" being another way of speaking of Christ's divinity, it sounds vaguely Apollinarian to me, but I could be thinking too much on it.

Additionally I'm not convinced your use of Genesis 2:7 justifies a tripartite division of the human person into body, soul and spirit. The passage speaks of God breathing and giving life to the dust and man becoming a living being; as opposed to a non-living and non-breathing thing. The passage describes the giving of life, not a tripartite division of the human person.

In that sense I think the passage lends credence to anthropological holism/psychosomatic unity, man as an indivisible unit. My main problems with the Tripartite schema of contemporary theology and the Dualistic schema as well is that both seem far more Platonic than biblical.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Doveaman]

I guess where you have me confused is that you assert that the Holy Spirit is a distinct Hypostasis from the Father and the Son in the first part of your post (which is Trinitarian) and then in the second part of your post you indicate that the Father and Son are "one Holy Spirit Essence".

Distinct from the Father and distinct from the Son does not mean separate from the Father or separate from the Son.

Are you using "Holy Spirit" therefore in two different senses? One as referring to the Third and distinct Person/Hypostasis of the Holy Trinity and the other as a general descriptor of God as being spirit and holy?

If you would clarify that would help clear up the confusion I'm experiencing here.

-CryptoLutheran

God relates to us as a Trinity, He relates to us as the Father of the Son and as the Son of the Father and as the Spirit of the Father and Son.

From this we can conclude:

(1) The Father relates to us as a distinct, singular Person:

A voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!" - Matt 17:5.

(2) The Son also relates to us as a distinct, singular Person:

"'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I." - John 14:28.

(3) The Holy Spirit relates to us as a distinct, plural Person:

"You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin" - Rom 8:9-10.

The “Spirit of God” living in us is the same “Spirit of Christ” living in us, and the Spirit of Christ living in us is Christ Himself living in us.

The Holy Spirit living in us is the Father and Son living in us. God lives in us as Father and Son through the Holy Spirit.

"In Him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by His Spirit." - Eph 2:22.

"And this is how we know that He lives in us: We know it by the Spirit He gave us." - 1 John 3:24.

"We know that we live in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit." - 1 John 4:13.

"God is Spirit" - John 4:24.

"The Lord is the Spirit" - 2 Cor 3:17.

"I and the Father are one." - John 10:30.

The Father and Son as one God are one Spirit, one Holy Spirit, and the one God relates to us as One singular Father and as One singular Son and as One plural Holy Spirit.

One singular Person + One singular Person + One plural Person existing as one God = Trinity.

The plural Holy Spirit is distinct from the singular Father and distinct from the singular Son because He is not the singular Father nor is He the singular Son, He is plural, existing as both Father and Son. The Holy Spirit is the Father and Son at work — creating, speaking, transforming us, living within us, working in us. Therefore the Holy Spirit works as a plural Person that is distinct from the singular Father and distinct from the singular Son, but not separate.

It's not the most accurate analogy of God, but Abby and Brittany can relate to us as two distinct, singular persons, and they can also relate to us as one plural being.

Two + One = Three.

​

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Except that according to the Doctrine of the Trinity the Holy Spirit is one singular Person, not a "plural" person.

The Father is a "singular" Person.
The Son is a "singular" Person.
The Holy Spirit is a "singular" Person.

That's the Trinity.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Trupurpose]

I was always confused about the trinity doctorine. It seems like it's man made. I think there is YHWH, and there is Yeshua. If you feel the Holy Spirit, it is either from God(YHWH) or Jesus'(Yehoveh) Spirit.

John 1:1-4
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 All things came to be through him, and without him nothing made had being. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of mankind.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I was always confused about the trinity doctorine. It seems like it's man made. I think there is YHWH, and there is Yeshua. If you feel the Holy Spirit, it is either from God(YHWH) or Jesus'(Yehoveh) Spirit.

John 1:1-4
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 All things came to be through him, and without him nothing made had being. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of mankind.

Look up the concept of "triple point" concerning liquid substances . . . really quite fascinating. But what it shows is that we do have a parallel to see that the one thing (like H20) can be BOTH GAS LIQUID AND SOLID AT THE SAME TIME IN THE SAME SPOT but still be made up of just H20 all the same. It has to do with the right temp and pressure all applied at the same time that gives rise to the state.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I don't believe that the "spirit, soul and body" are three parts of the human person. And they certainly aren't "separate minds". I only have one mind.

I'm one person, one creature. I have one mind.

The spirit can act contrary to the desire of the conscious mind, with it's own will that can sometimes thwart what the conscious mind is aiming for. This can be especially true of people who have wicked aims.

The Trinity and the human person are non-analogous.

Well, I find it interesting that the vast majority of christians cannot distinguish between the soul and the spirit, and at the same time cannot distinguish between the Holy Father and the Holy Spirit. I think these dilemmas are parallel, a confusion over what is essentially the same issue.
This creates a lot of doubt in people. Since you think you have the answer to this delimma, then please explain how you can tell the difference between the Holy Father and the Holy Spirit? What makes them distinct persons? (to use your very specific terminology) So far I've seen nothing from you that can alleviate the doubts of people like Doveman, who sees only two and not three. There is a very good reason for this confusion, which has to do with what I think is an extremely poorly thought out understanding of the Trinity by traditional religionists. You churn through all this data using big words like hypostatic and yet are unable to assuage the confusion and doubt of anyone who is struggling with this issue.

BTW, where does the word hypostatic come from? Is there the possibility of a hyperstatic union, or a hypodynamic union?

 

[CryptoLutheran]

The Father is distinct from the Spirit in that the Father is unbegotten and proceeds from no one; He is the Father from whom the Son is eternally begotten. The Spirit, on the other hand, proceeds from the Father.

The Spirit proceeds from the Father.
The Father does not proceed from the Spirit.
The Spirit is not begotten of the Father, only the Son is begotten of the Father.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[LutheranMafia]

Well, lets have a procession! Other than this extremely vague point about order of procession, is there a single other distinction that you can make between the Holy Father and the Holy Spirit? The distinction between the Son and the other two is readily apparent to everyone, but your distinction between the Spirit and the Father is vague to say the least. What you said is not going to convince anyone that has the least bit of doubt.

 

[Doveaman]

Except that according to the Doctrine of the Trinity the Holy Spirit is one singular Person, not a "plural" person.

The Father is a "singular" Person.
The Son is a "singular" Person.
The Holy Spirit is a "singular" Person.

That's the Trinity.

Yes, I am well aware of the "Doctrine of the Trinity".

Perhaps if the "Doctrine of the Trinity" can explain these verses below maybe then it will make some Biblical sense to me.

"And this is His (the Father's) command: to believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ...And this is how we know that He (the Father) lives in us: We know it by the Spirit He gave us." - 1 John 3:23-24.

The Spirit living in us is the Father living in us, suggesting that the Spirit is the Father.

"You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin" - Rom 8:9-10.

The Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ, and the Spirit of Christ living in us is the Christ Himself living in us, suggesting that the Spirit is also Christ the Son.

"The true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." - John 4:23-24.

God the Father is Spirit.

"The same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away...whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom." - 2 Cor 3:14-17.

Christ the Lord is the Spirit.

These verses tell us that God the Father is Spirit and Christ the Son is the Spirit, suggesting that the Father and Son is the Spirit; two existing as one Spirit, one Holy Spirit.

"Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in Me? The words I say to you are not just My own. Rather, it is the Father, living in Me, who is doing His work." - John 14:10.

What is the mechanism by which the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son? Is it not through the Holy Spirit?

What is the mechanism by which the Father speaks and works in the Son? Is it not through the Holy Spirit?

It would seem that the Holy Father and the Holy Son work together as one Holy Spirit existing as one Holy God.

"I and My Father are one." - John 10:30.

Perhaps you have a different explanation of the verses quoted above. If you do, I would be happy to hear it.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Well, lets have a procession! Other than this extremely vague point about order of procession, is there a single other distinction that you can make between the Holy Father and the Holy Spirit? The distinction between the Son and the other two is readily apparent to everyone, but your distinction between the Spirit and the Father is vague to say the least. What you said is not going to convince anyone that has the least bit of doubt.

You really ought to have a talk with your pastor so he or she can explain some of the basics of Trinitarianism with you.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Yes, I am well aware of the "Doctrine of the Trinity".

Perhaps if the "Doctrine of the Trinity" can explain these verses below maybe then it will make some Biblical sense to me.

"And this is His (the Father's) command: to believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ...And this is how we know that He (the Father) lives in us: We know it by the Spirit He gave us." - 1 John 3:23-24.

The Spirit living in us is the Father living in us, suggesting that the Spirit is the Father.

"You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin" - Rom 8:9-10.

The Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ, and the Spirit of Christ living in us is the Christ Himself living in us, suggesting that the Spirit is also Christ the Son.

"The true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." - John 4:23-24.

God the Father is Spirit.

"The same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away...whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom." - 2 Cor 3:14-17.

Christ the Lord is the Spirit.

These verses tell us that God the Father is Spirit and Christ the Son is the Spirit, suggesting that the Father and Son is the Spirit; two existing as one Spirit, one Holy Spirit.

"Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in Me? The words I say to you are not just My own. Rather, it is the Father, living in Me, who is doing His work." - John 14:10.

What is the mechanism by which the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son? Is it not through the Holy Spirit?

What is the mechanism by which the Father speaks and works in the Son? Is it not through the Holy Spirit?

It would seem that the Holy Father and the Holy Son work together as one Holy Spirit existing as one Holy God.

"I and My Father are one." - John 10:30.

Perhaps you have a different explanation of the verses quoted above. If you do, I would be happy to hear it.

So, let me get this straight, you aren't a Trinitarian? I really can't tell at this point if you're just really confused about the Trinity or simply don't believe it.

What you've continued to define as "the Trinity" that I've noticed is patently not what the Church has called "the Trinity". Trinitarianism is a specific theological position.

As for the passages you offered, no I don't read any of them as teaching what you seem to be suggesting. Studying the concept of Perichoresis might help you out a bit in understanding the inter-penetration of the Three Hypostases.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Doveaman]

So, let me get this straight, you aren't a Trinitarian? I really can't tell at this point if you're just really confused about the Trinity or simply don't believe it.

What you've continued to define as "the Trinity" that I've noticed is patently not what the Church has called "the Trinity". Trinitarianism is a specific theological position.

As for the passages you offered, no I don't read any of them as teaching what you seem to be suggesting. Studying the concept of Perichoresis might help you out a bit in understanding the inter-penetration of the Three Hypostases.

-CryptoLutheran

I realize you ignored every verse and question I asked in my previous post.

I don't need help in understanding the doctrine of the trinity, I know what it is, and what it is doesn't make sense. This is why I ask you to give an explanation in response to my previous post. If you understand the doctrine of the trinity then respond to the verses and questions I asked in my previous post, and do it in a manner that is consistent with the doctrine of the trinity. That shouldn't be difficult, should it?

 

[LutheranMafia]

You really ought to have a talk with your pastor so he or she can explain some of the basics of Trinitarianism with you.

-CryptoLutheran

Why, because you can't come up with a meaningful distinction between the Holy Father and the Holy Spirit? All that you have proven here is that you are conceited. That is not what I would expect from someone with even a modest amount of real spiritual knowledge, but then that probably explains why your explanation is so profoundly weak.

 

[Dillinger]

We are all made in the image of God which means that we have 3 parts just like God does: soul, spirit and body. The soul corresponds to the Holy Father, the spirit to the Holy Spirit, and the body corresponds to the Son.

I am not exactly sure about your categories. I might be tempted to employ the spirit, the soul, and the self. (Although there is something to be said for the "body" in regards to incarnation theology.) That being said, I believe that the defining characteristic of God is that "God is love." (1 John 4:8) And "love" is a triadic relationship in which the lover and the beloved are united as one in love. IOW, God is both the "lover" and the "beloved" because God is "love" itself; this is the Trinity because these three (i.e. the lover, the beloved, and love itself) are one.

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

The Beauty of ALL Life~Is~ETERNAL~&~HOLY SPIRIT MANIFEST ETERNALLY FROM EVERLASTING~UNTO EVERLASTING ETERNAL~GENERATED~&~PERPETUAUTED IN~BY~FROM~&~THROUGHOUT THE EVERLASTING ~ (((LOVE))) ~IN GOD~BETWEEN GOD HIMSELF THE FATHER OF HIMSELF BEGOTTEN~ GOD HIS ONLY SON THROUGH~&~BY HIMSELF GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT~ALL ETERNAL GOD~HE IS...THAT HE IS AL (ONE)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


i LOVE YOU ABBA GOD & THANK YOU FOR SUCH WORD'S!!! They are Y(OUR'S) & NOT mine; i am nothing,Yet YOU ARE MY EVERYTHING & ALL i SHALL FOREVER NEED, IN CHRIST ALMIGHTY MY EVERLASTING ETERNAL SAVIOUR & IMMANUEL JESUS NAME THE HOLY SPIRIT PRAY'S me, HALLELUJAH~&~AMEN...


SeraphimsCherub,
GOD Bless

 

[BrendanMark]

The Spirit is God’s way of being present, powerfully present, in our lives and communities as we await the consummation of the kingdom of God. Precisely because he understood the Spirit as God’s personal presence, Paul also understood the Spirit always as an empowering presence; whatever else, for Paul the Spirit was an experienced reality.
Fee, Gordon D. – God’s Empowering Presence—The Holy Spirit in the Letters of Paul [Hendrickson 1994 p. xxi]


Here was how the early church came to appropriate the salvation that Christ had brought; and here was how believers came to understand their own existence as essentially eschatological, with the Spirit as both the evidence that God’s great future for the people of God had already made its way into the present and the guarantee that God would complete the work he had begun in Christ. Thus the Spirit is absolutely presuppositional to their entire experience and understanding of their present life in Christ; and as often happens with such presuppositional matters, one rarely looks at them reflectively.
Fee, Gordon D. – God’s Empowering Presence—The Holy Spirit in the Letters of Paul [Hendrickson 1994 p. 2-3]


If you have no glimmer of comprehension of what 'grace' or 'union with God' means, have never felt moved by the power of God and so forth then of course you will have no clue of the Spirit who always points to Son or Father.


1 Thes 1:5
Second, Paul wants to remind them, as he will the Corinthians in yet another context (1 Cor 2:1-5), that the message of the gospel is truth accompanied by experienced reality. It did indeed come “in word,” meaning in the form of proclaimed truth, as a message from God himself (see 2:4 and 13). But for this appeal the proof is in the eating. This it was not “in word alone.” God verified its truthfulness by a display of his power thorough the ministry of the Holy Spirit.
Fee, Gordon – God’s Empowering Presence: The Holy Spirit in the Letters of Paul [Hendrickson, 1992, 2004, p. 44]