The Trinity

[LutheranMafia]

Doveman's argument is exactly equivalent to confusing soul with spirit. It is an extremely common mistake which Aibrean herself made previously. Since the Father and the Holy Spirit represent the soul and spirit of God, confusing the Holy Spirit with the Father is the same as confusing soul with spirit.

 

[Doveaman]

God is not plural.

I believe He is.

One God (divine essence, substance, or being however you want to look at it), three persons (natures of God), separate but equal.

Three separate, divine persons having three separate, divine natures would be three gods, and not one God. Unless you are saying that the one God is also three gods. Are you?

 

[Doveaman]

Because Jesus refers to the Spirit as ALLOS . . . numerically distinct from Himself . . . yet qualitatively the same. It is another of the same kind.

The Holy Spirit can be viewed as numerically distinct because He is described as the plural person of God, while the Father and the Son are described as the singular persons of God.The Father functions as the Father and the Son functions as the Son, but the Holy Spirit is both the Father and Son functioning as one Spirit, one Holy Spirit: “I and My Father are one.” - John 10:30.

Further, in Acts, you have the Spirit speaking ALL over . . . and Luke specifies Him AS THE SPIRIT . . . and does not use the same parameters as He does when Jesus speaks . . .

This is because the Holy Spirit as the plural person of God can speak.

as well, the Spirit has a will, of His own

This is because the Holy Spirit as the plural person of God has a will.

These are all attributes that point to personhood and words used to describe Him which necessiate that He be numerically distinct from the Son or the Father.

God reveals Himself to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, each one having personhood, but this is because God is Father (singular), and God is also Son (singular), and God is also Father and Son functioning as one Holy Spirit (plural). The personhood of the Holy Spirit is the personhood of both the Father and Son functioning as one Spirit, one Holy Spirit: “I and My Father are one.”, “Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father...I am in the Father, and that the Father is in Me...” - John 10:30, John 14:9-10.

The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father through the Holy Spirit. The Father and the Son are one and the same Spirit, one and the same Holy Spirit.

 

[Doveaman]

Doveman's argument is exactly equivalent to confusing soul with spirit. It is an extremely common mistake which Aibrean herself made previously. Since the Father and the Holy Spirit represent the soul and spirit of God, confusing the Holy Spirit with the Father is the same as confusing soul with spirit.

Actually, I consider the soul and spirit to be different but yet the same, just as the Father and the Holy Spirit are different but yet the same. If we examined the nature of the human soul as God described it in the beginning we will see that it reflects the “triune” nature of God:

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness”...And the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground [human body] and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life [human spirit], and the man became a living soul. - Gen 1:26, 2:7.

Notice that man has a distinct spirit and a distinct body, but when the spirit and the body function as one entity man exists as one living soul. The living soul is the spirit and the body functioning as one man. Man himself is the living soul. The life of man (both spirit and body combined) is the living soul.

Also notice that God is the distinct Father and the distinct Son, but when the Father and the Son function as one entity God exists as one Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Father and Son functioning as one God. God Himself is the Holy Spirit. The life of God (both Father and Son combined) is the Holy Spirit.

The personhood of the Father is the Father’s own personhood, and the personhood of the Son is the Son’s own personhood, but the personhood of the Holy Spirit is the personhood of both the Father and Son functioning as one God: The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light...Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness” - Gen 1:2-3,26.

It is the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit (the plural person of God), who spoke and who also created.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Actually, I consider the soul and spirit to be different but yet the same, just as the Father and the Holy Spirit are different but yet the same. If we examined the nature of the human soul as God described it in the beginning we will see that it reflects the “triune” nature of God:

Different but the same is extremely vague. They are different personalities, just as your own spirit has a personality separate from your conscious mind, yet your spirit is not a separate being from you.

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness”...And the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground [human body] and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life [human spirit], and the man became a living soul. - Gen 1:26, 2:7.

Notice that man has a distinct spirit and a distinct body, but when the spirit and the body function as one entity man exists as one living soul. The living soul is the spirit and the body functioning as one man. Man himself is the living soul. The life of man (both spirit and body combined) is the living soul.

Also notice that God is the distinct Father and the distinct Son, but when the Father and the Son function as one entity God exists as one Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Father and Son functioning as one God. God Himself is the Holy Spirit. The life of God (both Father and Son combined) is the Holy Spirit.

The personhood of the Father is the Father’s own personhood, and the personhood of the Son is the Son’s own personhood, but the personhood of the Holy Spirit is the personhood of both the Father and Son functioning as one God: The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light...Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness” - Gen 1:2-3,26.

It is the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit (the plural person of God) who spoke and who also created.

A survey of the acts of God in the New Testament where spirit and soul are first delineated, reveals that God's actions are always done by the Holy Spirit. The Father is unchanging and eternal, which means that He doesn't act, or his actions are much more mysterious and hard to detect, like speaking through the "still small voice".

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

The Holy Spirit can be viewed as numerically distinct because He is described as the plural person of God, while the Father and the Son are described as the singular persons of God.The Father functions as the Father and the Son functions as the Son, but the Holy Spirit is both the Father and Son functioning as one Spirit, one Holy Spirit: “I and My Father are one.” - John 10:30. This is because the Holy Spirit as the plural person of God can speak.
This is because the Holy Spirit as the plural person of God has a will.
God reveals Himself to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, each one having personhood, but this is because God is Father (singular), and God is also Son (singular), and God is also Father and Son functioning as one Holy Spirit (plural). The personhood of the Holy Spirit is the personhood of both the Father and Son functioning as one Spirit, one Holy Spirit: “I and My Father are one.”, “Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father...I am in the Father, and that the Father is in Me...” - John 10:30, John 14:9-10.

The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father through the Holy Spirit. The Father and the Son are one and the same Spirit, one and the same Holy Spirit.

1. The Spirit (pneuma) is singular . . . so no plurality there

2. Allos/allon REQUIRES numerical distinction . . . I dont think you get this . . . it means that the SPIRIT IS NOT THE SON. Period. Your systematic cannot work by sheer virtue of this word alone.

Sorry

 

[Doveaman]

Different but the same is extremely vague.

The trinity is extremely vague, hence this debate.

They are different personalities, just as your own spirit has a personality separate from your conscious mind, yet your spirit is not a separate being from you.

Even though a distinction can be made between the spirit and the mind it is the spirit that gives the mind consciousness. It is the spirit that gives our mind functionality:

God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life [human spirit], and the man became a living soul...it is the spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding...For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him?" - Gen 2:7, Job 32:8, 1 Cor 2:11.

Man’s spirit gives him the ability to reason, think, feel, will, perceive, judge, etc. Remove man’s spirit and man will loose consciousness.

A survey of the acts of God in the New Testament where spirit and soul are first delineated, reveals that God's actions are always done by the Holy Spirit.

This is because the Holy Spirit is God in action:

God is Spirit - John 4:24.

The Lord is the Spirit - 2 Cor 3:17.

The Father is unchanging and eternal, which means that He doesn't act, or his actions are much more mysterious and hard to detect, like speaking through the "still small voice".

Jesus disagrees:

Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."..."Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?...the Father who dwells in Me does the works." - John 5:17, 14:10.

It is the Father at work in the Son, and the Father works in the Son through the Holy Spirit.

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form. - Col 2:9.

 

[Doveaman]

1. The Spirit (pneuma) is singular . . . so no plurality there

God is also singular:

“Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.” - Gal 3:20.

God is one and He is also three (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

The Holy Spirit is one and He is also two (Father and Son).

2. Allos/allon REQUIRES numerical distinction . . . I dont think you get this . . .

I think I do.

Numerical distinction does not mean numerical separation.

For example:

The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground [human body] and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life [human spirit], and the man became a living soul. - Gen 1:26, 2:7.

Man has a spirit and a body that is numerically distinct from his living soul (man is one living soul who consist of one spirit and one body), the spirit and the body exists as one living soul.

God is Father and Son who are numerically distinct from the Holy Spirit (God is one Holy Spirit who consist of one Father and one Son), the Father and the Son exists as one Holy Spirit.

it means that the SPIRIT IS NOT THE SON. Period.

I agree the Spirit is not the Son, but the Son is the Spirit:

The Lord is the Spirit - 2 Cor 3:17.

Your systematic cannot work by sheer virtue of this word alone.

It can work if we focus on what Scripture says about the Spirit and not just a mere word.

God is Spirit - John 4:24.

The Lord is the Spirit - 2 Cor 3:17.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

God is also singular:

“Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.” - Gal 3:20.

God is one and He is also three (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

The Holy Spirit is one and He is also two (Father and Son).
I think I do.

Numerical distinction does not mean numerical separation.

For example:

The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground [human body] and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life [human spirit], and the man became a living soul. - Gen 1:26, 2:7.

Man has a spirit and a body that is numerically distinct from his living soul (man is one living soul who consist of one spirit and one body), the spirit and the body exists as one living soul.

God is Father and Son who are numerically distinct from the Holy Spirit (God is one Holy Spirit who consist of one Father and one Son), the Father and the Son exists as one Holy Spirit.
I agree the Spirit is not the Son, but the Son is the Spirit:

The Lord is the Spirit - 2 Cor 3:17.
It can work if we focus on what Scripture says about the Spirit and not just a mere word.

God is also singular:

True enought; unfortunately tho, the Father and the Son are NOT plural beings. God is the "what" the Father son and spirit are the whoms. So, God (theos) being plural is not problematic . .. however we are not speaking of the overarching "what" but of the individual "whoms" . . . so your arguement fails. If you could show the "father" or the "son" to be plural . . . you may have an arguement. As you cannot, my point stands.

I think I do.

Numerical distinction does not mean numerical separation.

Agreed. I still dont think that you fully realize the force of allon . . . The Spirit is a person, individual, IN THE SAME KIND as the Son and the Father . . . yet DISTINCT. He cannot be separate . . . that would make three Gods. The numerical distinction REQUIRED in allon makes your contention IMPOSSIBLE. Greek is greek . . . you cannot change it. Much as the pros in John 1:1 makes the Son distinct from the Father . . . it is what it is . . . your point cannot stand with allon. sorry

Man has a spirit and a body that is numerically distinct from his living soul (man is one living soul who consist of one spirit and one body), the spirit and the body exists as one living soul.

Apples and oranges. The untiy of man is found in the MIND of the person. Tho there may be distinctions in components of what a man IS . . . each one of these components doesnt have personal distinction as there is with the members of the Godhead. Your analogy cannot even compare.

It can work if we focus on what Scripture says about the Spirit and not just a mere word

I am all for that . . . but you cannot just take pieces. You must take ALL of what is said and integrate them into a healthy systematic. Unfortunately, while your position may be able to work with several passages . . . it does not work with them all. You MUST reconcile allos/allon into your framework with it meaning EXACTLY what it means. You may be able to reconcile 10 of 15 passages (for example) . . . but if you cannot reconcile them all, then you must find a system that does.

In this case, the Spirit being defined as allon throws your whole system out of whack. He is a person all unto Himself, the same as the Son, yet numerically distinct from the Son . . . that is what ALLON MEANS. Another of the same kind, numerically distinct . . . it is what it is.

 

[LutheranMafia]

The trinity is extremely vague, hence this debate.
Even though a distinction can be made between the spirit and the mind it is the spirit that gives the mind consciousness. It is the spirit that gives our mind functionality:

God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life [human spirit], and the man became a living soul...it is the spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding...For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him?" - Gen 2:7, Job 32:8, 1 Cor 2:11.

Man’s spirit gives him the ability to reason, think, feel, will, perceive, judge, etc. Remove man’s spirit and man will loose consciousness.

We must have spirit to exist, it is impossible to exist without a spirit, that is like living without breathing, but that doesn't mean that the spirit is the conscious mind.

 

[LutheranMafia]

The Holy Spirit is one and He is also two (Father and Son).

Where do you get that the Holy Spirit is two? It is one of the three, just as your spirit is one of your three components. You spirit is not two in soul and body.

 

[LutheranMafia]

God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life [human spirit], and the man became a living soul...it is the spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding...For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him?" - Gen 2:7, Job 32:8, 1 Cor 2:11.

The word that is sometime translated in the OT as soul is nephesh. It is also translated as spirit one third of the time. Nephesh is not the same thing as soul, it is something more like the Norse concept of hamingja: Hamingja - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even fish have nephesh but fish do not have a soul. Nephesh is the concept of the spiritual aspects of a bloodline. Nephesh is also translated as dead body in one place, so it is very tied into the body, which is very much distinct from the NT concept of soul.

 

[Zeena]

We must have spirit to exist, it is impossible to exist without a spirit
*snip*

Job 34:14-15
If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

Ps 51:11
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

 

[LutheranMafia]

And I set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
Leviticus 26:11

So God has nephesh too. Interesting!

 

[LutheranMafia]

And here is an entirely different word that is translated as soul:

And they smote all the souls that [were] therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying [them]: there was not any left to breathe: and he burnt Hazor with fire.
Joshua 11:11

For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls [which] I have made.
Isaiah 57:16

The word spirit (ruach) is also used in the second verse.

 

[Zeena]

1 Cor 6:17
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

 

[Mikecpking]

The word that is sometime translated in the OT as soul is nephesh. It is also translated as spirit one third of the time. Nephesh is not the same thing as soul, it is something more like the Norse concept of hamingja: Hamingja - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even fish have nephesh but fish do not have a soul. Nephesh is the concept of the spiritual aspects of a bloodline. Nephesh is also translated as dead body in one place, so it is very tied into the body, which is very much distinct from the NT concept of soul.

Hi,
Wherever 'soul' is mentioned in the OT it is ALWAYS translated from the Hebrew word 'nephesh'. Also this applies in the NT from 'soul ' from the Greek word 'Psuche'

The Hebrews never had a concept of anuimals or humans having a soul, but regarded themselves as souls.

Here is a definition of 'nephesh'

THE PICTURE - WINDOWS Nephesh - Psyche - Soul
The important passage in Genesis 2:7 sets the scene for this 'window - word' into the nature of personhood. An individual becomes a 'nephesh' from the infusion of divine breath into moulded dust. In physical terms 'nephesh' means, 'neck', 'throat', 'gullet' and came to mean 'life', that 'vital motion' which distinguishes a living being from a corpse.

'Nephesh' has such a variety of senses that we must make a careful definition in each particular case. Meanings overlap and are used side by side. It is easy to end up with contradictory statements about 'nephesh'. Here are some of the central statements about 'nephesh':-
• it is that vital life which is shared by both humans and animals [Gen 2:19].
• it is life that is bound up with the body, blood is the vehicle of nephesh [Dt 12:23], at death it dies [Nu 23:10] draining away with the blood, with resuscitation it 'returns'; not that it has gone anywhere.
• it can denote 'the living individual themselves' [Gen 14:21], and can replace the personal pronoun to create special emphasis [Ps 42:6], God uses it of himself [Am 6:8].
• it is strongly instinctive [animal] activity; desire, vital urge, feeling, emotion, mood [Dt 14:26].
• it is feelings and emotions of a spiritual kind; grief, pain, joy, peace, love [Ezk 27:31]; its highest expression is longing for God [Ps 25:1].
The New Testament uses the Greek 'psyche' with the sense of the Hebrew 'nephesh'. Paul's writings are significant for how rarely he uses it. The Synoptics are interesting in that one third of their usage refers to life beyond death [Mt 10:28,39; 16:25-26; Mk 8:35-37; Lk 9:24; 21:19], due to the overlap of present and future in the Kingdom of God; revolutionary in terms of its Hebrew roots.
This 'nephesh' is primarily the life of the whole person in terms of strongly instinctive [animal] activity. It reflects the glory and richness of God's gift of life to him though susceptible to death. It is not an independent substance which, as many have argued, survives death

 

[LutheranMafia]

I just listed two verses where the word for souls is neshama, not nephesh.

As to nephesh, it clearly does not mean soul in the same sense as psyche does in Greek. A clear delineation is made between pneuma (spirit) and psyche (soul) in the new testament, but no such clear delineation is made between neshama, nephesh and ruach.

 

[Mikecpking]

I just listed two verses where the word for souls is neshama, not nephesh.

As to nephesh, it clearly does not mean soul in the same sense as psyche does in Greek. A clear delineation is made between pneuma (spirit) and psyche (soul) in the new testament, but no such clear delineation is made between neshama, nephesh and ruach.

Hi,
I checked Joshua 11:11 and it is 'nephesh' (soul) in that verse, not 'neshama'. 'Neshama' is breath as in Genesis 2:7 (breath of God).

The Hebrews noted differences between 'ruach' and 'nephesh' as 'nephesh' is linked to blood (DT12:23 and Lev 17:11) whereas ruach is never associated with blood.

For the best definition of nephesh which is the Hebrew equivalent of 'Psuche', please trawl through all 18 pages to get get a comprehnsive understanding of the Hebrews concept of 'nephesh' and its fulfillment as 'psuche'


Dr. Tory Hoff

 

[Doveaman]

If you could show the "father" or the "son" to be plural . . . you may have an arguement. As you cannot, my point stands.

I never claimed the Father or Son to be plural. I said the Father and Son are plural. They are two persons (plural) existing as one Spirit; one Holy Spirit; one Holy God.

Then God (plural) said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness" - Gen 1:26.

I and My Father are one. - John 10:30.

Apples and oranges. The untiy of man is found in the MIND of the person.

Man consists of a spirit and a body. Man is the unity of the spirit and the body that becomes a living soul:

The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground [body] and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life [spirit], and the man became a living soul. - Gen 1:26, 2:7.

Tho there may be distinctions in components of what a man IS . . . each one of these components doesnt have personal distinction as there is with the members of the Godhead. Your analogy cannot even compare.

My analogy shows that three distinctions can exists as one man or as one God:

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. - 1 John 5:7-8.

The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit exist as the one God, Yahweh/Elohim.

The Spirit, the water, and the blood exist as the one Man, Jesus Christ.

Unfortunately, while your position may be able to work with several passages . . . it does not work with them all. You MUST reconcile allos/allon into your framework with it meaning EXACTLY what it means. You may be able to reconcile 10 of 15 passages (for example) . . . but if you cannot reconcile them all, then you must find a system that does.

This is also true in your case. You keep focusing on the word “allos/allon”, but you also need to reconcile that word with the scriptural passages that refer to God as the Spirit:

God is Spirit - John 4:24.

The Lord is the Spirit - 2 Cor 3:17.

What kind of Spirit is God if not the Holy Spirit?

What kind of Spirit is the Lord if not the Holy Spirit?

I and My Father are one. - John 10:30.

How are the Father and the Son one? One what if not one Spirit?[FONT=&quot]

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