The Trinity

[CiananIgnatius]

Hi there,

I understand that this is a rather divisive subject to begin my posting here, but that's because I'm not actually a newbie. I am a regular member who has been going through a time of serious questioning. I'm posting these questions for people to respond to in a thoughtful manner. Is God a trinity, and is Jesus God?

1. If Jesus is God and God does not change, how did Jesus have a different consciousness and perspective while on Earth from the Father?

2. If all three members of the trinity are made of the same substance, how do they differ?

3. If the trinity is central to the dogma of Christian theology, why is it not explicitly stated in the New Testament?

4. If Jesus is God, why did he pray to God?

5. If Jesus is God, why does he refer to the Father as greater than himself? If both the Father and Son are wholly God, how can one be greater and one lesser?

6. If Jesus is God, why does he refer to himself as the Son of man?

7. If Jesus is God, and God is uncreated, why does Jesus have the title Firstborn of All Creation?

8. If both Jesus and the Father are God, how does his will differ from the Father's?

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. Mark 10:18

 

[Hentenza]

Thread moved to Exploring Christianity from Christian Apologetics.

 

[beforHim]

In all world views there are going to be questions unaccounted for, things we don't understand, seeming irreconcilables, etc. The trinity is one of those in the Christian world view. If you look long enough around the internet, you'll get plenty of answers to all your questions above, but realize that we'll never understand it all.
So. . .
If you're epxloring Chrisianity, but then stop because we can't answer all questions satisfactorialy, realize that when you put this same test to any worldview, you'll be left rejecting everything- a contradiction in itself (if you are "rejecting all" then you must reject "rejecting all". Weird, huh?)

BTW, I could myself give answers to some of those (but I feel my reply above is more to the point which needs to be made). . .just letting you know, lest you think I have no answers and am just copping out. Cool.

 

[ebia]

Hi there,

I understand that this is a rather divisive subject to begin my posting here, but that's because I'm not actually a newbie. I am a regular member who has been going through a time of serious questioning. I'm posting these questions for people to respond to in a thoughtful manner. Is God a trinity, and is Jesus God?

1. If Jesus is God and God does not change, how did Jesus have a different consciousness and perspective while on Earth from the Father?

"God does not change" is overblown as an absolute. Involvement within time necessarly implies change. God's essential character doesn't change, but he's not a statue.

2. If all three members of the trinity are made of the same substance, how do they differ?

One can play around with some fancy statements in greek, but really to get ones head around Father, Son and Spirit one gets involved in the narrative and joins in the dance. The same applies to some of your other questions that I've therefore left out.

3. If the trinity is central to the dogma of Christian theology, why is it not explicitly stated in the New Testament?

Because its not central, its an abstraction of what is central.

4. If Jesus is God, why did he pray to God?

Because he is also human.

6. If Jesus is God, why does he refer to himself as the Son of man?

"Son of Man" is a label that would have brought to mind ideas of a representative person, and of the figure in Daniel.

7. If Jesus is God, and God is uncreated, why does Jesus have the title Firstborn of All Creation?

That's not meant to imply he is created, but something of where he sits in relation to creation.

 

[beforHim]

Good answers, ebia.

 

[drich0150]

Hi there,

I understand that this is a rather divisive subject to begin my posting here, but that's because I'm not actually a newbie. I am a regular member who has been going through a time of serious questioning. I'm posting these questions for people to respond to in a thoughtful manner. Is God a trinity, and is Jesus God?

Yes & Yes.

1. If Jesus is God and God does not change, how did Jesus have a different consciousness and perspective while on Earth from the Father?

God is a title not a name, as in God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. The son and the Father are two separate persons, and as such can have two separate consciousness.

2. If all three members of the trinity are made of the same substance, how do they differ?

I believe this is explained in their Titles. The Father takes on the Role as a Traditional Jewish Father. Or rather the Father's role has been given or is to be mirrored in men when they become fathers. The same with the Son (to carry out the will of the Father,) and The Holy Spirit is described as an intermediary between us and the other two members of the God Head.

3. If the trinity is central to the dogma of Christian theology, why is it not explicitly stated in the New Testament?

Because christianity as out lined by man's religious efforts, is not always the Christianity Outlined in scripture. You like most assume that the trinity is a central part the Christian doctrine, but Christ outlines the central doctrine as Loving your Lord God with all of your being and loving your neighbor as your self. The "trinity" is the way the we (in the know) can best describe God... And even then some explanations are shaky at best.

4. If Jesus is God, why did he pray to God?

Because The Son, wanted to Speak with The Father.

5. If Jesus is God, why does he refer to the Father as greater than himself? If both the Father and Son are wholly God, how can one be greater and one lesser?

Again if you take into account, that the word "God" is a title and not a name, and if you look at the roles a traditional Hebrew father takes (That has been modeled after the role our Heavenly Father has) Then it becomes clear that Christ is cementing His role as a sub servant Son.

6. If Jesus is God, why does he refer to himself as the Son of man?

When He calls Himself that He points back to the Prophesy found in Daniel 7.

7. If Jesus is God, and God is uncreated, why does Jesus have the title Firstborn of All Creation?

I can't find that phrase anywhere in my bible.

8. If both Jesus and the Father are God, how does his will differ from the Father's?

Why do you assume that it does?

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. Mark 10:18

Because at that time what Jesus said was what people believed, and the fact that that man called Him Good, pointed to His deity. Christ knew that man did not know Him to be God, so he corrected that man's greeting.

 

[Ih8s8n]

Hi there,

I understand that this is a rather divisive subject to begin my posting here, but that's because I'm not actually a newbie. I am a regular member who has been going through a time of serious questioning. I'm posting these questions for people to respond to in a thoughtful manner. Is God a trinity, and is Jesus God?

CiananIgnatius: Thank you for your serious questions. For the sake of clarity, I'm going to slightly alter the order in which I answer your questions by starting with questions #3 and #2 and then working my way back to question #1. I hope that you don't mind. Here goes...

3. If the trinity is central to the dogma of Christian theology, why is it not explicitly stated in the New Testament?

When studying the doctrine of the Trinity, the best place to start is the very first verse of the Old Testament.

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." (Genesis 1:1)

The Hebrew word that is translated as "God" in this passage is "elohiym" which is the PLURAL form of the Hebrew word "elowahh". In other words, "God" is presented as being PLURAL from the very first verse of scripture. In fact, "God" is presented in this manner somewhere around 2346 times in just the Old Testament alone. With this in mind, please consider such a verse of scripture as this:

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." (Genesis 1:26)

Here we see what can best be described as the Godhead or Trinity speaking amongst Themselves and using such words as "us" and "our" to describe Themselves. As I said, "God" is mentioned in the PLURAL some 2346 times in just the Old Testament alone, so the doctrine of the Trinity is really not a "new" concept when we come to the New Testament. Although you didn't ask it, I'll pause briefly to try to explain something that seems to trip up a lot of people, namely this:

How can Three be One?

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: and thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." (Deuteronomy 6:4-5)

Here we see the word "God" appear twice. In both instances, it is the Hebrew word "elohiym" or the PLURAL form of "God". We also see how this Godhead or Trinity is said to be "one". How can Three be One? The answer isn't too complicated when one realizes that the Hebrew word "echad" that is translated as "one" in this passage means "united". Consider the "United States". The "United States" are said to be (hypocritically, in large part) "One Nation Under God". In other words, 50 states are said to be "One". Let's see how scripture states how multiples can be one.

"But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." (Mark 10:6-9)

In these words of Jesus (Who was quoting from Genesis chapter 2), we see that "twain" or two shall be one. Once again, this "oneness" is speaking about "unity".

"And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do." (Genesis 11:6)

While observing those who started to build the tower of Babel, God said:

"...the people is one..."

Here we see that a large group of people can be "one" as in "united".

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." (John 17:11)

Jesus prayed that we "may be one" as He and the Father are one. What was He praying? That we become "gods"? No. He was simply praying that we would work IN UNION with Him and the Father and in this sense we would all be one or united. Anyhow, in this sense, the Three are One. They are not all the same Person, but they always work IN UNION with each other, whether in the Old Testament or New Testament.

2. If all three members of the trinity are made of the same substance, how do they differ?

I'm going to start answering your question from a pre-incarnation point of view and then I'll answer it from a post-incarnation point of view. In other words, I'll first answer it by describing the Trinity BEFORE Jesus' incarnation and then seek to describe it AFTER Jesus' incarnation. Prior to Jesus' incarnation, there were no differences.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." (John 1:1-3)

Prior to His incarnation (He's also referred to this way at His return in Revelation 19:13), Jesus was referred to as "the Word". He was with God in the beginning and He WAS GOD in the beginning. In fact, scripture makes it abundantly clear that He is the One Who did all of the creating.

"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." (John 1:3)

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." (Colossians 1:15-17)

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds..." (Hebrews 1:1-2)

"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands..." (Hebrews 1:10)

Jesus, although He seemingly wasn't called by that name at the time, was there in the beginning and He created all things. Prior to His incarnation, He was FULLY GOD and part of a Triune Godhead or part of what we commonly call the Trinity. From this point on, I will seek to address some of those "differences" that occur AFTER His incarnation or from the time that "the Word was made flesh".

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:1)

1. If Jesus is God and God does not change, how did Jesus have a different consciousness and perspective while on Earth from the Father?

4. If Jesus is God, why did he pray to God?

5. If Jesus is God, why does he refer to the Father as greater than himself? If both the Father and Son are wholly God, how can one be greater and one lesser?

6. If Jesus is God, why does he refer to himself as the Son of man?

8. If both Jesus and the Father are God, how does his will differ from the Father's?

I'm going to try, by the grace of God, to answer all of these questions together. From God's (I'm specifically speaking about the Father here) vantage point, there are really only two men or two Adams.

"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven." (I Corinthians 15:45-47)

In the midst of a discourse on the resurrection that awaits the believers, the apostle Paul referred to Adam (as in Adam and Eve) as "the first man Adam" and "the first man". Paul also referred to Jesus Christ as "the last Adam" and "the second man". The SECOND man??? Haven't there been billions of people who have walked the earth since Adam? How then can God rightly call Jesus Christ "the SECOND man". Allow me to explain.

"And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him." (Hebrews 7:9-10)

In the epistle to the Hebrews, the writer (probably Paul) seeks to make a distinction between the Old Testament Levitical priesthood and the Priesthood of Christ. The Levitical priesthood came from Levi who was one of the twelve sons of Jacob/Israel (God changed Jacob's name to Israel and his twelve sons became known as the twelve tribes of Israel). Abraham begat Isaac. Isaac begat Jacob. Jacob begat Levi from whom came the Levitical priesthood. At one point, LONG BEFORE LEVI WAS BORN, Abraham paid tithes to a priest named Mechisedec. Although Levi wasn't born until generations later, Levi was accounted to have "payed tithes in Abraham...for he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him". In other words, Levi was acccounted to have done something before he was even born simply because he was "seed" in Abraham's loins at the time or a future descendant of Abraham. Keep this in mind as you read the following:

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (I Corinthians 15:22)

IN ADAM all die. I would heartily suggest to you that, in the same manner in which Levi was accounted to have done something before he was even born simply because he was "seed" in Abraham's loins at the time, we, too, were accounted as sinning "in Adam" because we were "seed" in his loins at the time of the fall or we are all Adam's future descendants. With this in mind, let's look at "the first man Adam" and "the second man" Who "is the Lord from heaven":

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offense, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more by the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ,) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." (Romans 5:12-19)

Here we read that Adam was "the figure of him that was to come". In other words, when God created Adam in His image and in His likeness, He knew that one day "the second man" or "the last Adam" would come to earth ("the Word was made flesh") to atone for the sins of "the first man Adam". Through "the first man Adam", sin entered into this world and death and judgment as the result of sin. As we already read, "in Adam all die". As "the first man Adam's" offspring, we will all ultimately die and face judgment. Thankfully, due to the sacrifice of "the last Adam", Jesus Christ, we can all be "made alive" and have our sins forgiven and be granted the gift of everlasting life. As I said earlier, prior to His incarnation, Jesus was FULLY GOD. Now, since His incarnation, He is what is pretty commonly referred to as "the God-Man"...One Who is still FULLY GOD, but also FULLY MAN. Why did "the Word" have to be "made flesh" or why did One Person of the Godhead have to come to earth and be "veiled in flesh" as "the last Adam"?

"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead." (I Corinthians 15:21)

The problem originated with "the first man Adam" and it was only going to be fixed by "the second man" Who "is the Lord from heaven". Since by MAN came death, by MAN was also going to come the resurrection of the dead.

"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." (Isaiah 7:14)

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." (Isaiah 9:6)

A son was given to us and this son was/is "The mighty God" and "Immanuel" which means "God with us".

CONTINUED IN NEXT POST...

 

[Ih8s8n]

"Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived of her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." (Matthew 1:18-23)

The Second Person of the Godhead came to earth in the form of a son and was conceived in the womb of a virgin. This is extremely important because this means that He did not enter this world as the "seed" of the fallen "first man Adam", but rather that He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and yet entered into the world as "the second man" or "the last Adam". Entering this world as a man (He still was/is "Emmanuel...God with us"), He was then able to undo what "the first man Adam" had done by perfectly fulfilling God's Law and then willfully offering Himself as "the scapegoat" or as "the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world"(John 1:29) by dying in the place of fallen man(-kind).

"But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons." (Galatians 4:4-5)

1. If Jesus is God and God does not change, how did Jesus have a different consciousness and perspective while on Earth from the Father?

Because as "Emmanuel...God with us", the son that was given unto us, Jesus became both the Son of God and the Son of man. In other words, in His incarnation, Jesus had both natures, that of God and man, in order to function as the only true Mediator between God and man...One Who perfectly understands both. As the Son of God/Son of man, Jesus lived and functioned as a man Who was empowered by the Holy Spirit. He never lost His status as God, though. He was and always will be "Emmanuel...God with us".

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men..." (Philippians 2:5-7)

Jesus is equal with God, but has made himself of no reputation by coming in the form of man. It's sort of like a King Who removes His Kingly robes and walks as a commoner amongst His people. In essence, this is what Jesus has done.

4. If Jesus is God, why did he pray to God?

Again, in His role as the Son of God/the Son of man or "the last Adam", Jesus functioned as a man Who was empowered by the Holy Spirit. As such, like us, He needed to pray to the Father.

5. If Jesus is God, why does he refer to the Father as greater than himself? If both the Father and Son are wholly God, how can one be greater and one lesser?

Because Jesus has willingly humbled Himself in order to become our merciful and faithful High Priest.

"For it became him, for whom are all things, and by are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the chldren which God hath given me. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted." (Hebrews 2:10-18)

In order to bring us back to the Father as children of God, Jesus became a Son of God Himself. He took upon flesh and was tempted in all ways as we are, yet without sin. He knows YOUR trials and tribulations. He now sits at the right hand of the Father in heaven and desires to be YOUR "merciful and faithful high priest". Nothing but Jesus' sacrifice (and I hope that you're beginning to understand just how great a sacrifice it was) can reconcile you back to the Father. NOTHING. In His humbled position, Jesus will ALWAYS be subservient to the Father to some extent.

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." (I Corinthians 15:24-28)

In a nutshell, God's timetable is as follows. There is coming a Millennial reign of Christ. After this, according to the book of Revelation, Satan will be loosed for a short season and there will be one final rebellion against God. Then comes the Great White Throne Judgment and death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire along with those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life. At this point, the last enemy of death will be fully defeated and Jesus will deliver up the kingdom to the Father and "the Son also himself shall be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all". In other words, Jesus will have a subservient relationship to the Father throughout all of eternity. This He did WILLINGLY in order to reconcile YOU back to the Father as YOUR "merciful and faithful high priest". Don't reject His gracious offer to YOU. There are no other genuine offers of redemption out there.

6. If Jesus is God, why does he refer to himself as the Son of man?

Hopefully, I've already answered this question. In case that I haven't, I'll add the following:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man." (John 5:25-27)

This verse certainly seems to indicate that part of the reason why Jesus has been given authority as our ultimate Judge is "because he is the Son of man". In other words, having walked this earth as a man Himself, He can now rightly Judge us.

8. If both Jesus and the Father are God, how does his will differ from the Father's?

Thankfully, it doesn't. As the Son of God/Son of man, Jesus willfully submitted His will unto the Father's will...even when it led to "the cup" that He had to drink on our behalf.

7. If Jesus is God, and God is uncreated, why does Jesus have the title Firstborn of all Creation?

Let's look at that verse. First of all, I believe that you meant to say "the firstborn of every creature"(Colossians 1:15). Please correct me if I'm wrong or if you're simply using another translation other than the King James version. In either case, here's the verse, in context:

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." (Colossians 1:15-18)

IN CONTEXT, Paul is simply stating that Jesus is THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD. Paul states the same elsewhere, when he says:

"If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." (I Corinthians 15:19-23)

Here, Paul twice refers to Christ as "the firstfruits" or "the firstfruits of them that slept" or "the firstborn from the dead". If you do a study on the Old Testament Feasts of the Lord, then you will recognize that both the Springtime and Falltime Feasts were "types" or "shadows" or foreshadowings of things that would later be fulfilled in/by Christ. In other words, Christ perfectly fulfilled the "types" of the Springtime Feasts in/at His first coming and He will also perfectly fulfill the "types" of the Falltime Feasts in/at His second coming. Briefly, He perfectly fulfilled the Springtime Feasts ON THEIR EXACT CALENDAR DAYS in the following manner:

Passover - Jesus was sacrificed as the True Passover Lamb on the Jewish Feast of Passover

Unleavened Bread - Those who have truly partaken of THIS "Lamb" must now remove all "leaven" or anything that "puffs up" or "rises up against God" from their lives by the power of God's indwelling Spirit.

Firstfruits - Jesus was raised from the dead or became "the firstfruits of them that slept" on the Jewish Feast of Firstfruits.

Pentecost - The Holy Spirit was poured out on the Feast of Pentecost as recorded in Acts chapter 2.

If you look back at the verse from Colossians chapter 1 that I recently cited, then you will see that Jesus is "the firstborn from the dead, THAT IN ALL THINGS HE MIGHT HAVE THE PREEMINENCE". In other words, Jesus not only had/has the preeminence in that He existed from the beginning and created all things, but He also has the preeminence in that He is "the firstborn from the dead". John, in the book of Revelation, uses similar terminology to describe Jesus, when he says:

"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten from the dead..." (Revelation 1:5)

Jesus is not only "the first begotten from the dead", but it is also at this point, AT THE TIME WHEN JESUS WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD, that He became "the only begotten Son".

"And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee." (Acts 13:32-33)

On what day was Jesus begotten? "THIS DAY"...the same day that God raised Him from the dead as it is also written in the second Psalm.

"Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us." (Psalm 2:1-3)

According to Acts chapter 4, the first part of this Psalm refers to the time when Jesus was handed over to be crucified.

"Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered togethered against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." (Acts 4:25-28)

God's response to this vanity?

"He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." (Psalm 2:4-7)

God laughs at sinful man's vain attempts to thwart His eternal plan and says, "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion". In other words, in spite of the crucifixion, God raised Jesus Christ from the dead and He will still reign as God's King in Zion or in Jerusalem at His second coming. Again, as we already read in Acts chapter 13, it was on "THIS DAY" when Jesus was "begotten"...on the VERY DAY that God raised Him from the dead and He became "the first begotten from the dead". Also, when we read "The LORD said unto ME", this "me" is none other than Jesus Christ. In other words, here is but one example of the Father and the Son talking to each other IN THE OLD TESTAMENT. As I said before, the doctrine of the Trinity didn't originate with the New Testament...it originated with the Old Testament. Anyhow, here, the Father is clearly telling the Son that He will one day raise Him from the dead. Keep this in mind as you read the following words of Jesus:

"Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." (John 10:17-18)

Where exactly did Jesus "receive commandment from His Father" to "take it again" or to be raised from the dead? Well, no doubt, Psalm 2 is one such place. Let's finish reading the second Psalm:

CONTINUED IN NEXT POST...

 

[Ih8s8n]

"Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel." (Psalm 2:8-9)

Here, the Father tells the Son to ask Him for the heathen as His inheritance and the uttermost parts of the earth as His possession. As I stated earlier from I Corinthians chapter 15, Christ will reign at His return until He has put down all rule and authority and power and then He will deliver the kingdom to His Father. With all of these things in mind, what should our response be? I'll let the remainder of the second Psalm answer that question for us:

"Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him." (Psalm 2:10-12)

I hope that this rather lengthy response not only answers your questions, but also provokes YOU to put YOUR trust in Him. There is a coming day of God's wrath and YOU need to be prepared for that day. May God grant you wisdom as you continue to seek Him.

"How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation..." (Hebrews 2:3)

 

[Bro_Sam]

1. If Jesus is God and God does not change, how did Jesus have a different consciousness and perspective while on Earth from the Father?

Jesus is not the Father so your question is illogical.

2. If all three members of the trinity are made of the same substance, how do they differ?

By role.

3. If the trinity is central to the dogma of Christian theology, why is it not explicitly stated in the New Testament?

It is.

4. If Jesus is God, why did he pray to God?

Because Jesus took on a human nature and, in His human nature, submitted to God.

5. If Jesus is God, why does he refer to the Father as greater than himself? If both the Father and Son are wholly God, how can one be greater and one lesser?

See above.

6. If Jesus is God, why does he refer to himself as the Son of man?

Because He is the Son of Man. By your own logic, if Jesus is not God, then why does He refer to Himself as the Son of God?

7. If Jesus is God, and God is uncreated, why does Jesus have the title Firstborn of All Creation?

Because "firstborn" refers to authority, not to physical birth.

8. If both Jesus and the Father are God, how does his will differ from the Father's?

It doesn't.

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. Mark 10:18

Yep.

 

[razeontherock]

Hi there! I'm going to give you some different answers just to expose you to a different perspective that I hope may round out your understanding.

Is God a trinity, and is Jesus God?

None of this this should be troubling you in terms of your Faith. Seeking Him, to know Him more? Sure.

Jesus is a man, Christ is an office, and Lord is a title. Christ existed before Jesus was born, and Jesus lived and died before becoming Lord of all.

1. If Jesus is God and God does not change, how did Jesus have a different consciousness and perspective while on Earth from the Father?

He was still fully human, which G-d had never been.

2. If all three members of the trinity are made of the same substance, how do they differ?

Ya, I see what you did there. Thinking in terms of G-d being "made of substance" is going to present difficulties. May I suggest dismissing that line of thought, even if it leaves much unknown?

3. If the trinity is central to the dogma of Christian theology, why is it not explicitly stated in the New Testament?

Christianity has no dogma! Scripture on the topic:

"And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." I Cor 2:1-2

"If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine" John 7:17

What matters is knowing Him - personally, and that only continues in obedience. All of Scripture teaches that is 'the substance Christianity is made of,' to use a term I saw recently.

4. If Jesus is God, why did he pray to God?

Jesus had flesh, just like you. How much of His actual, personal prayer time do you suppose was specifically directed towards winning the war of the flesh vs the Spirit? I would posit 100%. (Anything else would've been a call to action, during His 3 1/2 year ministry)

8. If both Jesus and the Father are God, how does his will differ from the Father's?

They DON'T! Big point I hope people have already expounded upon in detail. This may be our greatest revelation into the Spirit realm - OF ALL TIME.

 

[Harry3142]

The subject of the interrelationship of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit needs to be recognized from Scripture, rather than from conjecture. Scripture tells us that Jesus is reigning now, but his reign as Jesus will come to an end:

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. (I Corinthians 15:20-28,NIV)

Jesus himself warned his disciples that there is an 'unforgivable sin':

"And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." (The Gospel of St. Matthew 12:31-32,NIV)

Jesus also described God himself as being a Spirit (John 4:24). Is it a coincidence that Jesus warns us not to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, and also describes God as a Spirit? I think not.

When we read the words 'son' and 'father', what are we seeing? Are we seeing beings, or are we seeing titles? We're seeing titles. The same man can be a son, a brother, a father, an uncle, a cousin, and have many other titles. But he is still only 1 person.

But when we refer to the Spirit, then we are approaching the 'Holy of Holies'. Jesus warned us to show especial reverence toward the Holy Spirit for a reason. When we refer to the Holy Spirit, we are referring to the very essence of God's own being.

God has manifested himself to us as Father, as Son, and as Holy Spirit. Why? Because it was necessary in order to save us from the consequences of our own weakness and stupidity. But when we refer to 'Son' and 'Father' we are referring to the ways in which God has made himself known to us. But when we refer to the Holy Spirit, we are then referring to the very core of God's being.

 

[Bryanfromiowa]

fully god fully human, a concept that is i think beyond our understanding in this life anyway

 

[Emmy]

Dear CiananIgnatius. God is Spirit, Holy Spirit. The Trinity are three persons/beings: God-Father, God-Son, and God Holy-Spirit. All three are working together to redeem Mankind. God-Father who made us, God-Son who came to Earth, born of woman, to die for us, and show us God as He really is: a loving Heavenly Father who wants us back again, and God Holy-Spirit who is in the world now, to carry on the work which Jesus started, teaching and helping us to become God`s loving sons and daughters again. While Jesus lived amongst us, He was, what He called Himself, Jesus son of man. Although Jesus was without sin or faults of any kind, He was son of man, and did not know the Father`s mind. When God raised Jesus he was God-Son again and is our Intercessor now, He is with God and pleads our prayers to God. The Trinity, three persons/beings, but ONE HOLY GOD, all working together to save Mankind. I say this humbly and with love. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[Ih8s8n]

God-Father who made us...

CiananIgnatius: With all due respect to Emmy, as the verses that I already cited (and others like them) plainly show, Jesus (although He probably wasn't known by that name yet) was/is the Creator. Just for the record. Thanks.

 

[ebia]

CiananIgnatius: With all due respect to Emmy, as the verses that I already cited (and others like them) plainly show, Jesus (although He probably wasn't known by that name yet) was/is the Creator. Just for the record. Thanks.

The Nicene understanding is, of course, that the Father is the creator, through the Word/Son.

 

[Ih8s8n]

The Nicene understanding is, of course, that the Father is the creator, through the Word/Son.

ebia: As a general statement/warning (there's no hidden rebuke for anyone in what I'm about to say), we must be careful to never exalt any "understanding" or "creed" above God's Word, including our own. Having said this, I really have no problem with what you stated. As I've already noted, the Trinity is "one" or "united", so They never really act independently of each Other anyway. Take care.