The Trinity... .

[David333]

I know it has been discussed a lot but I don't think there's a current thread and I've been reading about Nicaea and specifically Athanasius' understanding of the trinity. Am I avoiding heresy by stating that God is one in being, in essence, in existence, and yet three in modes of action...?

So, the Son is only the Son by virtue of the Father, and the Father only the Father by virtue of the Son. All that the Son is the Father is, apart from Son, and all that the Father is the Son is, apart from Father (and the same for the Spirit). We know God not in his essence (one) but in his modes of action (three: Father, Son and Spirit).

I fear I'm veering close to Sabellius... . Any thoughts...?

 

[&Abel]

this is how I think of it

the father sent forth his spirit who most likely created everything, communicated the word of god and eventually manifested himself in the flesh as jesus christ

and now the resurrected christ has sent forth his spirit(which is the same spirit that came from the father) into us having defeated death and broken the barrier of sin

the holy spirit IS the essence of god and what connects us all together(the church, christ and the father)

the father is only father in status because of the son but that says nothing of his being

the father existed before the son and only assigned himself the rank of father BECAUSE he had a son

 

[David333]

The Father existed before the Son...? So 'there was a time when the son was not' to quote Arius...?

 

[&Abel]

thats my opinion

many will disagree with that

 

[DD2008]

thats my opinion

many will disagree with that

I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, I disagree with you on this point. I believe in the trinity as defined in the Nicene Creed.

The Nicene Creed

​

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
​

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
​

Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
​

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.
​

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
​

 

[&Abel]

and what exactly does the creed tell you? and how does it differ from my explanation?

 

[Kristos]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxmKRyLdBho

 

[David333]

this is how I think of it

the father sent forth his spirit who most likely created everything, communicated the word of god and eventually manifested himself in the flesh as jesus christ

and now the resurrected christ has sent forth his spirit(which is the same spirit that came from the father) into us having defeated death and broken the barrier of sin

the holy spirit IS the essence of god and what connects us all together(the church, christ and the father)

the father is only father in status because of the son but that says nothing of his being

the father existed before the son and only assigned himself the rank of father BECAUSE he had a son

I appreciate that you took the time to help to explain this to me. I would disagree (and I think that the Church has always disagreed) that the Father existed before the Son but I'm sure that other people will try to convince you of that (hopefully in another thread!).

I'm interested in the final point you make though: that the Father only 'became' Father because of the Son. How does this relate to the being (which you call Spirit and the Nicaeans would probably call the 'ousia') of God? Is God in HIs being Father, Son, and Spirit, or only in His activity...?

 

[David333]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxmKRyLdBho

Thanks, but I prefer Jeff Buckley's version ;-)

 

[DD2008]

and what exactly does the creed tell you? and how does it differ from my explanation?

It explains the trinity. You explained something else. The trinity is one God with three distinct persons. Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

 

[Hentenza]

Mod Hat On
​

I want to direct all posters in this thread to CF's Statement of Faith located here.

CF supports the following as a statement of faith:

We worship one God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Isaiah 44:6-8; Exodus 3:15). God is three divine persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who share one essence--the Trinity (John 6:27; John 1:1, 14; Romans 8:9; Hebrews 1:2-3).

Our Lord, God and Savior, Jesus Christ, the incarnate second person of the Holy Trinity, fully God and fully man (John 1:1, 14), by the Power of the Holy Spirit was born of a Virgin (Luke 1:35) and existed before all time begotten of God the Father (John 1:2; John 1:18). He was crucified for our sins, died, was buried, resurrected on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:3-4) and is seated at the right hand of the Father (Mark 16:19). Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah (John 1:49; Matthew 16:16). His coming was foretold by the prophets of the Old Testament (Acts 3:18-23). He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead (Acts 10:42) and His Kingdom will have no end (2 Peter 1:11).

****All posts in this thread MUST conform to this standard. Thanks.****

 

[David333]

and what exactly does the creed tell you? and how does it differ from my explanation?

You said earlier that many will disagree with your explanation so you're obviously aware that it's not consistent with how the Church has usually interpreted Nicaea. Very God of very God, light from light... . It was essentially Constantinople - as a ratification of Nicaea in response to semi-Arians - who denied that the Son had a beginning... . 'Eternally begotten' is probably the key term from later in the 4th century... .

 

[David333]

Mod Hat On
​

I want to direct all posters in this thread to CF's Statement of Faith located here.


****All posts in this thread MUST conform to this standard. Thanks.****

Thanks! So can you go back to my original post and tell me if it doesn't conform to that please...?!

 

[Hentenza]

Thanks! So can you go back to my original post and tell me if it doesn't conform to that please...?!

Thanks David. Your OP looks fine since you are asking questions from an ECF perspective and asking if you are interpreting it right. That is fine.

 

[&Abel]

what I'm saying is the truth

I've proved this over and over again in many places in this forum and the only reason I'm warned is cause no one has been able to refute me

do some searching

 

[wildboar]

To describe God as three in modes of action is they type of thing Nicea was trying to combat. When Jesus prayed to the Father, He wasn't just talking to Himself or just talking another mode of His action. The Son was speaking with the Father. Despite the fact that it is impossible to fully explain we simply must accept by faith that God is one in being and three in person. All the modalist or less common tritheist schemes are more logically satisfying but they do not harmonize with the Scriptures. A god we can fully understand and explain is no god at all but a god we have created in our own image.

 

[&Abel]

please... what I'm saying perfectly syncs with scripture but I'm not gonna go through it all again just to have the thread locked and my posts ignored anyways

if you want the truth do some searching

the modern day interpretation of the trinity does not sync with most scripture

 

[&Abel]

9However, you are not (R)in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God (S)dwells in you But (T)if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10(U)If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11But if the Spirit of Him who (V)raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, (W)He who raised (X)Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies [a]through His Spirit who dwells in you.



I'll simply post this lil passage since it so perfectly sums it all up within a few sentences


I"ll let you figure it out from there because I've grown tired of explaining this to the deaf

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I know it has been discussed a lot but I don't think there's a current thread and I've been reading about Nicaea and specifically Athanasius' understanding of the trinity. Am I avoiding heresy by stating that God is one in being, in essence, in existence, and yet three in modes of action...?

So, the Son is only the Son by virtue of the Father, and the Father only the Father by virtue of the Son. All that the Son is the Father is, apart from Son, and all that the Father is the Son is, apart from Father (and the same for the Spirit). We know God not in his essence (one) but in his modes of action (three: Father, Son and Spirit).

I fear I'm veering close to Sabellius... . Any thoughts...?

We can't use the word "mode" and escape Sabellius' heresy.

I'm excited that you know who he was!

Studying heresy is a great way to learn Christianity.

Sometimes knowing what something "is not" helps us define things better.

Forgive me...

 

[jckstraw72]

drop the modes of actions part. God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit at all times -- no different modes of existence or action