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the Trinity

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skywatching

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Why do people insist that the Trinity is a true doctrine? I just don't see why or where it came from. Jesus never said He was also God. He calls God 'Father' and often went into seclusion to pray...why would he pray 'to Himself?"
I have heard this my whole life but I just can't equate Jesus with God....The HS is the Spirit that God gifts to his true followers so that I have no prob with. I just can not believe that Jesus and God are one and the same, just part of God that took human form....I think the early century churches wanted to implement this and there is no true basis for it.

Why do you beleive it?
 

BreadAlone

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The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ,[a] the Son of God."

64"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the
right hand of the Mighty One and
coming on the clouds of heaven."

They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?" He replied, "You are right in saying I am."

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not
perish but have eternal life.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already
because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son
of God and those who hear will live.

When he heard this, Jesus said, "This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God's glory so that
God's Son may be glorified through it."

what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do
you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

I just found all these yesterday; not all of them necessarily quote Jesus saying I am God's son,
but all of them imply it..but the last one takes the gold I think..
 
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Daniels

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TRINITY a word not found in Scripture, but used to express the doctrine
of the unity of God as subsisting in three distinct Persons. This word is
derived from the Gr. trias, first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168-183), or
from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220), to express this
doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God
is one, and that there is but one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60;
Isaiah 44:6; Mark 12:29, 32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct
divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum
intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus
Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and
the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.
 
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icxn

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skydreaming said:
...Jesus never said He was also God...
John 1:

1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2: He was in the beginning with God; 3: all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. 4: In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5: The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. 6: There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7: He came for testimony, to bear witness to the light, that all might believe through him. 8: He was not the light, but came to bear witness to the light. 9: The true light that enlightens every man was coming into the world. 10: He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world knew him not. 11: He came to his own home, and his own people received him not. 12: But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; 13: who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14: And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. 15: (John bore witness to him, and cried, "This was he of whom I said, `He who comes after me ranks before me, for he was before me.'") 16: And from his fulness have we all received, grace upon grace. 17: For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18: No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known...
 
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skywatching

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Bread Alone, I appreciate the references but I am not doubting that Jesus is not God's son...I am saying Jesus is not GOD himself

Icxn, That is a poetic reference by John..he also says Jesus is the Light but I dont think he meant he was going to be the world's light bulb. Jesus himself nevers tells anyone that he is also God, he repeats 'Son of Man' for a long time then admits to some as God's Son. They are one in Spirit just as I beleive in the joining of two people in marriage. Does this explain better?

I'm not trying to be mean or the negative advocate. I just want people to REALLY sit and listen to the scriptures and not a doctrine that was not invented until over a hunded years after Jesus accended.
 
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BreadAlone

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18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. 19Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also." He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.

before Abraham was, I AM!

I and the Father are one.

Sorry..forgot about these..I think the last one completely answers your question..
 
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skywatching

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OOOHH..I see..then John 1 as icxn quoted is your best bet..although I suppose you could say "Jesus didn't say that"..but then why believe any of the scriptures as he didn't physically write any of them anyways..

becuase everything of importance was written down inspried by God....and adding interpretation on assumption is not right
 
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BreadAlone

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becuase everything of importance was written down inspried by God....and adding interpretation on assumption is not right
yeah, it was..

but nevertheless, the quote from John 10:30 above were the words of Jesus..so yeah..
 
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boodle

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The Way It All Began



In the preface to Edward Gibbon's History of Christianity, we read: "If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief."

Alexander Hislop, in his TWO BABYLONS, seems to trace the various ideas of the trinity back to a common heritage. Hislop pointed out the antiquity of the theological concept of the Trinity by giving examples of pagan trinities in Siberia, Japan, and India. He noted that the recognition of the Trinity was “universal in all the ancient nations of the world”. He went so far as to say that “the supreme divinity in almost all heathen nations was triune”. While Hislop was attempting to prove that mankind has always believed in a “trinity”, he also unwittingly shows the pagan origins of the idea of a “trinity”

The trinity is noted in connection with the construction of the Tower of Babel. Diodorus Siculus, in his Bibliotheca, states that in the topmost completed story of the Tower was placed the images of three gods.

Trinitarians today may argue that the pagan trinities were completely different from the model of the Christian Trinity. But some pagan triads have structures which are surprisingly familiar. For example, the Hindu Trinity:

The conception most closely linked with Vedism and Brahmanism is that of the Hindu Trinity, the Trimurti. ‘The Absolute manifests himself in three persons, Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver, and Shiva the Destroyer’.

-Asiatic Mythology

The Egyptian triad of the sun god was “one god expressed in three persons”. He was known as the “noonday sun” (Ra), “the evening sun” (Tum), and “the dawning sun” (Khepera). The sun god reportedly said, “Lo! I am Khepera at dawn, Ra at high noon, and Tum at eventide”. He was one god in three distinct persons.

Clearly it is not correct to say that the structure of pagan trinities do not resemble the Christian Trinity.

Other ancient cultures also had Trinities to describe their Gods. In Phoenicia the trinity of gods were Ulomus, Ulosuros, and Eliun. In Greece they were Zeus, Poseidon, and Aidoneus. In Rome they were Jupiter, Neptune, and Pluto. In Babylonia and Assyria they were Anos, lllinos, and Aos. Among Celtic nations they were called Kriosan, Biosena, and Siva, and in Germanic nations they were called Thor, Wodan, and Fricco.

Historian Will Durant: "Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. . . . From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity." And in the book Egyptian Religion, Siegfried Morenz notes: "The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians . . . Three gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology."

One of the sources of the doctrine of the Trinity in Christianity is Gnosticism and Dualism.

A one-sentence description of Gnosticism is; A religion that differentiates the evil god of this world (who is identified with the God of the Old Testament) from a higher more abstract God revealed by Jesus Christ, a religion that regards this world as the creation of a series of evil archons/powers who wish to keep the human soul trapped in an evil physical body. Gnostics conjured up the idea that Christ was a spiritual being in a physical shell in order to avoid the concept of him having an "Evil Physical Body of the “Evil physical realm".

Dualism is a Greek Philosophy that takes gnosticim even farther. It teaches there are two realms, one evil and one holy. Dualists believe that only the transcendental spiritual realm of God like forces is holy. The lower natural earthly realm was considered evil and nothing good could be of that world.

When Christianity spread to the Greek thinking world it was heavily influenced by their philosophies. Many students of Greek philosophy were being saved and as such brought their concepts into the church. As is often the case some so called “scholars”, from this period forward, began to interpret scripture with preconceived ideas of a gnostic or dualistic world. From gnosticim came the concept of Jesus being a separate God from the God of the Old Testament. From Dualism came the concept that Jesus could never be fully of the natural realm or fully human. His humanity needed to be augmented in some way to avoid him being of the evil natural realm.

Dualism was contrary to Hebrew belief and culture. Hebrews thought of all creation as part of the kingdom of God. Because God was infinite they believed that God was an integral part of the physical realm and, in fact, revealed himself thru the natural world. To the Hebrews everything in the natural realm was in the presence of God and He overshadowed everyhing there.

Many early Christian leaders were influenced by Greek thinking.

Clement of Alexandria (150-213 AD), head of one of the early Christian schools, which was heavily influenced by philosophy and gnosticism, admitted that he was opposed by those who still considered philosophy “evil”. He made light of their opposition and said that they were light and “ignorant”. He denounced the “so-called orthodoxy who, like beasts which work from fear, do good works without knowing what they are doing”. But Clement, of course, knew what he was doing. He had a special gnosis (knowledge) that the ignorant “orthodox” did not possess.

Friedrich Ueberweg says that “Gnosticism was the first comprehensive attempt to construct a philosophy of Christianity”. The more flagrant gnostics, such as Cerdo, Cerinthus, Saturninus, and even Marcion, had been expelled from the church. These more flambuoyant gnostics were only the “tip of the iceberg”. There was still a large remnant in the churches, who obviously began developing some philosophical system of Christianity that would compete, so they thought, in the Gentile world.


Albrecht Ritschl (1822-89) saw the Trinity doctrine as flagrantly Hellenistic. It had corrupted the Christian message by introducing an alien "layer of metaphysical concepts, derived from the natural philosophy of the Greeks," and it had nothing to do with early Christianity.

Gnosticism and dualism had a foot in the door in the early church. Many founding fathers fought against it's beliefs and dogmas.
In the third century gnostics and their philosophy would get their greatest boost from the Emperor of Rome himself.

Constantine emperor of Rome had a problem. His kingdom was in turmoil because of strife between different religious factions. He had christians, gnostics, pagans, druids and many more. Constantine solved this problem by merging all these various factions together and forming The Holy Roman Catholic Church.

Following the example of his father and earlier 3rd-century emperors, Constantine throughout His life was a solar henotheist, believing that the Roman sun god, Sol, was the visible "manifestation" of an invisible “Highest God” {a plural God?} (summus deus), who was the principle behind the universe. Does this sound familiar? This god was thought to be the companion of the Roman emperor.

Constantine's adherence to this faith is evident from his claim of having had a vision of the sun god in 310 while in a grove of Apollo in Gaul.

In 325 AD - Constantine convenes the Council of Nicaea in order to develop a statement of faith that can unify the Catholic Church and therefore his empire. The Nicene Creed is written, declaring that "the Father and the Son are of the same substance" (homoousios). Let me point out that the substance of God is spirit therefor if Jesus is of the same substance then he was spirit and did not live in the flesh and therefor did not really die or be physically raised from the dead.

Emperor Constantine who was also the high priest of the pagan religion of the Unconquered Sun presided over this council.

According to the Encyclopedia Britannica:
"Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions and personally proposed the crucial formula expressing the relationship of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, `of one substance with the Father'."

The American Academic Encyclopedia states: "Although this was not Constantine's first attempt to reconcile factions in Christianity, it was the first time he had used the imperial office to IMPOSE a settlement." It is known that many of His former beliefs followed Him into Christianity and that those beliefs strongly influenced the Nicaea council. It is also clear that part of his motives for forming the Holy Roman Catholic Church were to unify his kingdom. It is therefor clear that the council of Nicaea had been called in part to find a way to unify the Roman Empire under a statement of Faith. This council is known for it's Nicaean Creed detailing the doctrine of the Trinity which is the first time God is officially described, in any church document or biblical manuscript, as separated into three, The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. It was there at Nicaea that the doctrine of the Trinity was rammed through in a Council that was overseen by the Emperor Constantine who, ironically enough, thought of himself as God-incarnate. (Constantine the Sun Worshiper only made an official conversion to "Christianity" on his death bed).

One of the early problems encountered by the followers of the Trinity doctrine was that of the nature of Christ. There are very clear scriptures that state that Jesus was a man. This was a problem because this was contrary to the original Trinity Doctrine that Jesus was a co-equal person of God and of the same substance. Jesus as a man also contradicted dualist who could never accept Jesus as fully human of the lower earthly realm. Future councils had the impossible task of defending the Trinity while at the same time dealing with these contradictions. Since no biblical proof could be found, their answer was to contrive the Dual Nature Doctrine, or 100% God and 100% man concept. This doctrine concludes that Jesus is fully man and Fully God at the same time.

There are no such words as Dual Nature or 100% man and 100% God in scripture. In fact the concept is conspicuously absent in any scriptural form whatsoever. Again we must ask ourslves, Where does this concept come from? Simply put these councils were hard pressed to find an answer to the contradictions found in the Trinity. With this in mind they formulated a doctrine with no scriptural proof and just applied it as truth. They went to the scriptures with this doctrine and applied scriptures out of context. By using unclear scriptures they could twist them to seem to validate their doctrine.

Since there are no clear scriptures to define this dual nature of Christ we must look elsewhere to determine it’s origin and history. This doctrine did not happen overnight, but took years to develop. The result was a cocktail of Irational and illogical thought leading to meaningless rhetoric. Let’s look at some of the history, by which this doctrine entered the teaching of the church.

Most of the primary tenants of the dual nature doctrine stem from several councils starting in 325 A. D. These councils were formed for the purpose of denouncing what was believed to be false doctrine and for instituting some central statements defining the faith. Unfortunately, as stated before, Christianity had been corrupted by Paganism and Greek philosophy and the councils reflected this influence. The Nicene council stated that Jesus was fully God in response to the Aryans who believed that Jesus was not God.

The Apollianarians Did not believe that Jesus was fully human, therefore the council of Constantinople (381 U.S.) declared he was fully human.

The Nestorianism group denied that Mary could be called the mother of God. They believed that Mary was only the mother of the human part of Jesus. The resulting belief dictated that there exists two Christ's, one divine and one human. In response to this the council of Effuses (431 A. D.) decreed That the two natures of Jesus are one and cannot be separated.


Many of those present at the Council Of Nicaea were opposed the doctrine of the Trinity. Even after the Nicene Creed, the Trinity was still hotly debated for decades and centuries. As the years passed and the power of the Catholic Church increased, no one dared argue against the established doctrines of the Church. Before long a multitude of non - scriptural practices began to emerge resulting in the dark ages and the inquisition.

If Nicaea just formalized the prevalent teaching of the church, then why all the conflicts? If it were the established teaching of the church, then you would expect people to either accept it, or not be Christians. It was not the established teaching, and when some factions, of the church, influenced by Constantine, tried to make it official, the result was major conflict. Constantine stopped the conflict by banishing those who appeased him and used his power to coerce others into adopting the doctrine. In fact Constantine had the chambers wherein the counsel met surrounded by solders to insure no one left or apposed him.

Constantine the Great unified a tottering empire, reorganized the Roman state, and set the stage for the final victory of his version of Christianity at the end of the 4th century. In one historic moment, under this ruler of non-Judeo-Christian background and with the influence of paganism and gnosticism, the traditional doctrine of the Trinity is formed.

Since the time of Constantine several councils have had the dubious task of defending the Trinity without any clear scripture evidence for support. Unfortunately, the same holds true today. The explanations of the Trinity and the dual nature have become even more confusing and less logical.

Since the Dark Ages the church has continued to come out of the darkness and lies and has sought to find more truth. When Luther began to teach justification by faith rather then by works it took a long time to come out of the traditional works mentality, but many did come out and the protestant faith was born. 700 years of reformation have followed. An unfortunate truth is that many did not come out of the darkness and have missed out on many blessings and further growth in God. In the time since Luther many who were called heritics, by the extablished doctrinal churches, have endeavored to return to the faith of the apostles that was hidden during the Dark Ages.
 
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boodle

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In the preface to Edward Gibbon's History of Christianity, we read: "If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief."

Alexander Hislop, in his TWO BABYLONS, seems to trace the various ideas of the trinity back to a common heritage. Hislop pointed out the antiquity of the theological concept of the Trinity by giving examples of pagan trinities in Siberia, Japan, and India. He noted that the recognition of the Trinity was “universal in all the ancient nations of the world”. He went so far as to say that “the supreme divinity in almost all heathen nations was triune”. While Hislop was attempting to prove that mankind has always believed in a “trinity”, he also unwittingly shows the pagan origins of the idea of a “trinity”

The trinity is noted in connection with the construction of the Tower of Babel. Diodorus Siculus, in his Bibliotheca, states that in the topmost completed story of the Tower was placed the images of three gods.

Trinitarians today may argue that the pagan trinities were completely different from the model of the Christian Trinity. But some pagan triads have structures which are surprisingly familiar. For example, the Hindu Trinity:

The conception most closely linked with Vedism and Brahmanism is that of the Hindu Trinity, the Trimurti. ‘The Absolute manifests himself in three persons, Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver, and Shiva the Destroyer’.

-Asiatic Mythology

The Egyptian triad of the sun god was “one god expressed in three persons”. He was known as the “noonday sun” (Ra), “the evening sun” (Tum), and “the dawning sun” (Khepera). The sun god reportedly said, “Lo! I am Khepera at dawn, Ra at high noon, and Tum at eventide”. He was one god in three distinct persons.

Clearly it is not correct to say that the structure of pagan trinities do not resemble the Christian Trinity.

Other ancient cultures also had Trinities to describe their Gods. In Phoenicia the trinity of gods were Ulomus, Ulosuros, and Eliun. In Greece they were Zeus, Poseidon, and Aidoneus. In Rome they were Jupiter, Neptune, and Pluto. In Babylonia and Assyria they were Anos, lllinos, and Aos. Among Celtic nations they were called Kriosan, Biosena, and Siva, and in Germanic nations they were called Thor, Wodan, and Fricco.

Historian Will Durant: "Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. . . . From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity." And in the book Egyptian Religion, Siegfried Morenz notes: "The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians . . . Three gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology."

One of the sources of the doctrine of the Trinity in Christianity is Gnosticism and Dualism.

A one-sentence description of Gnosticism is; A religion that differentiates the evil god of this world (who is identified with the God of the Old Testament) from a higher more abstract God revealed by Jesus Christ, a religion that regards this world as the creation of a series of evil archons/powers who wish to keep the human soul trapped in an evil physical body. Gnostics conjured up the idea that Christ was a spiritual being in a physical shell in order to avoid the concept of him having an "Evil Physical Body of the “Evil physical realm".

Dualism is a Greek Philosophy that takes gnosticim even farther. It teaches there are two realms, one evil and one holy. Dualists believe that only the transcendental spiritual realm of God like forces is holy. The lower natural earthly realm was considered evil and nothing good could be of that world.

When Christianity spread to the Greek thinking world it was heavily influenced by their philosophies. Many students of Greek philosophy were being saved and as such brought their concepts into the church. As is often the case some so called “scholars”, from this period forward, began to interpret scripture with preconceived ideas of a gnostic or dualistic world. From gnosticim came the concept of Jesus being a separate God from the God of the Old Testament. From Dualism came the concept that Jesus could never be fully of the natural realm or fully human. His humanity needed to be augmented in some way to avoid him being of the evil natural realm.

Dualism was contrary to Hebrew belief and culture. Hebrews thought of all creation as part of the kingdom of God. Because God was infinite they believed that God was an integral part of the physical realm and, in fact, revealed himself thru the natural world. To the Hebrews everything in the natural realm was in the presence of God and He overshadowed everyhing there.

Many early Christian leaders were influenced by Greek thinking.

Clement of Alexandria (150-213 AD), head of one of the early Christian schools, which was heavily influenced by philosophy and gnosticism, admitted that he was opposed by those who still considered philosophy “evil”. He made light of their opposition and said that they were light and “ignorant”. He denounced the “so-called orthodoxy who, like beasts which work from fear, do good works without knowing what they are doing”. But Clement, of course, knew what he was doing. He had a special gnosis (knowledge) that the ignorant “orthodox” did not possess.

Friedrich Ueberweg says that “Gnosticism was the first comprehensive attempt to construct a philosophy of Christianity”. The more flagrant gnostics, such as Cerdo, Cerinthus, Saturninus, and even Marcion, had been expelled from the church. These more flambuoyant gnostics were only the “tip of the iceberg”. There was still a large remnant in the churches, who obviously began developing some philosophical system of Christianity that would compete, so they thought, in the Gentile world.


Albrecht Ritschl (1822-89) saw the Trinity doctrine as flagrantly Hellenistic. It had corrupted the Christian message by introducing an alien "layer of metaphysical concepts, derived from the natural philosophy of the Greeks," and it had nothing to do with early Christianity.

Gnosticism and dualism had a foot in the door in the early church. Many founding fathers fought against it's beliefs and dogmas.
In the third century gnostics and their philosophy would get their greatest boost from the Emperor of Rome himself.

Constantine emperor of Rome had a problem. His kingdom was in turmoil because of strife between different religious factions. He had christians, gnostics, pagans, druids and many more. Constantine solved this problem by merging all these various factions together and forming The Holy Roman Catholic Church.

Following the example of his father and earlier 3rd-century emperors, Constantine throughout His life was a solar henotheist, believing that the Roman sun god, Sol, was the visible "manifestation" of an invisible “Highest God” {a plural God?} (summus deus), who was the principle behind the universe. Does this sound familiar? This god was thought to be the companion of the Roman emperor.

Constantine's adherence to this faith is evident from his claim of having had a vision of the sun god in 310 while in a grove of Apollo in Gaul.

In 325 AD - Constantine convenes the Council of Nicaea in order to develop a statement of faith that can unify the Catholic Church and therefore his empire. The Nicene Creed is written, declaring that "the Father and the Son are of the same substance" (homoousios). Let me point out that the substance of God is spirit therefor if Jesus is of the same substance then he was spirit and did not live in the flesh and therefor did not really die or be physically raised from the dead.

Emperor Constantine who was also the high priest of the pagan religion of the Unconquered Sun presided over this council.

According to the Encyclopedia Britannica:
"Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions and personally proposed the crucial formula expressing the relationship of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, `of one substance with the Father'."

The American Academic Encyclopedia states: "Although this was not Constantine's first attempt to reconcile factions in Christianity, it was the first time he had used the imperial office to IMPOSE a settlement." It is known that many of His former beliefs followed Him into Christianity and that those beliefs strongly influenced the Nicaea council. It is also clear that part of his motives for forming the Holy Roman Catholic Church were to unify his kingdom. It is therefor clear that the council of Nicaea had been called in part to find a way to unify the Roman Empire under a statement of Faith. This council is known for it's Nicaean Creed detailing the doctrine of the Trinity which is the first time God is officially described, in any church document or biblical manuscript, as separated into three, The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. It was there at Nicaea that the doctrine of the Trinity was rammed through in a Council that was overseen by the Emperor Constantine who, ironically enough, thought of himself as God-incarnate. (Constantine the Sun Worshiper only made an official conversion to "Christianity" on his death bed).

One of the early problems encountered by the followers of the Trinity doctrine was that of the nature of Christ. There are very clear scriptures that state that Jesus was a man. This was a problem because this was contrary to the original Trinity Doctrine that Jesus was a co-equal person of God and of the same substance. Jesus as a man also contradicted dualist who could never accept Jesus as fully human of the lower earthly realm. Future councils had the impossible task of defending the Trinity while at the same time dealing with these contradictions. Since no biblical proof could be found, their answer was to contrive the Dual Nature Doctrine, or 100% God and 100% man concept. This doctrine concludes that Jesus is fully man and Fully God at the same time.

There are no such words as Dual Nature or 100% man and 100% God in scripture. In fact the concept is conspicuously absent in any scriptural form whatsoever. Again we must ask ourslves, Where does this concept come from? Simply put these councils were hard pressed to find an answer to the contradictions found in the Trinity. With this in mind they formulated a doctrine with no scriptural proof and just applied it as truth. They went to the scriptures with this doctrine and applied scriptures out of context. By using unclear scriptures they could twist them to seem to validate their doctrine.

Since there are no clear scriptures to define this dual nature of Christ we must look elsewhere to determine it’s origin and history. This doctrine did not happen overnight, but took years to develop. The result was a cocktail of Irational and illogical thought leading to meaningless rhetoric. Let’s look at some of the history, by which this doctrine entered the teaching of the church.

Most of the primary tenants of the dual nature doctrine stem from several councils starting in 325 A. D. These councils were formed for the purpose of denouncing what was believed to be false doctrine and for instituting some central statements defining the faith. Unfortunately, as stated before, Christianity had been corrupted by Paganism and Greek philosophy and the councils reflected this influence. The Nicene council stated that Jesus was fully God in response to the Aryans who believed that Jesus was not God.

The Apollianarians Did not believe that Jesus was fully human, therefore the council of Constantinople (381 U.S.) declared he was fully human.

The Nestorianism group denied that Mary could be called the mother of God. They believed that Mary was only the mother of the human part of Jesus. The resulting belief dictated that there exists two Christ's, one divine and one human. In response to this the council of Effuses (431 A. D.) decreed That the two natures of Jesus are one and cannot be separated.


Many of those present at the Council Of Nicaea were opposed the doctrine of the Trinity. Even after the Nicene Creed, the Trinity was still hotly debated for decades and centuries. As the years passed and the power of the Catholic Church increased, no one dared argue against the established doctrines of the Church. Before long a multitude of non - scriptural practices began to emerge resulting in the dark ages and the inquisition.

If Nicaea just formalized the prevalent teaching of the church, then why all the conflicts? If it were the established teaching of the church, then you would expect people to either accept it, or not be Christians. It was not the established teaching, and when some factions, of the church, influenced by Constantine, tried to make it official, the result was major conflict. Constantine stopped the conflict by banishing those who appeased him and used his power to coerce others into adopting the doctrine. In fact Constantine had the chambers wherein the counsel met surrounded by solders to insure no one left or apposed him.

Constantine the Great unified a tottering empire, reorganized the Roman state, and set the stage for the final victory of his version of Christianity at the end of the 4th century. In one historic moment, under this ruler of non-Judeo-Christian background and with the influence of paganism and gnosticism, the traditional doctrine of the Trinity is formed.

Since the time of Constantine several councils have had the dubious task of defending the Trinity without any clear scripture evidence for support. Unfortunately, the same holds true today. The explanations of the Trinity and the dual nature have become even more confusing and less logical.

Since the Dark Ages the church has continued to come out of the darkness and lies and has sought to find more truth. When Luther began to teach justification by faith rather then by works it took a long time to come out of the traditional works mentality, but many did come out and the protestant faith was born. 700 years of reformation have followed. An unfortunate truth is that many did not come out of the darkness and have missed out on many blessings and further growth in God. In the time since Luther many who were called heritics, by the extablished doctrinal churches, have endeavored to return to the faith of the apostles that was hidden during the Dark Ages.
 
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skywatching

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yeah, it was..

but nevertheless, the quote from John 10:30 above were the words of Jesus..so yeah..

so let me ask you this
If we were married and God said we unite as One, does that make me you also?
Same pretense, diff people...Jesus was one with God in Spirit just as he says we are to our mates.

oh and please dont post long papers, pamplets or the like...I have A.D.D. and will not read it....lol
 
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skywatching

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the incessantly long post.

i have access to any encyclopedia or goggle paper just as anyone, I only want Biblical reasons why I should believe Jesus is equal to God in diety because based on the first bit of that post, it came from other sources than the Bible which is what I am getting at...thanks!
 
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BreadAlone

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That could be a good point, but there really is no indication of a "marital" relation between the Father and the son..there is between the son and the church however, but that's another topic..

And where does the Holy Spirit fit in all of this for you?? Because he does demonstrate distinct characteristics and a personality..

And how do you explain how Jesus was alive before his birth? Was he just "the Word"??

So do you believe in three gods (father, son/word, and Holy Spirit), or just two (father and son/word)??
 
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skywatching

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That could be a good point, but there really is no indication of a "marital" relation between the Father and the son..there is between the son and the church however, but that's another topic..

And where does the Holy Spirit fit in all of this for you?? Because he does demonstrate distinct characteristics and a personality..

And how do you explain how Jesus was alive before his birth? Was he just "the Word"??

So do you believe in three gods (father, son/word, and Holy Spirit), or just two (father and son/word)??

Marital or not, it is the same regardless...look at it this way. We are united as one Body of Christ by the HS, that does not make anyone of us someone other than ourselves yet we are ONE...and that is the meaning of what Jesus said. The WORD is the reference to the Truth of God and Jesus fulfilled that truth on earth. ANYWAY....

I think you missed the part where I agreed that the HS was a part of God given to us for guidance and further teaching...or maybe that was in my head and I didnt type it...LOL There is only ONE God...all others fall beneath him on the food chain...even heaven has heiarcy..Jesus, classes of angels, etc. And that is my point, you equate Jesus or any other 'person' as the same as God, you just managed to create other gods and that is a biggg no-no.

now for the absolute in the matter...Jesus never mentions the Trinity and definitly never mentioned that it needed to be something that be believe in order to get to Gods Kingdom.....so the Trinity is either right or wrong, if its right it does absolutly nothing for you....if it is wrong it could possibly send you to hell for associating God in the image of a human as Moses warned against...go check that part out on ur own.
 
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BreadAlone

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36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

Here's more Biblical quotes..
 
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GenemZ

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Why do people insist that the Trinity is a true doctrine? I just don't see why or where it came from. Jesus never said He was also God. He calls God 'Father' and often went into seclusion to pray...why would he pray 'to Himself?"
I have heard this my whole life but I just can't equate Jesus with God....The HS is the Spirit that God gifts to his true followers so that I have no prob with. I just can not believe that Jesus and God are one and the same, just part of God that took human form....I think the early century churches wanted to implement this and there is no true basis for it.

Why do you beleive it?

Because, when God the Son left Heaven to take on flesh, in order to pass all the tests required to qualify to die in our place, Jesus had to *function* as a man.

Philippians 2:6-8 (New International Version)

Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
"

This is just an intro in to a quite involved doctrinal teaching.

Philippians says that even though he was God before he became incarnate, His Deity side of the union agreed to stop manifesting all the power of Deity, so the humanity side of the union could function only as a man.

Yet! As a man who at some point was made to understand by the Father who and what he really was as God. By his choice made before entering the incarnate state, he agreed to cease functioning as God. All dependency would be on the Father for sustenance, wisdom, and truth. And, the Holy Spirit, for all manifestations of God's power.

In that way, Jesus functioning fully as man, could die for all men. The perfect substitutionary sacrifice, dying for all imperfect fallen ones.

Grace and peace, GeneZ
 
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Fireinfolding

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Jesus learned obedience

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Being made perfect "became"

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

As we put on Christ (being created in Him) here shows he was created

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Peace

Fireinfolding
 
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GenemZ

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Jesus learned obedience

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Being made perfect "became"

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

As we put on Christ (being created in Him) here shows he was created

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Peace

Fireinfolding

The Flesh Jesus took on was created. But, as the Son of God before the incarnation, He was Eternally existing.

Jesus is no longer in the "created" flesh of this earth!

1 Corinthians 15:47 (New International Version)

"The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven."
When the Son of God returned to Heaven in the ascension, he was transformed into a new type of glorious body. A body of Heaven. Eternal in nature!

1 Corinthians 15:38-40 (New International Version)

"But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another."

We are to no longer know Jesus after the flesh...

2 Corinthians 5:16 (New American Standard Bible)

"Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer."

Trouble can happen when we as believers think outside of the Word and depend upon traditions of men to conclude for us.

There are many things to yet learn and understand, to be discovered like buried treasure hidden in the Word of God, waiting for the right time to be found.
1 Corinthians 15:47 (New International Version)

"The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven."



Grace and peace, GeneZ
 
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