The Trinity

[Debi1967]

The bible also says, ". . . every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord."

Does that mean everyone will believe that Jesus is God and therefore everyone will be 'saved?'

Where is this Scirpture please so that I can see it in context....

 

[Gwenyfur]

The bible also says, ". . . every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord."

Does that mean everyone will believe that Jesus is God and therefore everyone will be 'saved?'

I believe the Bible says that in the end those who had denied Y'shua as Messiah and Savior go to hell. But before being cast into separation, they do confess that He is L-rd of all

Revelation 20:11-15
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

 

[Debi1967]

nevermind I have found it

Rom 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord: or whether we die, we die unto the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's.

Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ died and rose again: that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Rom 14:10 But thou, why judgest thou thy brother? Or thou, why dost thou despise thy brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Rom 14:11 For it is written: As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me and every tongue shall confess to God.

He is talking ONLY to those that have died unto him already IOWs those that already serve him

as we see further down in the chapter this is readily made apparent

Rom 14:23 But he that discerneth, if he eat, is condemned; because not of faith. For all that is not of faith is sin.

 

[Debi1967]

I believe the Bible says that in the end those who had denied Y'shua as Messiah and Savior go to hell. But before being cast into separation, they do confess that He is L-rd of all

Revelation 20:11-15
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

Yes it would be a little hard to deny the Divinity of the Lord when He is standing right before you and judging you would it not?

 

[Gwenyfur]

yup

 

[Debi1967]

yup

Yes and since we know that the Lord Jesus is God then we know and we know that our judgement is in His hands then we shall be confessing this to God ..... the Lord Jesus Christ ....

 

[Debi1967]

We also know some other things that are made quite apparent in the Bibel that the Lord Christ was Worshipped and that the Father allowed for this .... Yet it tells us that we are to worship only one God and that God is Jealous so therefore if this is so then if we worshipped jesus then we would be defying the Father by doing so ..... that would be illogical therefore since God is not illogical and since we are told to worship Christ then we are worshipping God and therefore God the Father and God teh Son must therefore be part of the Trinity

 

[Gwenyfur]

Yes and since we know that the Lord Jesus is God then we know and we know that our judgement is in His hands then we shall be confessing this to God ..... the Lord Jesus Christ ....

Who forgives us, calls us His own, strengthens us, and keeps us...
John 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

 

[Debi1967]

Another point that is easily derived is that Christ Himself put the Holy Spirit on the level of being God when he said that you could Blaspheme the Father and be forgiven for it and that you could Blaspheme Him and be forgiven for that but you could not Blaspheme the Holy Spirit and be forgiven for that.... He elevated the Holy Spirit right then and there to a rank that was supreme because there is only one sin that cannot be repented for and that is Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit .... He therefore completed the Tri Une nature of God ....

 

[Debi1967]

Who forgives us, calls us His own, strengthens us, and keeps us...
John 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.

Mat 28:19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.

Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

 

[Gwenyfur]

Acts 2:36-38 KJV

36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Debi1967]

Joh 14:26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.

Joh 15:26 But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me.

Joh 16:7 But I tell you the truth: it is expedient to you that I go. For if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you: but if I go, I will send him to you.

Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will convince the world of sin and of justice and of judgment.

Joh 16:9 Of sin: because they believed not in me.

Joh 16:10 And of justice: because I go to the Father: and you shall see me no longer.

Joh 16:11 And of judgment: because the prince of this world is already judged.

Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now.

Joh 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself: but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak. And the things that are to come, he shall shew you.

Isa 9:6 For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.

 

[Cleany]

I'm too lazy to type out this answer, but here is a quote from a website that answers this to a degree, maybe someone else can contribute some more 'evidence'.

If Jesus is God in flesh, then shouldn't He know what the day and hour of his return would be? After all, God knows all things. Therefore, if Jesus doesn't know all things, then He cannot be God.
This objection is most often raised by the Jehovah's Witnesses but is also echoed by the Christadelphians. It is a good question.
Jesus was both God and man. He had two natures. He was divine and human at the same time. This teaching is known as the hypostatic union; that is, the coming-together of two natures in one person. In Heb. 2:9 that Jesus was ". . . made for a little while lower than the angels . . ." Also in Phil. 2:5-8, it says that Jesus "emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men . . ." Col. 2:9 says, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form." Jesus was both God and man at the same time.
As a man, Jesus cooperated with the limitations of being a man. That is why we have verses like Luke 2:52 that says "Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men." Therefore, at this point in his ministry he could say He did not know the day nor hour of His return. It is not a denial of His being God, but a confirmation of Him being man.
Also, the logic that Jesus could not be God because He did not know all things works both ways. If we could find a scripture where Jesus does know all things, then that would prove that He was God, wouldn't it?

He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus *said to him, "Tend My sheep" (John 21:17 - NASB).
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Jesus did not correct Peter and say, "Hold on Peter, I do not know all things." He let Peter continue on with his statement that Jesus knew all things. Therefore, it must be true.
But, if we have a verse that says that Jesus did not know all things and another that says he did know all things, then isn't that a contradiction? No. It is not.
Before Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection He said the Father alone knew the day and hour of His return. It wasn't until after Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection that omniscience is attributed to Jesus. As I said before, Jesus was cooperating with the limitations of being a man and completed His ministry on this earth. He was then glorified in His resurrection. Yet, He was still a man (cf. Col. 2:9; 1 Tim. 2:5). After Jesus' resurrection, He was able to appear and disappear at will. This is not the normal ability of a man. But, it is, apparently, the normal ability of a resurrected and glorified man. Jesus was different after the resurrection. There had been a change. He was still a man and He knew all things.​

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this is my point. its like you are saying that you have to believe that to be "saved". what i am trying to say is that that stuff doesnt matter. jesus didnt say "if you love me you will write a short thesis explaining my nature" he said "if you love me you will obey my commands".

Cleany . . Thomas calls Jesus "My Lord AND MY GOD"

Jesus refers to Himself "I AM" which is the Jewish name for God. . . This is how God refers to Himself in the Old Testament.

Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham was made, I AM.
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This is BLASPHEMY for any human to refer to themselves as the "I AM" . .

Read the passage this is found in. . .read how the Jews responded to Him . . .

This shows that they understood that He was saying He was GOD HIMSELF.

So yes, it is clear from scripture that JESUS is GOD . ..

Peace to all

Romans 10:9-10 pretty much says it all.
9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Here we see we must believe Jesus is Lord.

i will admit to being frustrated by the continual use of bible quotes to "prove" something, especially given the apparent need for "citation". this is something that really needs looking at.

you are right, "it says" that exactly. but "it also says" ...

he who stands firm to the end will be saved

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved

whoever enters through me will be saved

everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved

We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved

this isnt to mention for example what "believes" means, or what "enters through me" means. or the other hundreds of quotes available about salvation.

simply put it isnt as simple as it is sometimes made out to be. people write quotes as if to say "thats what god says - end of subject". this is a very, very improper use of the bible and misinterpretation of christian traditions.

also, yet again, im not saying that jesus "isnt god". im saying that understanding of the exact nature of god is ambiguous at best and is not a part of believers faith.

"JESUS IS LORD" - there i say it and i mean it. but that doesnt mean that i subscribe to statements about his nature.

 

[Gwenyfur]

Joh 14:26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.

Joh 15:26 But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me.

Joh 16:7 But I tell you the truth: it is expedient to you that I go. For if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you: but if I go, I will send him to you.

Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will convince the world of sin and of justice and of judgment.

Joh 16:9 Of sin: because they believed not in me.

Joh 16:10 And of justice: because I go to the Father: and you shall see me no longer.

Joh 16:11 And of judgment: because the prince of this world is already judged.

Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now.

Joh 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself: but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak. And the things that are to come, he shall shew you.

Isa 9:6 For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.

Even all the way back in the beginning ephasis added is mine

Genesis 1:24
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

even at the beginning...the trinity was there

 

[Debi1967]

I'm interested to note that you say you became a believer before you 'accepted' the trinity. Mmmmmm - so you are saying it is not necessary to accept Jesus is God to be saved? Thanks.

I also became a believer before I fully accepted the Trinity..... there was a point when I had to accept that a Trinity existed simply on Faith alone until such time that I was better able to research it and grasp the premise better ....

For some people this is the way ..... For almost all people this is the way unless you are raised a Christian all your life believing in it.... which I was not. I was raised a JW.

The Trinity was hard was something that hard for me to grasp and I had a hard time coming to grips with it. I had to remember many times that it is a process that often happens in God's time.... But I want to ask you something .... I NOW KNOW the TRUTH.... therefore if I reject the TRUTH now what do you think the consequences for that would be?

See there is a difference between not having the required knowledge to make the appropriate choices and then having the knowledge to make the appropriate choices.... I cannot at this point claim ignorance can I?

Sometimes in the beginning of one;s walk in their Faith they must walk the walk blindly until such time as God sees fit that they are ready to have the knowledge.... Someitmes people are just not ready for knowledge and they need to take it in slowly... others are able to take it in faster .... I was a Christian for a long time before I fully accepted the Trinity ... in fact it was not until I became a Catholic that I was able to fully aquire the knowledge properly to accept the premise.... Until then I was taught something primary that has always helped me in my continuous growth, accept something necessary with blind Faith until such time that God determines that it is time for you to ahve the knowledge.... Once I stopped trying to force things all the time that is when the Lord blessed me heartily with knowledge that I was desiring of Him all along....

In God's time not our own

 

[Debi1967]

also, yet again, im not saying that jesus "isnt god". im saying that understanding of the exact nature of god is ambiguous at best and is not a part of believers faith.

Having Faith in God and our understanding of Him is exactly part of our belief and should be because it is God we worship so therefore we have to know whom we are worshipping ..... If you do not know who you are worshipping and you believe that God is ambigious at best then you do not have the meaning of belief and Faith required

It is everything to a Christian cleany ..... Knowing God and believing in the knowing ..... the Faith in it is everything .... it is what saves us and keeps us going through all things

 

[Debi1967]

You reject my use of Scripture cleany and I would then have to ask you why you reject God's own word to prove the one thing that you are questioning? It seems to me that you have your mind set that no matter what is thrown out here to prove the position that you will dismiss it even if it is in the positive and therefore can prove to you that your theory is wrong ..... Either you want to learn the Truth or you want to keep up with the ignorance but the point is here that the Truth has been shown to you so therefore even if you reject it then it is a choice and you can no longer claim ignorance .... Sorry for being so straightforward but there was no other wasy to say that other than straightforward

 

[mutzrein]

Exodus 3:14 - God says "I AM who I AM" - John 8:58 - Jesus says "Before Abraham was, I AM" in reference to Himself.

Exo 3:14 God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM. He said: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: HE WHO IS, hath sent me to you.

Joh 8:57 The Jews therefore said to him: Thou art not yet fifty years old. And hast thou seen Abraham?

Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham was made, I AM.

What Jesus was saying plainly was that he was the son of God - making himself equal with God - and that was the reason they killed him.

But nowdays it seems to some that being equal has been developed (almost as a mathematical equation is) into one being the same as the other. Some would say they are not.

As John the Baptist testifies, no-one has seen God but the only son of God who is at the Father's side has made him known.

And as Jesus said, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. The words I say to you are not just my own, rather it is the Father living in me who is doing His work."

Now many would agree Jesus is the one and only true son of God, conceived of God's Spirit, born of a virgin, inheriting the righteousness of God with all the attributes of perfection attributed to the Father, and without sin or blemish. To Jesus alone has the title been credited: "The lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world."

 

[Debi1967]

cleany what is it, is it that I have asked questions that are too hard for you to answer or the fact that I am a Catholic that is astounding you so much that you will not reply to my posts ..... just wondering

 

[Debi1967]

What Jesus was saying plainly was that he was the son of God - making himself equal with God - and that was the reason they killed him.

But nowdays it seems to some that being equal has been developed (almost as a mathematical equation is) into one being the same as the other. Some would say they are not.

As John the Baptist testifies, no-one has seen God but the only son of God who is at the Father's side has made him known.

And as Jesus said, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. The words I say to you are not just my own, rather it is the Father living in me who is doing His work."

Now many would agree Jesus is the one and only true son of God, conceived of God's Spirit, born of a virgin, inheriting the righteousness of God with all the attributes of perfection attributed to the Father, and without sin or blemish. To Jesus alone has the title been credited: "The lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world."

OK here is the all important question......

do you believe this

The Trinity Doctrine

The Father is 100% God
The Son is 100% God
the Holy Spirit is 100% God

They are all co-equal, co-exist, co-powerful, all three are distinct persons of the Same God that makes up the Supreme being that is 100% God ....

this is the Trinity Doctrine

do you believe this?

This is a simply yes or no answer