The Trinity

[Scholar in training]

Nope, I am 100% positive that if a person (by God's grace) puts their faith in Jesus of Nazareth then they will attain salvation. I can't see Jesus rejecting a person who puts their faith in what He did on the Cross because they reject the opinions of an early church council. The opinions of chuch councils are not binding

You should be aware that without the Ecumenical Councils that affirmed the Apostolic truth about Jesus' person, essence, natures, etc., we might not be here talking about Jesus' nature in the first place. You do not seem to realize the importance these Councils played in upholding the Christian faith and the doctrine of the living God -- they are to be taken no more lightly than the General Council that Paul attended, as recorded in Acts 15 and Galatians 3.

If the truth about who God is means anything to you.

 

[Peaceful Dove]

"Fully God"? Apparently it is "necessary" to believe that about Jesus to be a Christian, but why? And what does it mean anyway, does anyone actually understand it?

I do not fully understand it. I understand what the Lord has revealed to me.
That is enough for me. That is truly enough.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Diane I hope you will read through this fully before responding, and to do so a couple of times.

Just so you know that is a really poor example.

1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 = 1 too.

I agree.

Anyway, I think this discussion would go in the Open to All Members section of the forum.

I haven't done any soul searching about the Trinity or the nature of Jesus in this thread Debi

Actually, I think you have too . . . . and you are opening pandora's box by saying that the Trinity is an optional belief, that it is mere man's mere opinion rather than being divinely revealed truth supported by scripture.

This undermines all of Christianity and what sets Christianity apart from psuedo-christian cults and sects that preach a different gospel instead of the One of our Lord Jesus Christ.


What debi said was very astute . . this is not the place to cause question of the Trinity doctrine . . to say that it is optional belief is to deny the whole basis of this section of CF.


The one thing that sets this section of CF apart from the UNorthodox section is the belief in the Trinity and the contents of the NICENE Creed. To say or intimate that they are optional and simply OPINION instead of DOCTRINE found in the bible is to say there is no foundation for distinguishing between those who believe and those who don't . . for this opens pandora's box.

There are people very weak in their faith who read threads in GT . . they come here expecting that those who post here believe the contents of the Nicene Creed (since that is a requirement to post here) and will not present those doctrines as anything but the real McCoy . . DOCTRINES, rather than mere oinions of man.

If one is presenting the Trinity as the OPINION of mere men rather than the DIVINELY REVEALED TRUTH found in the bible, then one is laying a stumbling block before those who are weak in this area of their faith in an area of CF where the belief in the Trinity is supposed to be held to as DIVINELY REVEALED TRUTH since it is "found in the bible" and the bible is DIVINELY REVEALED TRUTH.




THIS is what you are coming agaainst here with comments such as these regarding the Nicene Creed and the Trinity

I very firmly disagree. The opinions of men are not binding

-------------------------------------
​

(TLF: Part of what was given by word, ie verbally taught by the apostles, is the doctrine of the Trinity. )​

That is an opinion of a church council, which is not binding on anyone.

---------------------------------------
​

(TLF: But the truth of the Trinity has been handed down to us by the Church and is supported in scripture,)


​

D_W: Whether or not the Trinity can be supported by Scripture is a matter of opinion.


​

This is your personal opinion Diane. However, expressing it here can be damaging to the faith of another who comes here expecting to have safe place where the nature of God, the doctrine of the TRINITY and other basic doctrines contained in the Nicene Creed are recogized and protected by the participants as being DIVINELY REVEALED TRUTH found in the bible and NOT to have this challenged by statements "of fact" like those above relegating them to the status of "mere opinion".


Honestly, such discussions should not be happening in GT.


They are either DIVINEY REVEALED TRUTHS or they are not . .


They are either IN THE BIBLE or they are not.


Which are they?

Nope, I am 100% positive that if a person (by God's grace) puts their faith in Jesus of Nazareth then they will attain salvation.

So Mormons do not need the Gospel of Salvation shared with them?

Jehovah Witnesses do not need the Gospel of Salvation shared with them?

Whoever believes in Jesus of Nazareth, no matter how flawed that belief is, will be saved?

What about those who don't believe in water baptism?




The scripture say "He who believes AND IS BAPTIZED will be saved" . . NOT just whosoever believes in Jesus of Nazareth.

(Mar 16:16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.



​

So now we have the very words of Chrsit contradicting you Diane.


So why are you going against Christ Himself?


Or are you simply stating that God holds us accountable to the truth we know?

That can make it seems as though EVERYTHING is optional then . . but this is only HALF of the truth . . it is not the whole truth.



It goes beyond just this . . . God also holds us accountable for the truth we DON'T know if we could have overcome our ignoranceBUT CHOSE NOT TO.

That's pretty heavy.

That's REALLY heavy in fact!


Our hearts are so wicked and exceedingly deceitful that they can convince us that our ignorance is real and unfeigned, that we don't really have a reason to be concerned with a particular Truth, and if we really don't know it is true, then God will understand, and go our way thinking we don't have to persevere in the TRUTH, we don't have to pursue the TRUTH, like the PEARL OF GREAT PRICE . . . Our hearts can deceived us into becoming COMPLACENT!

THEN we are sinning against God by being PRESUMPTUOUS! By PRESUMING it really doesn't matter, God will understand . . .


Such an attitude PRESUMES UPON the Grace of God!



Look at what the bible has to say about the sin of presumption:

"But the soul that doeth aught presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the Lord; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people." Num. 15:30.


"But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die." Deut. 18:20

"But they presumed to go up unto the hilltop: nevertheless the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and Moses departed not out of the camp, Then the Amalekites came down, and the Canaanites which dwelt in that hill, and smote them, and discomfited them, even unto Hormah." Num. 14:44, 45

​

Why does the Psalmist say this?

"Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me; then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression." Ps. 19:13.

​

One can sin by presuming upon God's Grace.


It is indeed a presumption on God's Grace to believe that one can be saved even though they neglect persevering to the end, which includes the pursuit of Truth and standing fast and holding to it.

The ALL Truth was given to the Apostles for a REASON Diane . . .


And it was NOT for us to be cavalier about it and say or imply truths like the Trinity are OPTIONAL.




We are commanded to STAND FAST AND HOLD TO the traditions .. the DIVINELY REVEALED TRUTHS handed down by word and scripture. the ALL Truth handed down by the Apostles themselves.

(2Th 2:15) Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.



​

Jesus commands us to persevere to the end, promising that those who do will be saved.

Mat 10:22 And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.



​

How can one PERSEVERE to the end if they do not STAND FAST AND HOLD TO the traditions taught?



TRUTH is NOT optional!



If it is in our power to overcome our ignorance of the Truth, and we CHOOSE NOT TO, God will hold us accountable!

I can't see Jesus rejecting a person who puts their faith in what He did on the Cross because they reject the opinions of an early church council. The opinions of chuch councils are not binding

Diane, this is simply your personal opinion . . Jehovah's witnesses can't see God being a TRINITY either . . that doesn't make them right . . .


And again . . . here you are stating your personal opinion relegating the DIVINELY REVEALED TRUTHS PROTECTED BY Church Councils to the realm of mere "opinion" .. .

Sorry Diane . . . If the decisions of the Church Councils are simply "opinions", then so is the CANON OF SCRIPTURE you call "The Bible" . . .

That beccomes simply the mere "opinion" of the councils as well . . .


And then you have NO Objective Basis for doctrine at all that is anything more than mere "opinion" . . .


Then you have NO Absolutes . . . NO Divinely Revealed Truth that you can point to with any assurance as being something more than simply the "opinions" of Church Councils .. .


You have really opened up Pandora's box . ..



I hope you will read this post several times before responding and really consider what I have shared . . .

Agreed.

DIANE

That path is TRUTH Diane . . . . TRUTH leads to eternal life . . . .

And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32


​

How can you be saved if you are not set free?


What makes you free?



The TRUTH!






Peace to all

 

[Polycarp1]

Are you kidding me polcorp1 that did nothing to help me and will do nothing to help the poster I am trying to help either .....

Did you note the Mod note in this thread, I am trying to help this member to realize something and that did not help in your attempt to discredit me at this point ......

This whole thread is promoting something that is opposite to what is required as to being a poster in the Christian Only section ..... It is not required that you take the creed it is only required that you agree with it's contents .... That would mean that people here have to be trinitarian .....

It becomes rather disconcerting when all of the sudden you are taking up for Jehovah's Witnesses in this section of the board ...

Now it is either canonical or it is not and as I have pointed out even the KING JAMES VERSION of the Bible has chosen to use it as canonical ..... that in it itself should say something ...

Well, "Debbie," you should explain to your co-religionist who uses St. Therese of Lisieux's name that the Truth only matters if it supports your argument, then. Because what I posted was the reason why some modern Bibles, including Catholic ones, put that passage that you were using your argument about as a footnote instead of in the text. And I was fairly confident somebody would take you to task on it. Also, I made it very clear that it's part of the canon of Scripture; the only reason it's relegated to footnote status is that modern scholars, including Catholic Biblical scholars like Bruce Vawter, C.M., and the translators of the Jerusalem Bible, have all defined it as not part of the original text, though included in the text as canonized. And I am not doing it to discredit a thing you're saying, but in the service of the Truth about Scripture. And it's "Debbie" because you can't be bothered to spell the name of my patron saint which I use as a screenname here accurately, so I return your courtesy with its equal.

I give up on trying to post in General Heresies; everyone has their own agenda and is not interested in what God may have to say to them through the words of anyone else, anyway. With vanishingly few exceptions.

 

[Debi1967]

And it's "Debbie" because you can't be bothered to spell the name of my patron saint which I use as a screenname here accurately, so I return your courtesy with its equal.

Actually I am named after DEBORAH in the BIBLE .... that is the Given name that my mother Patricia who likes to be called Pat for short named me after ....

On top of that my full name at baptism was Deborah Marie is there anything else you need to know .... How I choose to shorten my name of Deborah is my personal choice and has nothing to do with besmirching anyone .... Nor would it have to do with Besmirching a Saint of all people .....

You though have chosen although you talk a good game about being so calm and nice to people, have just bit real hard just to see how hard I would bite back ....

Now you have seen .... Happy????? I do not really care what you think how does that drive you ????? And the reason I stay in General theology is so that misconceptions can be corrected instead of trying to further them ....

If it is canonical then my point was made and you coming in to make the point that had not already been made yet was only bringing into a discussion something that might never have been brought into a discussion in the first place if you had left it alone .....

In Christ


DEBI

 

[mutzrein]

John 8:24, we will die in our sins if we will not believe in the claims of Jesus about himself.

so i say yes!!!!

Fair enough. And I know there is weight of numbers on the side that says this. Where is it that Jesus says he is God? - for arguments sake of course.

 

[Cleany]

No, as I stated earlier the problem is that you do not think they are "clear-cut" at all. You think it is impossible to know the truth. Yet if it is impossible to know the truth, then how can we know anything? What does it mean "to know" something? Your own beliefs are self-refuting, they are unfalsifiable.

some things are worth obsessing about, others are not.

What makes this belief different than a belief in heaven, hell, or the Trinity?

evidence, usefulness, helpfulness. never seen anyone fed or healed by a doctrine.

No, you do not believe that Jesus is Lord. No one worships someone who is only Man. To do that is blasphemy.

you are being extremist. when did i ever say jesus was "only man"?

The same mush you posted earlier without substantiation.

Obfuscation.

love you too.

 

[mutzrein]

We don't know who will or wil not be saved if they are not Christian . . .

But believing that Jesus is God is the core doctrine of Christianity.

Is this something you have difficulty with believing? Is this something you want to believe but have a hard time belieivng it? Or is it something you reject?

Peace to all

Yes I realise that it is a core doctrine but that is not what I was asking. It seems there are some who say that if one does not believe that Jesus is God, then they cannot be saved. Jesus said that there is only one way that a man (or woman) can see the kingdom of God - they must be born again. So I would have to conclude therefore that these same people would say that anyone who did not believe that Jesus was God, could not be born again. Would you agree?

 

[Cleany]

what is happening in this post seems to be typical of christianity as i find it commonly, certainly the more fundementalist kind.

the focus for people's faith seems to be in ideas about jesus, doctrines about jesus, and biblical statements about jesus, but not jesus himself.

not only that but also the focus is on words, not people. on believing in statements and doctrine, not doing things and helping people. this is just the kind of think that jesus spent most of his ministry trying to counter (source:the bible).

it is frustrating to see "proofs" for "the trinity" from the bible. please stand back. is it that important to understand the exact nature of jesus? even worse, if it is, then why not subject it to some real scrutiny, rather than letting "proof" be a set of statements in the bible.

what i am trying to say is that it isnt that important. do you really think that jesus looks down and is pleased with us because we argue enlessly about the "nature" of him, while ignoring those in need? some things are not that important!

so that is what i am trying to say, it doesnt really make sense, and it is not necessary to believe some abstract idea without question to be a christian. i just wish people would stand back from their apparent obsessiveness with this and get some perspective.

to reiterate 2 things. im not saying "the trinity" isnt true, im saying that to say that jesus is "fully god" doesnt really make sense.

and before anyone wets themselves then here is a passage from the bible:

Mark 13:32

No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

now if anyone really wants to debate this seriously without firing long distance bible quotes then answer this simple question: if jesus was fully god, how come he didn't know?

 

[thereselittleflower]

.

 

[mutzrein]

When i was first a believer i didn't see how the Trinity was One God, but with reading the Bible, i did see He is. At first i didn't believe the wrathful God of the Old Testament had anything to do with the New Testament. I heard people say that they were the same, but i had to see this for myself, and God showed me through His Written Word, that yes there is Trinity, and yes the Bible does fit together.

If you put the word 'spirit' in a Bible search engine, you will see that sometimes when it says Spirit, it is talking about the Father, sometimes the Son, and sometimes the Holy Ghost.

If you don't stick with the Trinity belief, you might find yourself in a Mormon like faith, and ya know that's not good.

I'm interested to note that you say you became a believer before you 'accepted' the trinity. Mmmmmm - so you are saying it is not necessary to accept Jesus is God to be saved? Thanks.

 

[Jig]

Mark 13:32
now if anyone really wants to debate this seriously without firing long distance bible quotes then answer this simple question: if jesus was fully god, how come he didn't know?

I'm too lazy to type out this answer, but here is a quote from a website that answers this to a degree, maybe someone else can contribute some more 'evidence'.

If Jesus is God in flesh, then shouldn't He know what the day and hour of his return would be? After all, God knows all things. Therefore, if Jesus doesn't know all things, then He cannot be God.
This objection is most often raised by the Jehovah's Witnesses but is also echoed by the Christadelphians. It is a good question.
Jesus was both God and man. He had two natures. He was divine and human at the same time. This teaching is known as the hypostatic union; that is, the coming-together of two natures in one person. In Heb. 2:9 that Jesus was ". . . made for a little while lower than the angels . . ." Also in Phil. 2:5-8, it says that Jesus "emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men . . ." Col. 2:9 says, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form." Jesus was both God and man at the same time.
As a man, Jesus cooperated with the limitations of being a man. That is why we have verses like Luke 2:52 that says "Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men." Therefore, at this point in his ministry he could say He did not know the day nor hour of His return. It is not a denial of His being God, but a confirmation of Him being man.
Also, the logic that Jesus could not be God because He did not know all things works both ways. If we could find a scripture where Jesus does know all things, then that would prove that He was God, wouldn't it?

He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus *said to him, "Tend My sheep" (John 21:17 - NASB).
​

Jesus did not correct Peter and say, "Hold on Peter, I do not know all things." He let Peter continue on with his statement that Jesus knew all things. Therefore, it must be true.
But, if we have a verse that says that Jesus did not know all things and another that says he did know all things, then isn't that a contradiction? No. It is not.
Before Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection He said the Father alone knew the day and hour of His return. It wasn't until after Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection that omniscience is attributed to Jesus. As I said before, Jesus was cooperating with the limitations of being a man and completed His ministry on this earth. He was then glorified in His resurrection. Yet, He was still a man (cf. Col. 2:9; 1 Tim. 2:5). After Jesus' resurrection, He was able to appear and disappear at will. This is not the normal ability of a man. But, it is, apparently, the normal ability of a resurrected and glorified man. Jesus was different after the resurrection. There had been a change. He was still a man and He knew all things.​

​

 

[Jig]

I'm interested to note that you say you became a believer before you 'accepted' the trinity. Mmmmmm - so you are saying it is not necessary to accept Jesus is God to be saved? Thanks.

Romans 10:9-10 pretty much says it all.
9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Here we see we must believe Jesus is Lord.

 

[Debi1967]

Fair enough. And I know there is weight of numbers on the side that says this. Where is it that Jesus says he is God? - for arguments sake of course.

Exodus 3:14 - God says "I AM who I AM" - John 8:58 - Jesus says "Before Abraham was, I AM" in reference to Himself.

Exo 3:14 God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM. He said: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: HE WHO IS, hath sent me to you.

Joh 8:57 The Jews therefore said to him: Thou art not yet fifty years old. And hast thou seen Abraham?

Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham was made, I AM.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Yes I realise that it is a core doctrine but that is not what I was asking. It seems there are some who say that if one does not believe that Jesus is God, then they cannot be saved.

There salvation is in question. No one can say anyone is not saved . . not even someone rejects Jesus . .for who knows what they are actualluy rejecting . . .


The question is, can one knowlingly reject the TRUTH and be saved?

Jesus is Truth Himself . . . If one knowlingly rejects TRUTH, one is rejecting Jesus!


How can one be saved if they knowlingly reject Jesus?

Jesus said that there is only one way that a man (or woman) can see the kingdom of God - they must be born again.

And? There is more . .

Being born again sets one on the path.

Jesus says those who PERSEVERE TO THE END shall be saved . .

It is not enough to be born again . . .

One has to PERSEVERE


Read what I have posted earlier with this in mind.

So I would have to conclude therefore that these same people would say that anyone who did not believe that Jesus was God, could not be born again. Would you agree?

If you believe in the wrong Jesus, can you be saved?


Peace to all

 

[thereselittleflower]

what is happening in this post seems to be typical of christianity as i find it commonly, certainly the more fundementalist kind.

the focus for people's faith seems to be in ideas about jesus, doctrines about jesus, and biblical statements about jesus, but not jesus himself.

not only that but also the focus is on words, not people. on believing in statements and doctrine, not doing things and helping people. this is just the kind of think that jesus spent most of his ministry trying to counter (source:the bible).

it is frustrating to see "proofs" for "the trinity" from the bible. please stand back. is it that important to understand the exact nature of jesus? even worse, if it is, then why not subject it to some real scrutiny, rather than letting "proof" be a set of statements in the bible.

what i am trying to say is that it isnt that important. do you really think that jesus looks down and is pleased with us because we argue enlessly about the "nature" of him, while ignoring those in need? some things are not that important!

so that is what i am trying to say, it doesnt really make sense, and it is not necessary to believe some abstract idea without question to be a christian. i just wish people would stand back from their apparent obsessiveness with this and get some perspective.

to reiterate 2 things. im not saying "the trinity" isnt true, im saying that to say that jesus is "fully god" doesnt really make sense.

and before anyone wets themselves then here is a passage from the bible:

Mark 13:32
now if anyone really wants to debate this seriously without firing long distance bible quotes then answer this simple question: if jesus was fully god, how come he didn't know?

Cleany . . Thomas calls Jesus "My Lord AND MY GOD"

Jesus refers to Himself "I AM" which is the Jewish name for God. . . This is how God refers to Himself in the Old Testament.

Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham was made, I AM.
​

This is BLASPHEMY for any human to refer to themselves as the "I AM" . .

Read the passage this is found in. . .read how the Jews responded to Him . . .

This shows that they understood that He was saying He was GOD HIMSELF.





So yes, it is clear from scripture that JESUS is GOD . ..



Peace to all

 

[thereselittleflower]

now if anyone really wants to debate this seriously without firing long distance bible quotes then answer this simple question: if jesus was fully god, how come he didn't know?

He DID know . ..


That is why He referred to Himself as the "I AM"



Peace to all

 

[thereselittleflower]

I'm interested to note that you say you became a believer before you 'accepted' the trinity. Mmmmmm - so you are saying it is not necessary to accept Jesus is God to be saved? Thanks.

One is not saved until they have persevered to the End .. . .


It is a very erroneous belief to believe that one has final salvation before they leave this world . . .


We have the HOPE of salvation . . we receive this hope realized when we PERSEVERE to the end.


Salvation is a process, the end result of our justification and sanctification.

You and I are not saved now . . .


We have the hope of our salvation now . . . you have begun on the path of salvation . . . but you have not reached its end. You can choose to leave it. . . if you turn away to follow a false Chrsit, can you be said to still be on the path of salvation?


If you believe you have your final salvation now, then this is confusing the issue for you.



Peace to all

 

[Debi1967]

.

 

[mutzrein]

Romans 10:9-10 pretty much says it all.
9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Here we see we must believe Jesus is Lord.

The bible also says, ". . . every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord."

Does that mean everyone will believe that Jesus is God and therefore everyone will be 'saved?'