The Trinity

[Debi1967]

If I cease putting my trust in Him then I will wander away from him and will be lost in the Forest again.

Jesus leads us to TRUTH not away from it and threfore by placing your Faith and trust in Jesus then you are being led to Truth, it is there in front of you for the taking..... All one must do is take the Truth from the Vine as He is the source of all Truth ....

Therefore, to simply have blind faith will not do He expects us to learn from Him as well and this means that we are also to show that we are studying the example of Christ and that we are learning .....

 

[Debi1967]

(BTW, this has nothing to do with the JW omission of that verse, but since I just know that the topic will come up, I'm doing a pre-emptive strike in favor of clarifying what is and is not meant by the argument here.)

Are you kidding me polcorp1 that did nothing to help me and will do nothing to help the poster I am trying to help either .....

Did you note the Mod note in this thread, I am trying to help this member to realize something and that did not help in your attempt to discredit me at this point ......

This whole thread is promoting something that is opposite to what is required as to being a poster in the Christian Only section ..... It is not required that you take the creed it is only required that you agree with it's contents .... That would mean that people here have to be trinitarian .....

It becomes rather disconcerting when all of the sudden you are taking up for Jehovah's Witnesses in this section of the board ...

Now it is either canonical or it is not and as I have pointed out even the KING JAMES VERSION of the Bible has chosen to use it as canonical ..... that in it itself should say something ...

 

[Diane_Windsor]

Debi,

If there were signs then I could figure out how to get out of the Forest myself, and I wouldn't need a Forest Ranger. If there were a sign that needed to be translated by my guide then I would still have to place my trust in him that he is giving me the accurate translation.

Anyway, it really doesn't matter if there are signs in the Forest to begin with. If I continue to place my faith in my guide and follow him then he will lead me out of the forest.

Jesus leads us to TRUTH not away from it and threfore by placing your Faith and trust in Jesus then you are being led to Truth, it is there in front of you for the taking..... All one must do is take the Truth from the Vine as He is the source of all Truth ....

Therefore, to simply have blind faith will not do He expects us to learn from Him as well and this means that we are also to show that we are studying the example of Christ and that we are learning .....

I'm not sure what this has to do with my statement, "If I cease putting my trust in Him then I will wander away from him and will be lost in the Forest again."

This whole thread is promoting something that is opposite to what is required as to being a poster in the Christian Only section ..... It is not required that you take the creed it is only required that you agree with it's contents .... That would mean that people here have to be trinitarian .....

I don't know if this is directed at me, but let me reiterate and make this very clear once again. One may personally believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, yet not believe it is "essential" for someone to believe it.

Cleany, I am curious . . . . .
Why do you spell the word "god" with a little "g" when speaking of God?

I may be speaking out of turn, but look at the context. In the post that you quoted he does not use captilization anywhere. I think he is just being lazy

DIANE

 

[Debi1967]

Debi,

If there were signs then I could figure out how to get out of the Forest myself, and I wouldn't need a Forest Ranger. If there were a sign that needed to be translated by my guide then I would still have to place my trust in him that he is giving me the accurate translation.

Anyway, it really doesn't matter if there are signs in the Forest to begin with. If I continue to place my faith in my guide and follow him then he will lead me out of the forest.



I'm not sure what this has to do with my statement, "If I cease putting my trust in Him then I will wander away from him and will be lost in the Forest again."



I may be speaking out of turn, but look at the context. In the post that you quoted he does not use captilization anywhere. I think he is just being lazy

DIANE

I have a question for you why are you promoting something that is directly opposite to what we all believe is our core doctrine of Faith ..... We all acknowledge that the Trinity in essence is provable only to a point but that the rest is a Mystery that must be taken on Faith, why are you then directly questioning it's authenticity?

 

[Debi1967]

I'm not sure what this has to do with my statement, "If I cease putting my trust in Him then I will wander away from him and will be lost in the Forest again."

Because if He is the source of all Truth then He is the only one that will know the way out

Therefore it is not only required that you have Faith but tthat you be able to identify that Truth as well for your sake as it is the only way to save yourself...

 

[Diane_Windsor]

I have a question for you why are you promoting something that is directly opposite to what we all believe is our core doctrine of Faith .....

Let me be very clear about something. I have not attacked the doctrine of the Trinity in this thread. I have attacked the idea that a belief in the doctrine of the Trinity is essential to one's salvation.

We all acknowledge that the Trinity in essence is provable only to a point but that the rest is a Mystery that must be taken on Faith, why are you then directly questioning it's authenticity?

Again, I am not questioning the doctrine of the Trinity itself. One may personally believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, yet not believe it is "essential" for someone to believe it. There is a key difference sister.

DIANE

 

[Debi1967]

Let me be very clear about something. I have not attacked the doctrine of the Trinity in this thread. I have attacked the idea that a belief in the doctrine of the Trinity is essential to one's salvation.



Again, I am not questioning the doctrine of the Trinity itself. One may personally believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, yet not believe it is "essential" for someone to believe it. There is a key difference sister.

DIANE

Who is God? ( and no this is not a trick question)

 

[Diane_Windsor]

Who is God? ( and no this is not a trick question)

God

DIANE

 

[Debi1967]

If one knows the TRUTH and then turns away from the truth as you say they shall become lost in the forest again and unless they return to the truth they previously knew Diane then they are forever lost because then they have outright rejected what they knew as Truth for the lie

 

[Debi1967]

God

DIANE

Who is God? Again I ask this question and it is not a trick question .... just answering with God is not good enough and I think you know that too ....

Is Christ God?
Is the Father God?
Is the Holy Spirit God?

There I have made answering this question easy for you

 

[Scholar in training]

God

Diane, let me ask you something in the affirmative, so we can be very clear: do you believe in God? By God, I mean the teaching that has been handed down to us by the Apostles themselves: the orthodox understanding of the Trinity.

 

[Diane_Windsor]

You misunderstand me Debi. If you have placed your faith in Jesus of Nazareth then he will guide you out of the forest regardless of what you believe about him. Again, I don't believe that any one person has the truth cornered-especially when it concerns God and Jesus. We all reject some amount of truth. I strongly believe that God Almighty cares more about people having a trusting relationship with Jesus and following Him than men believing in doctrines that have been formulated by church councils.

A person can believe in every single dogma of the Early Church yet not get out of the Forest. Why? Because when Jesus came and said to him, "Hi Friend! I know the way out of this forest. Do you completely trust what I am saying is true and do you completely trust that I will lead you out of this forest?" the person responded with, "no, I don't put my faith in you." Putting our faith and trust in Jesus of Nazareth (by God's grace of course) will get us out of the forest. I can't see Jesus rejecting a person who puts their faith in what He did on the Cross because they don't believe insert Christological doctrine here.

DIANE

 

[thereselittleflower]

.

 

[Diane_Windsor]

Diane, let me ask you something in the affirmative, so we can be very clear: do you believe in God? By God, I mean the teaching that has been handed down to us by the Apostles themselves: the orthodox understanding of the Trinity.

I do, but having said that I am currently do a little soul searching on the subject.

#113 Therese, did you mean to write something???

DIANE

 

[daveleau]

Is Christ God?
Is the Father God?
Is the Holy Spirit God?

Yes.

 

[Debi1967]

I do, but having said that I am currently do a little soul searching on the subject.

#113 Therese, did you mean to write something???

DIANE

Did you think that maybe the soul searching that you need to be doing needs to be done somewhere where it cannot effect others?

See Diane what happens if in the end of this soul searching you come to the conclusion that is being presented in this thread that someone who is accepting Christ must also believe that He is God in order to be properly informed with the Truth of Him..... Then you remember this thread where you challenged such beliefs and others have challenged such beliefs that are core and essential doctrines of Faith, this would mean that you and others have helped in contributing to keading others astray ....

Sometimes we must use a great deal of discernment when we ourselves have questions of Faith and realize that this may NOT be the proper format for them to be aired until such time as we actually truly know with conviction and it sounds to me that you are not at that point yet when you say that you are doing a little soul searching on the subject.....

Lovingly In Christ
Debi

Narrow and less travailed is the Path that leads to eternal life

 

[TrueWords]

To all.

The tri unity or the Trinity, say that God is one God but exist in three distinct though not seperate aspects or characteristics.

we see this in scripture, we see in Isaiah 48:16,17, a p[owerful tri unity verse. The Lord is speaking of the Lord God and His spirit sending him.

"Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God and his Spirit, hath sent me. Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God...' ( Isaiah 48:16,17)

Notice also the three that are the Lord, "The Lord, ' and "thy redeemer' and " The holy One of Israel.

Ther are all sorts of verses like this all over the bible.

It is not like, 1 + 1 +1 = 1

It is more like,

1 x 1 x 1 = 1

Or 1 divided by one, divided by one = 1

It is like the three major things in the universe make one universe, time space and matter. In time we have PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE, yet all flow into eachother.

In space we have height x length x bredth, and these three give the full space of something.

In matther we have solid liquid and gas, or we have ENERGY, MOTION, AND PHENOMENA.

 

[Diane_Windsor]

It is more like,

1 x 1 x 1 = 1

Or 1 divided by one, divided by one = 1

Just so you know that is a really poor example.

1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 = 1 too.

Anyway, I think this discussion would go in the Open to All Members section of the forum.

Did you think that maybe the soul searching that you need to be doing needs to be done somewhere where it cannot effect others?

I haven't done any soul searching about the Trinity or the nature of Jesus in this thread Debi

Sometimes we must use a great deal of discernment when we ourselves have questions of Faith and realize that this may NOT be the proper format for them to be aired until such time as we actually truly know with conviction and it sounds to me that you are not at that point yet when you say that you are doing a little soul searching on the subject.....

Nope, I am 100% positive that if a person (by God's grace) puts their faith in Jesus of Nazareth then they will attain salvation. I can't see Jesus rejecting a person who puts their faith in what He did on the Cross because they reject the opinions of an early church council. The opinions of chuch councils are not binding

Narrow and less travailed is the Path that leads to eternal life

Agreed.

DIANE

 

[thereselittleflower]

To all.

The tri unity or the Trinity, say that God is one God but exist in three distinct though not seperate aspects or characteristics.

This is close, but not right.

God is One God but exists in three distinct though not separate PERSONS.

Aspects/charateristics do not equate to personhood.

This is why the Trinity is so hard to grasp.


Take for an example a human being . . a man . . . one of the aspects of this man is that he is male.

But that he is male does not mean that he is a man . . .


God is Father, Son, Holy Spirit . . not simply aspects, but PERSONS . . not roles but PERSONS.


And where an aspect of a man is not the man himself, each PERSON of the TRINITY is FULLY GOD.

we see this in scripture, we see in Isaiah 48:16,17, a p[owerful tri unity verse. The Lord is speaking of the Lord God and His spirit sending him.

"Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God and his Spirit, hath sent me. Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God...' ( Isaiah 48:16,17)

Notice also the three that are the Lord, "The Lord, ' and "thy redeemer' and " The holy One of Israel.

Ther are all sorts of verses like this all over the bible.

It is not like, 1 + 1 +1 = 1

It is more like,

1 x 1 x 1 = 1

Or 1 divided by one, divided by one = 1

It is like the three major things in the universe make one universe, time space and matter. In time we have PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE, yet all flow into eachother.

All analogies fall short and if we take any of them to their natural end we end up in error . . in heresy.

The one above, if taken to its natural end would have the Father, Son and Holy Spirit existing at separate times . . . for the Past does not exist in the Present and the Future is yet to be . . ..


However, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit all exist at the same time, co-equal, one being, each FULLY GOD.

In space we have height x length x bredth, and these three give the full space of something.

Again, each one of thiese is not the whole . . but each person of the Trinity is FULLY GOD.

In matther we have solid liquid and gas, or we have ENERGY, MOTION, AND PHENOMENA.

The same limitations apply . . .

We must keep ever before us that God is ONE BEING, THREE PERSONS, CO-EQUAL, distinct but inseparable.


It boogles the mind. . . . .



Peace to all

 

[Debi1967]

Nope, I am 100% positive that if a person (by God's grace) puts their faith in Jesus of Nazareth then they will attain salvation. I can't see Jesus rejecting a person who puts their faith in what He did on the Cross because they reject the opinions of an early church council. The opinions of chuch councils are not binding

Reject the council all you want but one thing you keep saying is Jesus of Nazaruth as if that is His only title .... let us try this on for size shall we ...

An exercise of study of just one chapter of Scripture

For those that debate whether Jesus is God LOOK!!


I just posted this in UT and then I realized just what was being said all the way through this chapter of John for the first time ... funny I have read it and used it so many times ... so I thought I would share

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.

Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. (the Word)

Joh 1:4 In him was life: and the life was the light of men.

Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness: and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

Joh 1:7 This man came for a witness, to give testimony of the light, that all men might believe through him.

Joh 1:8 He was not the light, but was to give testimony of the light.

Joh 1:9 That was the true light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world.

Joh 1:10He was in the world: and the world was made by him: and the world knew him not.

Joh 1:11 He came unto his own: and his own received him not.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name.

Joh 1:13 Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.

Joh 1:15 John beareth witness of him and crieth out, saying: This was he of whom I spoke: He that shall come after me is preferred before me: because he was before me.

Joh 1:16 And of his fulness we all have received: and grace for grace.

Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses: grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son who is in the Bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Joh 1:19 And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent from Jerusalem priests and Levites to him, to ask him: Who art thou?

Joh 1:20 And he confessed and did not deny: and he confessed: I am not the Christ.

Joh 1:21 And they asked him: What then? Art thou Elias? And he said: I am not. Art thou the prophet? And he answered: No.

Joh 1:22 They said therefore unto him: Who art thou, that we may give an answer to them that sent us? What sayest thou of thyself?

Joh 1:23 He said: I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Isaias.

Joh 1:24 And they that were sent were of the Pharisees.

Joh 1:25 And they asked him and said to him: Why then dost thou baptize, if thou be not Christ, nor Elias, nor the prophet?

Joh 1:26 John answered them, saying: I baptize with water: but there hath stood one in the midst of you, whom you know not.

Joh 1:27 The same is he that shall come after me, who is preferred before me: the latchet of whose shoe I am not worthy to loose.

Joh 1:28 These things were done in Bethania, beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

Joh 1:29 The next day, John saw Jesus coming to him; and he saith: Behold the Lamb of God. Behold him who taketh away the sin of the world.

Joh 1:30 This is he of whom I said: After me there cometh a man, who is preferred before me: because he was before me.

Joh 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he may be made manifest in Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

Joh 1:32 And John gave testimony, saying: I saw the Spirit coming down, as a dove from heaven; and he remained upon him.

Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me: He upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and remaining upon him, he it is that baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Joh 1:34 And I saw: and I gave testimony that this is the Son of God.

Joh 1:35 The next day again John stood and two of his disciples.

Joh 1:36 And beholding Jesus walking, he saith: Behold the Lamb of God.

Joh 1:37 And the two disciples heard him speak: and they followed Jesus.

Joh 1:38 And Jesus turning and seeing them following him, saith to them: What seek you? Who said to him: Rabbi (which is to say, being interpreted, Master), where dwellest thou?

Joh 1:39 He saith to them: Come and see. They came and saw where he abode: and they stayed with him that day. Now it was about the tenth hour.

Joh 1:40 And Andrew, the brother of Simon Peter, was one of the two who had heard of John and followed him.

Joh 1:41 He findeth first his brother Simon and saith to him: We have found the Messias,(Messiah) which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

Joh 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And Jesus looking upon him, said: Thou art Simon the son of Jona. Thou shalt be called Cephas, which is interpreted Peter.

Joh 1:43 On the following day, he would go forth into Galilee: and he findeth Philip, And Jesus saith to him: follow me.

Joh 1:44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.

Joh 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael and saith to him: We have found him of whom Moses, in the law and the prophets did write, Jesus the son of Joseph of Nazareth.

Joh 1:46 And Nathanael said to him: Can any thing of good come from Nazareth? Philip saith to him: Come and see.

Joh 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him and he saith of him: Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no guile.

Joh 1:48 Nathanael saith to him: Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said to him: Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

Joh 1:49 Nathanael answered him and said: Rabbi: Thou art the Son of God. Thou art the King of Israel.

Joh 1:50 Jesus answered and said to him: Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, thou believest: greater things than these shalt thou see.

Joh 1:51 And he saith to him: Amen, amen, I say to you, you shall see the heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

He is the Word
He is God
He is Lord
He is the Son of God
He is the Lamb of God
He is the Light
He is the Son of man
He is Rabbi
He is King of Isreal
He is the Son of Joseph of Nazareth
He is the Messiah
He is Christ
He is Jesus
He is our Redeemer
He in the flesh is God-man
He not in the flesh is God
He is all of these things... and there is only one that I know that is all of these things and that is God. We pray to him and through Him and for Him... That is what we are told to do...

In the name of the Father Son and the Holy Ghost Amen
http://www.christianforums.com/t1159052-for-those-that-debate-whether-jesus-is-god-look.html

More, Boy I am getting exercise with this one....


Who Is the Word? Who gave us the Word? How did the word come to be written?

Jesus, The Father, The Holy Spirit All of whom are God


http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0020.html