The Trinity

[Lynn73]

I'll let my brother Paul speak for himself:

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV)

DIANE

Yes. What part of "not of works" don't people understand. Straightforward, clear, and simple.

 

[Polycarp1]

Yep. Bottom line is grace -- totally unearned gift of God. Faith -- trust in God -- is how we access it. Works enter into the picture only because they are the proper response to grace, in faith: "Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only."

And it's easy to mistake faith for doctrine. Doctrine merely describes for the sake of clarification what God it is in whom we have faith: that it's not Zeus or Odin or Allah, but the Triune God of whom the Son is Jesus Christ, truly God and truly man, who became incarnate and underwent death on the cross for our sakes. That God; accept no substitutes.

One of my closest young friends is a bright young 11-year-old who quite likely has the Gift of Wisdom, and who could probably wrap his brain around the theology of the Trinity and the Incarnation, and someday when he asks the right questions, we'll discuss it. For the moment, though, his focus is on loving support to those who need it: a cousin with major emotional problems, a schoolmate who thinks he's friendless, parents with stress in their lives. And I believe he's doing God's will in his young life. He doesn't need to deal with philosophical conundra, but with what God wants of him personally.

 

[Diane_Windsor]

Diane, a question that challenges one to prove the Trinity does raise eyebrows . .it raised mine for sure . . .

You misread the statement, "You are not close to prooving that we must believe in the Trinity, etc."

IOW, he did not show that we must believe in the Trinity to have salvation.

See the difference?

DIANE

 

[Scholar in training]

christian faith is not, i repeat not, believing in statements such as these. as diane put is grace is the only thing necessary for salvation.

In Romans 10 Paul tells us that if we confess with our mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and believe in our heart that God raised him from the dead, we will be saved. One cannot confess Jesus as Lord if one does not know who Jesus Christ is; or what it means for him to be Lord. Someone who is saved despite never having heard the name of Christ is an exception because of God's grace, not the rule.

can anyone actually explain what that means, and how jesus quite clearly didnt know all that god apparently does?

I could, but by the wording of your post ("can anyone actually"....) I honestly don't know if you want the answer.

to me the trinity is like the big bang theory. it is mans best guess at an unanswerable question. it is not provable in any way, or really understandable. to believe it completely is utter denial and self-dishonesty.

It is foolishness to say that we can fully understand the Trinity. But no one here has claimed that we can. Do you honestly think that we believe we have a total grasp on the things of God? Or are we defending what we do have reason to believe to be true?

But what you are saying is just the opposite of saying that we can "fully" understand God: that we really can't know what the nature of God is (and then you foolishly compare this to the Big Bang; neither of which are "unprovable").

to think that you "have to" believe it for some reason is fear.

I don't think I need to go into detail about the fallicious nature of this statement. Leave the psychology to Dr. Phil.

we are ALLOWED to think for ourselves and question things.

We are allowed to think for ourselves, but this doesn't mean that our views will match up with reality. Some people believe the earth is young. Are they thinking for themselves, or just being ignorant?

but i dont see how i can be held "accountable" for not believing in ideas which are man made without questioning them.

These beliefs are not man-made (that is, they were not imagined by the ancients). If they are man-made, there is no use in believing them, because they are not true. Period.

the word "trinity" isnt in the bible

So? Can you tell me what a high-context culture is? Why should we expect the writers of the Bible to classify concepts like the Trinity in the way that we would today? Please let me know what right you have to speak so vocally about something you have not bothered to carefully research.

not does the bible say anywhere that believing in "the trinity" is necessary for salvation, or that we will be held accountable for our beliefs.

Deut 27:12-15, 18 (NIV)
When you have crossed the Jordan, these tribes shall stand on Mount Gerizim to bless the people: Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Joseph and Benjamin. And these tribes shall stand on Mount Ebal to pronounce curses: Reuben, Gad, Asher, Zebulun, Dan and Naphtali.

The Levites shall recite to all the people of Israel in a loud voice:

"Cursed is the man who carves an image or casts an idol—a thing detestable to the LORD, the work of the craftsman's hands—and sets it up in secret."
Then all the people shall say, "Amen!" . . .

"Cursed is the man who leads the blind astray on the road."
Then all the people shall say, "Amen!"

Revelation 16:9 (emphasis mine)
They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.

 

[thereselittleflower]

DISCLAIMER . . PLEASE read the whole post before responding, as it may sound as though I am saying something other than I am actually saying if the full context is not understood.

You misread the statement, "You are not close to prooving that we must believe in the Trinity, etc."

IOW, he did not show that we must believe in the Trinity to have salvation.

See the difference?

DIANE

But to be Christian, we must believe in the Trinity, for that is part of the definition of what it means to be a Christian . . .

For instance, Mormons believe in Jesus, they don't believe in the Trinity .. . they are not Christians. . . . They are psuedo-chrsitians . . .


Now, I firmly believe that people who are not Christians can be saved, but that is a matter of the heart between them and God and being separated from true faith in Christ one cannot with any assurance say that any are saved who are not Chirstian.



Those who are Christian and persevere to the end will be saved, of that we can be assured of . . .

Mat 10:22 And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.

(Jesus)

​

there is no such assurance for non-Christians.


So . . what does it mean to be a Christian?

Does it means that just because soemone calls his or herself a Christian that they are?


What are we to persevere in?


The Truth. . . . .


How can we persevere in the Truth if we don't know it?


If the Trinity is true, then we are called to persevere in that truth.

Part of persevering is doing as Paul said . . . to STAND FAST and HOLD TO the traditions given whether by word or by epistle.

Part of what was given by word, ie verbally taught by the apostles, is the doctrine of the Trinity.

We are to STAND FAST And HOLD TO the doctrine of the Trinity.


If we don't, then how can we be obedient to what Paul says to us here?


How can we persevere by STANDING FAST and HOLDING to what has been taught by the Apostles if we reject some of what they taught?


To say that one does not have to believe in the Trinity to be saved may be techinically accurate on one level, but to say this without any qualification that it is a part of the ALL Truth handed down by the disciples and we are required to perservere in this truth, to STAND FAST AND HOLD TO this truth, and those who perservere to the end are the ones ASSURED of salvation, is to mislead and to give the impression that this is an "optional" belief .. .


If people can be saved without being Christians, then one could argue that believing in Jesus is an "optional" belief, and techinically, in one aspect that would be true . . .but very, very incorrect, for no one can be saved apart from Jesus. . . .


To clarify fruther, what I am talking about are those who, through no fault of their own, have never heard the Gospel, who do not know of Jesus or of the need to beleive in Him. . . . It is possible for them to still be saved (on an individual basis) based on their being true to the truth they do know and a desire to follow and love and obey and serve God as best they know.

A bruised reed God will not break.

This is the ONLY way such a statement can be true.


Believing in Jesus is NOT optional for those who know the Gospel, who know the necessity of beleiving in Him.


Same for the Trinity . . . it is NOT optional for those who know the Gospel, who know the teaching of the Trinity . . .


The truth is never "optional" . . .


God holds us accountable for the truth we know.


Jesus is TRUTH Himself.


How can we KNOWINGLY reject TRUTH and not reject Jesus?



SO . . believing in the Trinity is not optional for salvation if one knows it is true(whether one understands it or not is something else).

If one is not sure or is certain it is not true, then one must be very sure that their rejection of it is not motivated by a trust in self, an elevation of self above truth, and that one's heart is not deceiving them . . . . For if we have the opportunity to know it and we willingly turn our back on it, then we have willingly turned our back on truth . . . .

This is where the issue of "vincible" and "invicible" ignorance comes in . . . . If we are able to overcome our ignorance of something, but choose not to, God will hold us accountable.


We are held accountable to the truth we know, and which we could have known but presumptuously chose to reject even the opportunity of knowing.


Who decides if one's ignorance is vincilbe or invincilbe? God alone.


But the truth of the Trinity has been handed down to us by the Church and is supported in scripture, and to imply that the Truth of the Trinity is optional in any way is to do a great disservice to others who may be struggling with aspects of the Christian faith . . it may cause one to become complacent and then presumptuous that they can be saved withou being true to the truth God has given them.


We must be very careful about this.


Believing in the Trinity is core to being a Christian . . . .

Standing Fast and Holding to this Truth is part of persevering as Jesus commanded us to do, with the assurance of salvation if we persevere to the end.


To suggest otherwise is to go against the scriptures themselves.



Peace to all

 

[thereselittleflower]

the "truth" you are talking about are mans explaination of ideas that are not able to be fully understood,

Nope . . no more than the scriptures are man's writing.

i question these ideas and the explainations of them. for this i can be held accountable.

Then do you not believe in the Trinity?

Can you explain your beliefs about God and the Trinity? If you question the Trinity doctrine, what part are you questioning?

All of it? Part of it?

but i dont see how i can be held "accountable" for not believing in ideas which are man made without questioning them.

"questioning" is a part of the process of understanding them.

What is at issue is "how" we are questioning them . . .

Do we desire to know the truth whatever it costs us and to conform ourselves to the Truth even if it means our previous ideas and understanding is wrong?

Or does it mean we desire to find what makes sense to us, and are willing to accept somethng that may not be true because it is easier or more comfortable for us to do so?

One can believe and question in a proper way, to learn and understand something better, at the same time.

If one questions without believing, for one does not have to understand something to believe it is true, then one enters into a very dangerous area . . for only God can know one's heart and what the real motivations of one's heart really are (which, one's heart, being exceedingly wicked and deceiftul, can hide even from one, oneself).

But one has to go through the process . . .


Can one be said to be a Christian if one does not believe in the Trinity, if one does not accept this doctrine even if they don't understand it? It is a core belief of the Christian faith . . so how could one be?

the word "trinity" isnt in the bible, not does the bible say anywhere that believing in "the trinity" is necessary for salvation, or that we will be held accountable for our beliefs.

The bible tells us to STAND FAST AND TO HOLD TO the traditions the apostles taught, WHETHER by WORD (by the oral handing down of the teachings of the apostles) or by EPSISTLE (what became our scriptures) - to BOTH.

Jesus said those who persevere to the end will be saved.

Yes, the bible tells us we have to hold to this and stand fast in it to be saved . . again, read my post above . . .

what the bible does mention about in reference to accountablility, MANY times, is our behaviour. but that would go against the sacred fundementalist idea of "grace through faith" wouldnt it?

Nope, it would not, for it is part of being saved BY Grace . . .

God holds us accountable to the truth we know (again see my above post).

This means we have to be TRUE to the TRUTH we know . . .

That INCLUDES our behavior.

How can one be true to the truth one knows if one's behavior is not in line with the truth?

If one behaved contrary to the truth, then one would not be TRUE to the Truth.

Does this make sense? It all goes together.

it appears that "truth" and "biblical" are words whos meaning change depending on what people want to believe. perhaps god holds us accountable for our honesty with ourselves and others.

Yes, He does .. .for honesty is part of the TRUTH God holds us accoutntable for.

There is only ONE Truth . .. it is ABSOLUTE . .


TRUTH is a PERSON . . . Jesus.


If we are not true to the TRUTH, then how can we say we are being true to JESUS. . . ?


Where do you think that will get us?

if anyone honestly thinks that their not going to hell depends on "believing" some statements about the nature of god and salvation then i ask them why do they think that? and why do they think that others should think the same way?

Did this post and my last one help answer that question by giving a little bit different perspective on this issue?



Peace to all

 

[Diane_Windsor]

But to be Christian, we must believe in the Trinity, for that is part of the definition of what it means to be a Christian . . .

To be a Christian one must place their faith in Jesus of Nazareth and follow Him. I'll attempt to give an illustration:

I am lost in a forest-I don't know where I am and I don't know where I'm going, and I am thirsty and hungry. I meet a man named John, whom I know absolutely nothing about. John tells me that he knows a way out of the forest that can lead me out-all I must do is trust and follow him. Again, I don't know anything this man, but since he is the only person I met in the forest I place my trust in him and decide to follow him. That afternoon he leds me out of the forest and into a city.

What ultimately got me out of the forest? Placing my trust in John and following him out. I didn't need to know or believe that he was really an angel sent from Heaven.

When you are lost in a forest and you come across a man named Jesus of Nazareth and you place your faith in him to lead you out of the forest then I don't see how God would condemn that person. I believe that God cares more about men following Jesus of Nazareth and their relationship with Him then what they believe about Jesus's nature, his relationship with God, etc.

So . . what does it mean to be a Christian?

To place your trust in Jesus of Nazareth and follow him out of the forest

If the Trinity is true, then we are called to persevere in that truth.

In order to follow place my trust in Jesus of Nazareth and follow Him out of the forest do I need to believe or even know who He is, what His nature is, or how He is related to God? I am going to get out of the forest if I follow Jesus regardless of what my beliefs are about Him. OTHO, a person will not get out of the forest if they believe that Jesus is God, they believe the Trinity, etc. and refuse to place their trust and follow Jesus.

Part of persevering is doing as Paul said . . . to STAND FAST and HOLD TO the traditions given whether by word or by epistle.

Part of what was given by word, ie verbally taught by the apostles, is the doctrine of the Trinity.

That is an opinion of a church council, which is not binding on anyone.

How can we persevere by STANDING FAST and HOLDING to what has been taught by the Apostles if we reject some of what they taught?

No denomination or person has it 100% right, so in some way, shape, or form, we have rejected or misinterpreted some teaching to a certain extent. I don't recall Paul teaching us that in order to attain salvation that we must (by God's grace) place our faith in Jesus AND have it 100% correct.

To say that one does not have to believe in the Trinity to be saved may be techinically accurate on one level, but to say this without any qualification that it is a part of the ALL Truth handed down by the disciples and we are required to perservere in this truth, to STAND FAST AND HOLD TO this truth, and those who perservere to the end are the ones ASSURED of salvation, is to mislead and to give the impression that this is an "optional" belief .. .

If a person trusts Jesus of Nazareth and follows Him then are they going to get out of the forest or not? When you follow the person who knows the forest like the back of their hand then you are going to get out of the forest.

SO . . believing in the Trinity is not optional for salvation if one knows it is true(whether one understands it or not is something else).

I disagree. When Jesus says that He can get you out of the forest and you believe Him and follow, then you will make it out of the forest.

But the truth of the Trinity has been handed down to us by the Church and is supported in scripture,

Whether or not the Trinity can be supported by Scripture is a matter of opinion. OTHO, some people firmly believe that Unitariansim can be supported by Scripture.

and to imply that the Truth of the Trinity is optional in any way is to do a great disservice to others who may be struggling with aspects of the Christian faith . . it may cause one to become complacent and then presumptuous that they can be saved withou being true to the truth God has given them.

To say that a person must believe that Jesus of Nazareth is _____ in order to lead you out of the forest is in error. If you choose to trust Him and follow Him then He will lead you out of the forest.

Believing in the Trinity is core to being a Christian . . . .

I believe the core of being a Christian is to trust Jesus of Nazareth and follow Him out of the forest.

DIANE

 

[thereselittleflower]

To be a Christian one must place their faith in Jesus of Nazareth and follow Him.

And to do this, one must properly understand who Jesus of Nazereth is . . . If one rejects the TRUTH about Jesus, then is one a Christian? Part of that TRUTH is WHO Jesus is . . . the GOD MAN . . 2nd Person of the Trinity, ETERNALLY BEGOTTEN, having no beginnig, no end . . .

Can one KNOWINGLY reject TRUTH without rejecting the One who IS TRUTH?

I'll attempt to give an illustration:

I am lost in a forest-I don't know where I am and I don't know where I'm going, and I am thirsty and hungry. I meet a man named John, whom I know absolutely nothing about. John tells me that he knows a way out of the forest that can lead me out-all I must do is trust and follow him. Again, I don't know anything this man, but since he is the only person I met in the forest I place my trust in him and decide to follow him. That afternoon he leds me out of the forest and into a city.

What ultimately got me out of the forest? Placing my trust in John and following him out. I didn't need to know or believe that he was really an angel sent from Heaven.

TRUTH got you out . . trusting in the TRUTH, not rejecting the TRUTH.

The truth in your illustration was that John could lead you out.

You had a choice to make.

If you had not put your trust in the TRUTH (which at the time you did not know for sure was the truth), would you have gotten out of the forest?

This is all about TRUTH Diane . . . And TRUTH is a PERSON.

When you are lost in a forest and you come across a man named Jesus of Nazareth and you place your faith in him to lead you out of the forest then I don't see how God would condemn that person. I believe that God cares more about men following Jesus of Nazareth and their relationship with Him then what they believe about Jesus's nature, his relationship with God, etc.


To place your trust in Jesus of Nazareth and follow him out of the forest

Again, This is all about TRUTH Diane . . . And TRUTH is a PERSON.

In order to follow place my trust in Jesus of Nazareth and follow Him out of the forest do I need to believe or even know who He is, what His nature is, or how He is related to God? I am going to get out of the forest if I follow Jesus regardless of what my beliefs are about Him. OTHO, a person will not get out of the forest if they believe that Jesus is God, they believe the Trinity, etc. and refuse to place their trust and follow Jesus.

Diane, let me take your illustration to the next level to try to show you what I am tyring to say.


Jesus comes to you in the forest . . He tells you that if you will trust and follow Him, that He will be able to lead you out of the forest to safetly..

You don't know even that He is God yet . . . . but you start to follow Him.

A ways down the path you come to a fork in the road . . one way looks easy . .the other way hard . . . You think that obviously the easy way must be the right way because it looks so well travelled . . . But Jesus says no, THIS is the way you must come . . . and you look again, it is rocky, uneven, narrow, overgrown, very difficult looking. . . There is a sign, it says "Trinity"

You now have another choice to make . .

In the first choice presented to you, you chose to believe the TRUTH that Jesus would lead you out to safety.

Now you are facing another choice . . .

Will you choose to believe the TRUTH that the way out to safety involves accepting this portion of the path that looks so difficult?

Or will you choose the easier path?

Jesus is not going to lead you down the easier path . . . He will lead down this more difficult path.

If you choose to stop following Jesus on the path that He has set before you, will you escape the forest to the place of safety He wants to bring you to?

That is an opinion of a church council, which is not binding on anyone.

That's not true Diane.


Truth is Truth and Truth is binding on us all.

The Trinity is TRUTH.


There is only one path to salvation . . and that is the path of TRUTH and TRUTH is a PERSON.

No denomination or person has it 100% right, so in some way, shape, or form, we have rejected or misinterpreted some teaching to a certain extent.

That is an assumption . . . How do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that no one Church has it 100% right?

I don't recall Paul teaching us that in order to attain salvation that we must (by God's grace) place our faith in Jesus AND have it 100% correct.

We have to STAND FAST and HOLD TO the traditions taught by the Apostles, not just scripture . . .

Jesus told us that he who perseveres to the end will be saved . . He didn't say anyone else would be saved.


Can you reject TRUTH wthout also, in some way, be rejecting Jesus Who IS Truth?


What happens when you knowlingly reject Truth?

If a person trusts Jesus of Nazareth and follows Him then are they going to get out of the forest or not?

Can a person be following Jesus when that person ignores and rejects what Jesus tells him/her?


Who are they following when they do that? Jesus? Or themselves? Or someone else?

When you follow the person who knows the forest like the back of their hand then you are going to get out of the forest.

That means one has to follow Him on paths that may not look right, that may not make sense, rather than choosing their own way.

I disagree. When Jesus says that He can get you out of the forest and you believe Him and follow, then you will make it out of the forest.

And what happens if you refuse to follow Him down part of the path?

Whether or not the Trinity can be supported by Scripture is a matter of opinion. OTHO, some people firmly believe that Unitariansim can be supported by Scripture.

The Trinity can be supported from the scripture . . it cannot be EXPLICTLY PROVEN . . . I agree .. Unitarians can use the same sripture to support their view point.

Scripture is not enough to have right Trinitarian belief..

To say that a person must believe that Jesus of Nazareth is _____ in order to lead you out of the forest is in error. If you choose to trust Him and follow Him then He will lead you out of the forest.

Look at how I expanded your illustration . . you have to be willing to walk the whole path in order to get out . . if you turn back or aside at any point, will you get out?

I believe the core of being a Christian is to trust Jesus of Nazareth and follow Him out of the forest.

DIANE

Look at the path . . . . .



Peace to all

 

[Diane_Windsor]

And to do this, one must properly understand who Jesus of Nazereth is . . . If one rejects the TRUTH about Jesus, then is one a Christian? Part of that TRUTH is WHO Jesus is . . . the GOD MAN . . 2nd Person of the Trinity, ETERNALLY BEGOTTEN, having no beginnig, no end . . .

I disagree. Going back to my illustration. Let's say that when I first meet John he says to me that he is an angel sent from heaven. I don't believe him. John tells me that he knows a way out of the forest that can lead me out-all I must do is trust what he says and follow him. This I do and several hours later we are out of the forest.

*Let me stress this is only an illustration.*

Let's apply this to Jesus. Let's say that when I first meet Jesus in the forest he says to me that he is the Son of God. I don't believe him. Jesus still tells me that he knows a way out of the forest and can lead us out. All I must do is trust and follow him.

Will I get out of the forest if I trust Jesus and follow him even though I don't believe his claim about being the Son of God? I believe I will-after all he is the Forest Ranger and know this forest like the back of his hand.

Can one KNOWINGLY reject TRUTH without rejecting the One who IS TRUTH?

See the illustration above. Even though I didn't believe that John was an angel by trusting him and following him I still got out of the forest.

TRUTH got you out . . trusting in the TRUTH, not rejecting the TRUTH. The truth in your illustration was that John could lead you out.

You had a choice to make.

If you had not put your trust in the TRUTH (which at the time you did not know for sure was the truth), would you have gotten out of the forest?

No, my trust (which I received by grace of course) in John got me out of the forest. When you choose to believe what someone has told you then you have put your trust in them.

Diane, let me take your illustration to the next level to try to show you what I am tyring to say.

Okay.

Jesus comes to you in the forest . . He tells you that if you will trust and follow Him, that He will be able to lead you out of the forest to safetly..

You don't know even that He is God yet . . . . but you start to follow Him.

A ways down the path you come to a fork in the road . . one way looks easy . .the other way hard . . . You think that obviously the easy way must be the right way because it looks so well travelled . . . But Jesus says no, THIS is the way you must come . . . and you look again, it is rocky, uneven, narrow, overgrown, very difficult looking. . . There is a sign, it says "Trinity"

Therese, there are no signs in the Forest, otherwise, we could get out ourselves. When you are lost in a forest it only matters that the Forest ranger knows the way out of the Forest and you put your faith in him to lead you out. However, you are correct that we do face many choices. Jesus can turn and say to me, "look at this bridge, we need to cross it to the other side." If I respond, "but Jesus more than just a few boards are missing from that bridge. I am not willing to cross it" then at that moment I have ceased to put my trust in him to lead us out of the forest.

Will you choose to believe the TRUTH that the way out to safety involves accepting this portion of the path that looks so difficult?

No I choose to put my trust in Jesus. I see this as a faith/trust issue in Jesus, as does Paul. We are saved by grace through faith he writes to the Ephesians.

If you choose to stop following Jesus on the path that He has set before you, will you escape the forest to the place of safety He wants to bring you to?

If I cease putting my trust in Him then I will wander away from him and will be lost in the Forest again.

That's not true Diane.

I very firmly disagree. The opinions of men are not binding

That is an assumption . . . How do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that no one Church has it 100% right?

How do you know beyond "a shadow of a doubt" that the Trinity is a valid doctrine? How do you know beyond "a shadow of a doubt" that the Heaven exists? Just look at how many times the Apostles themselves got it wrong and misunderstood Jesus. If anyone tells me that they have the corner on truth then I turn and run.

Jesus told us that he who perseveres to the end will be saved . . He didn't say anyone else would be saved.

By continuing to put our faith in him to led us out of the Forest.

Though I still disagree with you sis this has been a pleasant conversation I have learned that my forest illustration can be applied to other doctrines, etc. You must be a detailed oriented person. Thanks!

DIANE

 

[Cleany]

rather than replying directly to those who quoted me, i think its better i make a couple of things clear.

i do not believe that things are a clear-cut as most christians seem to make out. heaven and hell - who knows? what is truth - who knows? what i do believe however are my experiences of god through the holy spirit, and the commitment to jesus and god that lead me to those experiences.

in my experience what god has shown me and how he has helped me have had nothing whatsoever to do with doctrines, and nothing to do with ideas about the nature of jesus.

it is not necessary to believe certain things about jesus to experience god. isnt it asking anough that people believe that somehow a person is allied to god in such a way that you can call on his name in prayer?

please understand that i am not saying that i dont believe that jesus isnt "lord", because i do. what i am questioning is the idea the he is somehow fully god, which is even itself contradicted by the bible (which itself has many contradictions).

what i am saying is that understanding, technical prowess is not what salvation is all about. what it is about is the miracle that god became man and wants to have a relationship with us. it is about the experience of that relationship[ here and now, and god helping others through us. it is not about stupid thousand year old doctrines that wouldnt stand up in any court. and it is certainly not about "having to believe them or you go to hell". and they are not "the core of the christian faith". the core of the christian faith is jesus, not theories about him.

i originally asked if anyone understands the trinity, clearly they do not. i also asked why it was necessary to believe in it, the only answers that i have had are that either it isnt (correct lol) or that he is but with no reason given.

if it is necessary then why is it?

 

[Scholar in training]

i do not believe that things are a clear-cut as most christians seem to make out.

No, as I stated earlier the problem is that you do not think they are "clear-cut" at all. You think it is impossible to know the truth. Yet if it is impossible to know the truth, then how can we know anything? What does it mean "to know" something? Your own beliefs are self-refuting, they are unfalsifiable.

what i do believe however are my experiences of god through the holy spirit, and the commitment to jesus and god that lead me to those experiences.

What makes this belief different than a belief in heaven, hell, or the Trinity?

please understand that i am not saying that i dont believe that jesus isnt "lord", because i do.

No, you do not believe that Jesus is Lord. No one worships someone who is only Man. To do that is blasphemy.

what i am questioning is the idea the he is somehow fully god, which is even itself contradicted by the bible (which itself has many contradictions).

The same mush you posted earlier without substantiation.

i originally asked if anyone understands the trinity, clearly they do not.

Obfuscation.

 

[daveleau]

Mod Hat On

Please note that denial that Christ is God is contrary to the Nicene Creed which is our basis for allowing access to the Christian Only forums. More inportantly, note what Scripture says about Christ being God. The evidence is laid out here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t2037195-christ-is-god.html

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[Debi1967]

i do not believe that things are a clear-cut as most christians seem to make out. heaven and hell - who knows? what is truth - who knows? what i do believe however are my experiences of god through the holy spirit, and the commitment to jesus and god that lead me to those experiences.

Well then the Trinity when put into context in the Bible is clear cut

Scripture
I. Old and New Testament Parallels of God the Father and God the Son

Exodus 3:14 - God says "I AM who I AM" - John 8:58 - Jesus says "Before Abraham was, I AM" in reference to Himself.



Deut. 4:2; 12:32 - the Lord God commands that we not add or take away from His word - Rev. 22:18-19 - Jesus so commands us not to add or take away from His word.

Deut. 32:39; 1 Sam. 2:6 - the Lord kills and makes alive again and raises up - John 5:21 - the Son raises and gives life.

Deut. 32:39 - neither is there any that can deliver out of God's hand - John 10:28 - nor shall any pluck out of Jesus' hand.

Deut. 32:43 - rejoice, ye heavens, with Him, and let all the angels of God worship Him - Heb. 1:6 - the "Him" is Jesus the Son.

2 Sam. 22:3 - God is the horn of salvation - Luke 1:68-69 - Jesus is the horn of salvation.

Psalm 19:7 - the law of the Lord is perfect - Gal. 6:2 - fulfill the law of Christ.

Psalm 24:10 - the Lord is the King of glory - 1 Cor. 2:8 - Jesus is the Lord of glory.

Psalm 45:7 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. God calls someone else God. This someone else is His eternally begotten Son - Heb. 1:9 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. cf. Heb. 1:8, 10.

Psalm 62:12 - the Lord God renders to each according to his work - Matt. 16:27; Rev. 22:12 - Jesus so renders to each according to his work.

Psalm 71:5 - the Lord God is our hope - 1 Tim. 1:1 - the Lord Jesus Christ who is our hope.

Psalm 89:27 – I will make him the first-born, the highest (“elyon” which refers to God) of the kings of the earth - John 18:36-27 – Jesus is this first-born king.

Psalm 97:9 - the Lord God is above all - John 3:31 - Jesus is above all.

Psalms 110:1 - the Lord (Yahweh) said to my Lord - Jesus = Yhwh - Acts 2:34-36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ.

Psalm 148:1-2 - the angels worship the Lord God - Heb. 1:6 - the angels worship Jesus. Only God is worshiped.

Prov. 3:12 - who the Lord loves He corrects - Rev. 3:19 - who Jesus loves He corrects.

Isaiah 7:14 - a virgin will bear a Son named Emmanuel which means "God is with us" - Matt. 1:23 - this Son is Jesus Christ, God in the flesh.

Isaiah 9:6 - the child to be born shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 25:8 - God swallows up death in victory - 2 Tim. 1:10 - Jesus abolishes death and brings life and immortality.

Isaiah 40:8 - the Word of God shall stand forever - Matt. 24:35 - the Words of Jesus shall not pass away.

Isaiah 42:8 - God gives His glory to no other - John 17:5; Heb. 1:3 - yet Jesus has the same glory as the Father.

Isaiah 43:14 - the Lord God is redeemer - Titus 2:14 - Jesus is the redeemer.

Isaiah 44:6 - the Lord God is the first and the last - Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13 - Jesus is the first and the last.

Isaiah 45:19 - I, the Lord God, did not speak in secret - John 18:20 - Jesus said "I have said nothing secretly."

Isaiah 45:23 - to God, every knee shall bow and every tongue swear. Phil. 2:10-11 - at Jesus' name every knee should bow and tongue confess.

Isaiah 48:17 - God is the Holy One - Acts 3:14 - Jesus is the Holy One.

Isaiah 60:19 - God is everlasting light - Revelation 21:23 - Jesus the Lamb is eternal light.

Jer. 17:10 - the Lord searches the hearts and repays us according to our deeds - Rev. 2:23 - Jesus searches the hearts and repays us according to our deeds.

Ezek. 1:26-28; Daniel 7:9 - God's glorious appearance - Rev. 1:13-16 - Jesus' glorious appearance.

Ezek. 34:11-31 - God the Father is the shepherd of the flock - John 10:7-29 - Jesus is the shepherd of the flock.

Ezek. 34:16 - God seeks to save that which was lost - Luke 19:10 - Jesus seeks to save that which was lost.

Ezek. 34:17 - God judges between cattle, rams and goats - Matt. 25:32 - Jesus judges and separates the goats from the sheep.

Ezek. 43:2 - God's voice was like a noise of many waters - Rev. 1:15 - Jesus' voice was like the sound of many waters. Dan. 2:47 - the Lord is the God of gods and the Lord of Lords - Rev. 17:14 - Jesus the Lamb is the Lord of Lords

 

[Debi1967]

II. Jesus Christ's Witnesses Claim that Jesus is God

John 1:1 - John writes, "the Word was God." This is clear evidence of Jesus Christ's divinity. (Note: in the Jehovah's bible, the passage was changed to "Word was a god." This is not only an embarrassing attempt to deny the obvious divinity of Christ, but it also violates the first commandment and Isaiah 43:10 because it acknowledges that there is more than one God).



John 1:2-3 - He (the Word) was in the beginning with God and all things were made through Him (the Word who was God).

John 1:14 - the Word (who is God) became flesh (Jesus) and dwelled among us, full of grace and truth.

John 1:18 - the Greek word for "only-begotten" is "monogenes" which means unique, only member of a kind. It does not mean created.

John 1:51 - the angels of God - Matt. 13:41 - Son of Man's angels; 2 Thess. 1:7 - Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His angels.

John 3:5 - Jesus says without baptism one cannot enter into the Kingdom of God - Col. 1:13 - Paul says this is Jesus' Kingdom.

John 6:68-69 - Peter confesses that Jesus is the Son of God who has the words of eternal life.

Acts 2:36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ - Acts 4:24 - Sovereign Lord who made heaven and earth. This means Jesus is God.

Acts 3:15 - Peter said the men of Israel "killed the Author of Life." This can only be God - Acts 14:15 - who made all things.

Acts 20:28 - to care for the Church of God which He obtained with His own blood. This means God shed His blood. When? When He died on the cross. This means Jesus is God.

Rom. 1:1 - Paul is an apostle of the Gospel of God - Rom. 15:19 - Paul preached the Gospel of Christ.

Rom. 7:22 - Paul says he delights in the law of God - Gal. 6:2 - Paul says fulfill the law of Christ.

Rom. 8:9 - Paul refers to both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ.

Rom. 9:5 - Jesus Christ is God over all, blessed forever.

Rom. 11:36 - God for from Him through Him and to Him are all things - Heb. 2:10 - Jesus for whom and by whom are all things.

1 Cor. 15:9 - Paul says he persecuted the Church of God - Matt. 16:18; Rom. 16:16 - it is the Church of Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 15:28 - God may be all in all - Colossians 3:11 - Christ is all and in all.

Gal. 1:5 - God the Father to whom be the glory forever - 2 Peter 3:18 - to Jesus Christ be the glory both now and forever.

Phil. 2:6-7 - Jesus was in the form of God, but instead of asserting His equality with God, emptied Himself for us.

Col. 1:15 - Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the "firstborn" of all creation. The Greek word for "first-born" is "prototokos" which means eternal preexistence (it never means created).

Col. 1:26 - God's saints - 1 Thess. 3:13 - at the coming of Jesus Christ with all His saints.

Col. 2:9 - in Jesus Christ the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. He is the whole and entire fullness of the indivisible God in the flesh.

Titus 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of God - Rom. 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of Jesus Christ.

Titus 1:3-4 - God our Savior = Christ our Savior = Jesus Christ is God.

Titus 2:11 - the grace of God that has appeared to save all men - Acts 15:11 - through the grace of Jesus we have salvation.

Titus 2:13 - we await our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 3:4 - 3:6 - great God and Savior Jesus Christ = God our Savior = Jesus Christ our Savior = Jesus is God.

Heb. 1:6 - when God brings His first-born into the world, let all the angels of God worship Him. Only God is worshiped.

Heb. 1:8 - God calls the Son "God." But of the Son He says, "Thy Throne Oh God is forever and ever."

Heb. 1:9 - God calls the Son "God." "Therefore, God, Thy God has anointed Thee."

Heb. 1:10 - God calls the Son "Lord." "And thou, Lord, didst found the earth in the beginning and the heavens are your work."

Heb. 13:12 - Paul says Jesus sanctifies the people with His blood - 1 Thess. 5:23 - the God of peace sanctifies the people.

2 Peter 1:1 - to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:20 - "that we may know Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life."

Jude 4 - Jude calls Jesus Christ our only Master and Lord. Our only Master and Lord is God Himself.

Rev. 2:8 - the angel of the church in Smyrna wrote, "The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life." See Isa. 44:6. Rev. 22:6 - the Lord God sends angels - Rev. 22:16 - Jesus sends angels.

 

[Debi1967]

III. Jesus Christ Claims to be God

Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12 - Jesus tells satan, "you shall not tempt the Lord your God" in reference to Himself.



Matt. 5:21-22; 27-28; 31-32; 33-34; 38-39; 43-44 - Jesus makes Himself equal to God when He declares, "You heard it said...but I say to you.."

Matt. 7:21-22; Luke 6:46 - not everyone who says to Jesus, "Lord, Lord." Jesus calls Himself Lord, which is God.

Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48 - Jesus forgives sins. Only God can forgive sins.

Matt. 12:8; Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5 - Jesus says that He is "Lord of the Sabbath." He is the Lord of God's law which means He is God.

Matt. 18:20 - Jesus says where two or three are gathered in His name, there He is in the midst of them.

Matt. 21:3; Luke 19:31,34 - Jesus calls himself "Lord." "The Lord has need of them."

Matt. 26:64; Mark 14:62; Luke 22:70 - Jesus acknowledges that He is the Son of God.

Matt. 28:20 - Jesus said He is with us always, even unto the end of the world. Only God is omnipresent.

Mark 14:36 - Jesus calls God "Abba," Aramaic for daddy, which was an absolutely unprecedented address to God and demonstrates Jesus' unique intimacy with the Father.

Luke 8:39 - Luke reports that Jesus said "tell how much God has done for you." And the man declared how much Jesus did.

Luke 17:18 - Jesus asks why the other nine lepers did not come back to give praise to Him, God, except the Samaritan leper.

Luke 19:38,40 - Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. If these were silent, the very stones would cry out.

John 5:18 - Jesus claimed to be God. The Jews knew this because Jesus called God His Father and made Himself equal to God. This is why Jesus was crucified.

John 5:21-22 - Jesus gives life and says that all judgment has been given to Him by the Father.

John 5:23 - Jesus equates Himself with the Father, "whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."

John 6:38 - Jesus says, "For I have come down from heaven."

John 8:12 - Jesus says "I am the light of the world." - 1 John 1:5 - God is light and in him there is no darkness at all.

John 8:19 - Jesus says, "if you knew me, you would know my Father also."

John 8:23 - Jesus says that He is not of this world. Only God is not of this world.

John 8:58 - Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I AM." Exodus 3:14 - "I AM" means "Yahweh," which means God.

John 10:18 - Jesus says He has the power to lay down His life and take it up again - Gal. 1:1 - God raised Jesus to life.

John 10:30 - Jesus says, "I and the Father are one." They are equal. The Jews even claimed Jesus made Himself equal to God. Jesus' statement in John 14:28, "the Father is greater than I," cannot contradict John 10:30 (the Word of God is never in conflict). Jesus' statement in John 14:28 simply refers to His human messianic role as servant and slave, which He, and not the Father or the Holy Spirit, undertook in the flesh.

John 10:36 - again, Jesus claims that He is "the Son of God."

John 10:38; 14:10 - "the Father is in me and I am in the Father" means the Father and Son are equal.

John 12:45 - Jesus says, "He who sees Me sees Him who sent Me." God the Father is equal to God the Son.

John 13:13 - Jesus says, "You call me Teacher and Lord and you are right for so I AM."

John 14:6 - Jesus says "I am the way, and the truth and the life." Only God is the way, the truth and the life.

John 16:15 - Jesus says, "all things that the Father has are Mine." Jesus has everything God has which makes Him God.

John 16:28 - Jesus says that "He came from the Father and has come into the world."

John 17:5,24 - Jesus' desire is for us to behold His glory which He had before the foundation of the world.

John 20:17 - Jesus distinguishes His relationship to the Father from our relationship by saying "My Father and your Father."

Rev. 1:8 - God says He is the "Alpha and the Omega." In Rev. 22:13, Jesus also says He is the "Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end." The only possible conclusion one can reach is that Jesus is equal to the Lord God.

Rev. 1:17 - Jesus says again, "I am the First and the Last." This is in reference to the God prophesied by Isaiah in Isaiah 44:6, 41:4, 48:12.

Rev. 1:18 - Jesus, the First and the Last, also says "I died, and behold, I am alive for evermore." When did God ever die? He only did in the humanity of Jesus Christ our Lord and God. Rev. 2:8 - Jesus again says, "The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life." When did God die and come to life? In our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

IV. Jesus' Miracles Testify that He is God
Matt. 1:23; Mark 1:27,35 - Jesus was conceived in the virginal womb of the Blessed Mother.



Matt. 3:16-17; Mark 1:10-11; John 1:32 - God's Spirit descends upon Jesus and the Father declares Jesus to be His Son.

Matt. 4:23-24; 9:35;15:30; Mark 1:34; 3:10; 6:5; Luke 4:40; 7:10; 13:13; 14:4; John 4:52 - Jesus miraculously cures illness and disease.

Matt. 7:35 - Jesus cures a deaf person with a speech impediment.

Matt. 8:3; Mark 1:41; Luke 5:13; 17:14 - Jesus cures leprosy.

Matt. 9:21-22; Mark 5:27-34; Luke 8:44 - the hem of Jesus' cloak cures the woman with the hemorrhage. See also Matt. 14:36.

Matt. 8:13; 9:7; Mark 2:9; Luke 5:25 - Jesus cures those who are paralyzed.

Matt. 8:15; Mark 1:31; Luke 4:39 - Jesus cures Peter's mother-in-law's fever.

Matt. 8:26; Mark 4:39; Luke 8:24 - Jesus calms the storm. Even the wind and sea obey Him.

Matt. 8:32; 9:33; 12:22; 15:28; 17:18; Mark 1:26,34; 3:11; 5:13; 7:30; 9:26; Luke 4:35,41; 8:33; 9:42; 11:14 - Jesus has power over demons.

Matt. 9:4; 12:25; Luke 6:8; 11:17 - Jesus knows people's thoughts.

Matt. 9:25; Mark 5:24; John 11:44 - Jesus raises people from the dead.

Matt. 9:30; 12:22; 20:34; 21:14; Mark 8:25; 10:52; Luke 7:21; 18:42; John 9:11 - Jesus cures the blind.

Matt. 12:13; Mark 3:5; Luke 6:10 - Jesus cures the man with the withered hand.

Matt. 14:19-20; 5:36-37; Mark 6:41-42; 8:7-8; Luke 9:16-17; John 6:11 - Jesus multiplies the loaves and fish and feeds the crowd of thousands.

Matt. 14:26; Mark 6:48; John 6:19 - Jesus walks on water.

Matt. 15:21; 16:21; 17:9,22; 20:18-19; 26:2; Mark 10:33-34; Luke 9:44; 17:25; 18:32-34 - Jesus predicts His passion.

Matt. 17:2; Mark 9:2; Luke 9:29 - Jesus is transfigured in glory.

Matt. 17:27 - Jesus miraculously has a shekel appear in the mouth of a fish.

Matt. 21:2-3; Mark 11:2; Luke 19:30 - Jesus predicts that a colt would be available for Him.

Matt. 21:19; Mark 11:14,20 - Jesus curses the fig tree and it withers.

Matt. 24:34; Mark 13:2; Luke 21:32 - Jesus predicts the fall of Jerusalem which occurred in 70 A.D.

Matt. 26:21-25; Mark 14:18-20; Luke 22:21; John 13:21,26 - Jesus predicts Judas' betrayal.

Matt. 26:26-28; Mk. 14:22,24; Luke 22;19-20; 1 Cor. 11:24-25 - Jesus changes bread and wine into His body and blood.

Matt. 26:34; Mark 14:30; Luke 22:34; John 13:38 - Jesus predicts Peter's denial.

Matt. 27:51-54; Mark 15:38-39 - supernatural events occur at Jesus' death.

Matt. 28:9; Mark 16:9,12,14; Luke 7:14-15; 8:54-55; 24:5,31,36; John 20:14,19,26; 21:1-14 - Jesus rises from the dead.

Mark 14:13; Luke 22:10 - Jesus predicts that a man carrying a jug of water will show them the furnished room for the Passover.

Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51 - Jesus ascends into heaven.

Luke 2:13-14 - the angels praise Jesus' birth.

Luke 5:7; John 21:6 - Jesus directs the miraculous catch of fish.

Luke 24:31 - Jesus has the ability to vanish out of sight.

John 2:9 - Jesus changes water into wine.

John 13:36; 21:18 - Jesus predicts Peter's death. Peter was martyred in Rome around 67 A.D. John 20:19,26 - Jesus has the ability to appear even when the doors are locked.

 

[Debi1967]

V. Jesus Christ is Worshiped

Rev. 4:9-11; 5:8,12-14; 7:11-12 - both Jesus and the Father are worshiped. The Greek word for worship is "proskuneo" which always means the worship of God.



Matt. 2:2,11 - the magi who came to see the newborn Jesus came to worship Him.

Matt. 8:2 - a leper came to Jesus and worshiped Him without rebuke.

Matt. 14:33 - the apostles who were in the boat worshiped Jesus without rebuke.

Matt. 28:9 - Jesus' disciples took His feet and worshiped Him without rebuke.

Matt. 28:17 - Jesus' disciples saw Him and then worshiped Him.

Mark 5:6 - the man with the unclean spirit ran to Jesus and worshiped Him.

Luke 1:11 - Mary accepts Elizabeth's declaration "the Mother of my Lord" = the Mother of my God (Elizabeth used the word "Adonai" which means "Lord God").

Luke 24:52 - as Jesus ascended into heaven, the apostles worshiped Him.

John 9:38 - the blind man who was cured by Jesus worshiped Him. John 20:28 - Jesus accepts Thomas' statement "My Lord and my God!" Literally, "the Lord of me and the God of me!" (in Greek, "Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou").

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html

THE HOLY SPIRIT



I. The Holy Spirit is God

Job 33:4 - "The Spirit of God made me and the breath of the Almighty has given me life." Only God is the creator of life.



Matt. 12:31; Luke 12:10 - Jesus says blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Only God can be blasphemed.

John 4:24 - God is a spirit (the Holy Spirit) and they who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. Only God is worshiped.

John 14:16,26; 15:26; 16:7 - the Father and the Son send the Counselor, the Holy Spirit - Isaiah 9:6 - the Counselor is Mighty God.

Acts 5:3-4,9 - Peter tells Ananias that he lied to the Holy Spirit, and that he has not lied to men, but to God (the Holy Spirit).

Acts 28:25-27 - the Holy Spirit said "Go to this people and say..." - Isaiah 6:8-10 - the Lord said "Go to this people and say..."

Rom. 8:11 - the Spirit that raised Jesus up from the dead - Gal. 1:1 - God the Father raised Jesus from the dead.

1 Cor. 2:10 - the Spirit searches everything - Jer. 17:10 - the Lord searches the heart.

1 Cor. 3:16 - you are the temple of God - 1 Cor. 6:19 - you are the temple of the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor. 12:4-6 - there are varieties of gifts but the same Spirit, varieties of service but the same Lord, varieties of working but same God.

2 Cor. 3:6,17 - we are ministers of the covenant in the Spirit which gives life. Now the Lord (God) is the Spirit.

Heb. 10:16 - the Holy Spirit said this is the covenant I will make - Jer. 31:33 - the Lord said this is the covenant I will make.

1 Peter 1:2 - we are sanctified by the Holy Spirit - 1 Thess. 5:23 - the very God of peace sanctifies you wholly.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_holy_spirit.html#top




II. The Holy Spirit is a Person

Luke 12:12 - the Holy Spirit will teach you in that hour what you ought to say. He (the Holy Spirit) teaches the faithful.



John 14:17 - the world neither sees Him or knows Him ("Him" is referring to the Holy Spirit). You know Him for He dwells with you.

John 14:26 - the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all I have said to you.

John 15:26 - the Spirit, who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness to me. He = the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a person, not a thing.

John 16:7 - if I do not go, the Counselor will not come to you. But if I go, I (Jesus) will send Him to you.

John 16:7 - this verse also proves the filioque (that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son). The Father isn’t just loving the Son; the Son is loving the Father in return, in the same Spirit of love. Therefore, the Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son.

John 16: 8 - when He (the Holy Spirit) comes, He will convince the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment.

John 16:13-14 - when the Spirit of truth comes He will guide you into all truth. He will speak, He will declare and He will glorify.

Acts 8:29; 10:19-20; 11:12;13:2; Rev. 22:17 - the Holy Spirit speaks to us like a human person.

Acts 15:25,28 - it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us. The Holy Spirit, as a divine person, thinks and makes judgments.

Rom. 8:26 - the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words. It is the Spirit Himself, not itself.

Rom. 8:16 - it is the Spirit Himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God. The Spirit is a person.

Rom. 15:30 - I appeal to you by the Lord Jesus and the love of the Spirit. Only persons, rational beings, can love.

1 Cor. 12:11 - the Holy Spirit apportions His gifts to each one individually as He wills. He is the third person of the Godhead. 2 Cor. 13:14 - the Holy Spirit can have fellowship with the faithful like a human person. Eph. 4:30 - the Holy Spirit can be grieved, just as human persons can be grieved.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_holy_spirit.html

 

[thereselittleflower]

rather than replying directly to those who quoted me, i think its better i make a couple of things clear.

i do not believe that things are a clear-cut as most christians seem to make out. heaven and hell - who knows? what is truth - who knows? what i do believe however are my experiences of god through the holy spirit, and the commitment to jesus and god that lead me to those experiences.

in my experience what god has shown me and how he has helped me have had nothing whatsoever to do with doctrines, and nothing to do with ideas about the nature of jesus.

it is not necessary to believe certain things about jesus to experience god. isnt it asking anough that people believe that somehow a person is allied to god in such a way that you can call on his name in prayer?

please understand that i am not saying that i dont believe that jesus isnt "lord", because i do. what i am questioning is the idea the he is somehow fully god, which is even itself contradicted by the bible (which itself has many contradictions).

what i am saying is that understanding, technical prowess is not what salvation is all about. what it is about is the miracle that god became man and wants to have a relationship with us. it is about the experience of that relationship[ here and now, and god helping others through us. it is not about stupid thousand year old doctrines that wouldnt stand up in any court. and it is certainly not about "having to believe them or you go to hell". and they are not "the core of the christian faith". the core of the christian faith is jesus, not theories about him.

i originally asked if anyone understands the trinity, clearly they do not. i also asked why it was necessary to believe in it, the only answers that i have had are that either it isnt (correct lol) or that he is but with no reason given.

if it is necessary then why is it?

Cleany, I am curious . . . . .


Why do you spell the word "god" with a little "g" when speaking of God?







Peace to all

 

[Debi1967]

I see here that the age old excuse that just because the word trinity does not exist in the Bible then it means that it must not exist.....

Choosing a name to clarify something does not man that the premise of it does not exist.... That has to be the most illogical excuse given. In fact it was one given to me growing up as a JW and then discounted by me early on because we often choose names for things to describe them that are descriptions, meaning that the word meaning itself is what we are getting at and not the word....

How is this for another thing to sink your ship, the Bible that we use today never use to have page numbers, nor verses, nor chapter numbers either those were added to the bible as well.... does this mean that it invalidates the Bible..... In fact the word Bible does not exist in the Bible .... what exists in the Bible are epistles and traditions...

Yet the very same people that discount the word usage of trinity will call the Bible. the Bible..... this seems odd to me that they see it fit to describe the book in such a fashion because of the word meaning and yet when it comes to the word Trinity then there is a big toodoo about that and then there is their excuse for saying it does not exist.

The fact that somethin is descibed by word usage a certain way does not negate it. Expecially when the word itself was not added to the canon. It has not replaced anything therefore does NOT violate Scripture because it does not add to it....

As you can see with the previous posts the existence of a Trinity and the proof of it is overwhelming in the Bible. ESpecially when you take into account the word usage of the time and then translate it properly so that you can correllate when something is being used to describe the Holy Spirit as being God and the Lord Jesus as being God ....

The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures which is the JW Bible is the only Bible I know of that translates the Scripture at John 1:1 differently than we know it

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.

Their's reads like this

In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God and the Word was a god.....

Most notable to this though, is the addition of (a) when in ancient times most writings were devoid of all of these types of conjunctions, therefore one ha to be a very skilled translator in order to know when to add and when not to add something....

The Jw Bible was translated by someone that most notably when asked in court if he knew how to translate to this level said he did not and that he was translating from already translated transcripts. Also this bible was translated in the late 1800's it has not been in existence for hundreds of years or even thousands of years going with the original translations that were done by those that would indeed know what they were doing.... The JWs again say most notably that the Catholic translators of the earlier transcripts had one thing in mind and that was to propogate their agenda.... the problem with this was that the Bible has always been translated the same way and because of this even within the Church at one time there was the Arian heresy, therefore this makes their claim rather moot. It is also the claim of most all others that are not Trinitarians.

Also they have taken out of their Bible this Scripture

1Jo 5:7 And there are Three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.

1Jo 5:8 And there are three that give testimony on earth: the spirit and the water and the blood. And these three are one.

Verse 7 does NOT appear in their Bible .... and in many latter versions of the Bible they condense the verse to read something like this

(ASV) And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

(Darby) For they that bear witness are three:

(ESV) For there are three that testify:

(GNB) There are three witnesses:

When all of the older versions specify who it is that is tesifying..... Even the KJV


(KJV+) For3754 there are1526 three5140 that bear record3140 in1722 heaven,3772 the3588 Father,3962 the3588 Word,3056 and2532 the3588 Holy40 Ghost:4151 and2532 these3778 three5140 are1526 one.1520

(KJV-1611) For there are three that beare record in heauen, the Father, the Word, and the holy Ghost: and these three are one.

(KJVA) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

So you have three different versions of the KJV that say the same thing!


The most naotable of all of these things is that they still have Jesus as being a god!

How is it that we are to serve two Gods? WE CANNOT! We can serve only one, yet in the Bible we are told to serve Jesus and Jesus is worshipped, and the Father said to Worship His son ..... Therefore if this is true then this is illogical and a misnomer ....

 

[Polycarp1]

Debi: About the "three witnesses" passage in I John 5:7, do a search for previous discussions here about "the Johannine Comma." It would appear from the work of competent scholars, conservative and liberal alike, that that passage was a very early gloss added to the text, as opposed to something the Beloved Disciple actually wrote at that point. That does not mean it's wrong; it is definitely a part of the Canonical text, and the Vatican has actually ruled on its accuracy for Catholics. But it is the reason that some versions have moved that to footnote status, trying to give exactly what John himself wrote in the text proper. I think that's worth noting, for clarity's sake. (BTW, this has nothing to do with the JW omission of that verse, but since I just know that the topic will come up, I'm doing a pre-emptive strike in favor of clarifying what is and is not meant by the argument here.)

 

[Debi1967]

Therese, there are no signs in the Forest, otherwise, we could get out ourselves. When you are lost in a forest it only matters that the Forest ranger knows the way out of the Forest and you put your faith in him to lead you out. However, you are correct that we do face many choices. Jesus can turn and say to me, "look at this bridge, we need to cross it to the other side." If I respond, "but Jesus more than just a few boards are missing from that bridge. I am not willing to cross it" then at that moment I have ceased to put my trust in him to lead us out of the forest.

Why could there be no signs? If you saw this lonely sign would it help you out of the forest unless you had a guide to translate it? and what happened if someone was there before and left the sign? So therefore there are many reasons a sign could be in the forest it is in deciphering the sign and recognizing it's meaning that we may need help and in that we need to have to place trust in our guide.....