The Trinity is true

Emun

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I have found a very beautiful and clear proof that Jesus is God. The proof is in the Old Testament, when God commanded Moses to set up the Tent of Meeting and God Himself was present in that Tent (Exodus 40:2, Exodus 40:34). Moses saw God in that Tent, he spoke with him face to face (Exodus 33:11).

What does the Tent of Meeting have to do with Jesus? Well, this event in the OT was an announcement of the incarnation of God. In John 1:14 it says that the Word which is God became flesh and dwelt on the earth. We know that Jesus is the Word and therefore God (Revelation 19:13). The Greek word translated as "dwelt" literally means "to tent". As God in the OT set up His tent to dwell in, God in the NT used a human body as a tent to dwell in.

The person who was in the tent was God. The person who was in the begotten body in Mary was God. Jesus Christ, who was in the begotten body, is God. Everyone who has seen him has seen God. Everyone who spoke with him spoke with God. Everyone who touched him touched God.

Jesus existed before the world was (John 17:5, John 8:57-58) because He is the God who created the world (John 1:10, Colossians 1:16-17).

The Trinity is true.
 

Philip_B

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I am not quite sure that this establishes the Trinity with any authority, (though I do indeed wholeheartedly embrace the doctrine of the Holy Trinity), however, it is a strong argument for the understanding of Chalcedonian Christology as set forth in the Chalcedonian Definition.
 
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YahuahSaves

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Your argument depends on the NT evidence that Jesus is God, so it fails as proof.
John 1:1
Prologue: Christ, the Eternal Word

1 In the beginning the Word already existed.
The Word was with God,
and the Word was God


John 1:10-13

10 He came into the very world he created, but the world didn’t recognize him. 11 He came to his own people, and even they rejected him. 12 But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God. 13 They are reborn—not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God.
 
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Tolworth John

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John 1:1
Prologue: Christ, the Eternal Word

1 In the beginning the Word already existed.
The Word was with God,
and the Word was God


John 1:10-13

10 He came into the very world he created, but the world didn’t recognize him. 11 He came to his own people, and even they rejected him. 12 But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God. 13 They are reborn—not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God.
or Jesus's baptism. John reported he saw the Spirit decending like a dove and God the Father spoke, ' This is My beloved Son.'
 
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Lost Witness

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or Jesus's baptism. John reported he saw the Spirit decending like a dove and God the Father spoke, ' This is My beloved Son.'
"And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” Matthew 3:17
 
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YahuahSaves

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or Jesus's baptism. John reported he saw the Spirit decending like a dove and God the Father spoke, ' This is My beloved Son.'
How does the scripture I quoted have anything to do with Jesus baptism? The scriptures are clear. Jesus is God's Son, and is God. The scriptures say: Let's make man in our image (plural).
 
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Tolworth John

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How does the scripture I quoted have anything to do with Jesus baptism? The scriptures are clear. Jesus is God's Son, and is God. The scriptures say: Let's make man in our image (plural).
Biblical evidence for the trinity.
 
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YahuahSaves

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Biblical evidence for the trinity.
There are plenty, but here are a few:

Genesis 1:1-2
Genesis 1:24-27
John 1:1-5
Colossians 1:15-17
Revelation 13:8
John 1:29
2 Corinthians 13:14
Matthew 28:19
John 10:30
1 Corinthians 8:6
Colossians 2:9
2 Corinthians 3:17
Isaiah 9:6
Matthew 1:23
Luke 3:21-22
1 John 5:7-8
John 8:58
Philippians 2:6-7
Colossians 2:9
John 14:20
John 15:26
 
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helmut

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How does the scripture I quoted have anything to do with Jesus baptism? The scriptures are clear. Jesus is God's Son, and is God. The scriptures say: Let's make man in our image (plural).
Let me add: The image of God is then described as man and woman (Gen 1:27). Man and woman are one flesh (Gen 2:24), as God is one (Deut 6:4, shma yiŝra'el). Indeed, when the Jewish Rabbi Maimonides (AKA RamBaM) explained the Torah, he used a different word for the unity of God as the word in Gen 2:24; Deut 6:4, in order to stress that God is monolithic and not trinitarian or anything like that.

Some contend Gen 1:26 is a plurale maiestatis, but a plurale maiestatis in the strict sense (as in Gen 1:26) is not semitic. You can find it in the Bible only in cited edicts of Persian kings (the Persians were Aryans, hence indo-european). In the Qur'an, you can find plurale maiestatis because the Arabs by then had borrowed it from the Greek (or Romans?).
 
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helmut

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Biblical evidence for the trinity.
The trinity doctrine is not a simple proposition, but rather a bunch of statements from the Bible, which seem to contradict one another, together with a »theory« (or whatever term you find appropriate) to explain why there is no contradiction. The Shield of the Trinity combines the statements into one graphic. Only the statement that there is only one (true) God is not contained in it.

Since in discussions with non-trinitarians it is often useful to discern the terms God and YHWH, let me add the following statements:
  • The Father is YHWH
  • Jesus is YHWH
  • The Spirit is YHWH
  • YHWH is one
I omit redundant statements like YHWH is the Father, and the last statement is important to stress that there is only one God. (BTW, if you understand »YHWH/God is the father« meaning »YHWH/God is only the Father, not the Son or Spirit«, the statement is wrong).

As to the statements, every one can be find in the Bible, directly or by inference. The most frequent one is »Jesus is God/YHWH«, the least frequent one is »The Spirit is YHWH« (I only know one instance, 2.Kor 3,17, combined with Ex 34:34, and looking at context). This tells us something about the importance of these statements.

Often christology is taken as part of the trinity doctrine, this contains the statements that (1) Jesus is 100% (true) man, (2) Jesus is 100% (true) God, and (3) God is not a man (unmixed natures in traditional terminology).

I will not heap up biblical evidence for every statement of the trinity doctrine, but if anyone can't see evidence for some statements of the shield or those mentioned here, I can submit it.

As to the »theory« that systematizes these statements and make them non-contradictional: it is somewhat outside the biblical evidence that has no such system. So whether one speaks of three "persons" or of three hypostases (strictly speaking, "person" is not the same as Greek hypostasis, or Latin persona) is of minor importance to me. But adherence to the Biblical teaching (the sentences the trinity doctrine is based upon) is important and decisive whether one believes in the Trinity.
 
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YahuahSaves

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Let me add: The image of God is then described as man and woman (Gen 1:27). Man and woman are one flesh (Gen 2:24), as God is one (Deut 6:4, shma yiŝra'el). Indeed, when the Jewish Rabbi Maimonides (AKA RamBaM) explained the Torah, he used a different word for the unity of God as the word in Gen 2:24; Deut 6:4, in order to stress that God is monolithic and not trinitarian or anything like that.

Some contend Gen 1:26 is a plurale maiestatis, but a plurale maiestatis in the strict sense (as in Gen 1:26) is not semitic. You can find it in the Bible only in cited edicts of Persian kings (the Persians were Aryans, hence indo-european). In the Qur'an, you can find plurale maiestatis because the Arabs by then had borrowed it from the Greek (or Romans?).
I don’t get what you're trying to say. What part of the 3-in-1 Godhead do you disagree with? Do you believe the Son of God is God, or not?
 
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Tolworth John

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The trinity doctrine is not a simple proposition, but rather a bunch of statements from the Bible, which seem to contradict one another,
Yes the bible does not use the word trinity, yet it can be clearly seen in both the ot and the nt that God is more than just one.

For me the chief evidence is Gods statements about this is My beloved Son.
 
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helmut

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I don’t get what you're trying to say. What part of the 3-in-1 Godhead do you disagree with? Do you believe the Son of God is God, or not?
I believe in the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I tried to make an addition to what you said, strengthening your point. That the Jew Maimonides had to deviate from the text of the shma yiŝra'el in order to avoid an interpretation which fits to the trinity doctrine, and that Gen 1:26 is no plurale maiestatis, but rather a real plural.

Sorry if this was so unclear that you did not get the point(s). See post#11 to what I believe in detail.
 
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YahuahSaves

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I believe in the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I tried to make an addition to what you said, strengthening your point. That the Jew Maimonides had to deviate from the text of the shma yiŝra'el in order to avoid an interpretation which fits to the trinity doctrine, and that Gen 1:26 is no plurale maiestatis, but rather a real plural.

Sorry if this was so unclear that you did not get the point(s). See post#11 to what I believe in detail.
Sorry, perhaps it was some of your wording. It is true that the Holy Trinity is not explicitly mentioned in the scriptures, but it is a concept that defines (in part) the aspects of God that are found throughout scripture, the Father, Son & Spirit.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Let me add: The image of God is then described as man and woman (Gen 1:27). Man and woman are one flesh (Gen 2:24), as God is one (Deut 6:4, shma yiŝra'el). Indeed, when the Jewish Rabbi Maimonides (AKA RamBaM) explained the Torah, he used a different word for the unity of God as the word in Gen 2:24; Deut 6:4, in order to stress that God is monolithic and not trinitarian or anything like that.

Some contend Gen 1:26 is a plurale maiestatis, but a plurale maiestatis in the strict sense (as in Gen 1:26) is not semitic. You can find it in the Bible only in cited edicts of Persian kings (the Persians were Aryans, hence indo-european). In the Qur'an, you can find plurale maiestatis because the Arabs by then had borrowed it from the Greek (or Romans?).
Biblical Hebrew can't have a plural of majesty, because not ANE/Ancient Near East languages did. And the term came into existence in the 13th century CE, when kings linked themselves to God and said "you may come into our presence", "you may leave us". So it'd be projecting a later term and projecting it back.

Joüon & Muraoka (2006: A Grammar of Biblical Hebrew. Rome: Gregorian & Biblical Press) state plainly (§114eN):
The we of majesty does not exist in Hebrew.

"

B. Understanding the various terms used in this discussion:

  1. Plural of Majesty comes from the Latin, "pluralis majestaticus" and is also known as "singular of intensity".
  2. "Royal we" "we are not amused" (Queen Victoria)

C. History of the "Plural of Majesty" argument:
Queen Elizabeth 1st would not be amused...
about they way Anti-Trinitarians twist every plural reference to God as a mere "Royal We". After all, Elizabeth was a Trinitarian, and would not be one bit amused that her own words were being used to trash the very trinity she believed in! "Let US make man in OUR image" (Gen 1:26) cannot be "Plural of Majesty" because this poetic device did not even exist in scripture until after the Old Testament was completed. The apostolic fathers had never heard of "plural of majesty", much less believe it. They unanimously interpreted Gen 1:26 as the Father speaking to the Son.

There are no examples in the either the Old or New Testament of Plural of Majesty. At the end of this document, we refute 5 texts that anti-Trinitarian say contain Plural of Majesty."Trinity: "Plural of Majesty", "pluralis majestaticus", "singular of intensity", the "Royal we".
 
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Daniel Marsh

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chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1307&context=auss

"
The Plural of Majesty Is a Late Convention of Speech

Although some modern writers – Jewish, Christian, and otherwise – can be cited in favor of the existence of such a figure of speech during the period of Biblical composition,2 and who also see it as explaining the divine use of the plural pronouns found in Genesis and Isaiah, other sources (and more careful scholarship) can just as easily be cited saying otherwise, pointing out that: 1) there are no unequivocal examples of the plural of majesty ever being employed in the Ancient Near East in the B.C. period that coincides with the writings of the Old Testament; and 2) even if there were bona fide instances, there is no example that such a figure of speech existed in Jewish culture of the relevant time period(s) or that it was ever employed by the Biblical authors. For example, Professor Tayler Lewis (LL.D), a classical and Biblical scholar, after mentioning several different interpretations on offer, said the following about the plural of majesty:

Of all these views the pluralis majestaticus has the least support. It is foreign to the usus loquendi of the earliest language; it is degrading instead of honoring to Deity, and Aben Ezra shows that the few seeming examples brought from the Hebrew Scriptures, such as Num. xxii. 6; Dan. ii. 36, do not bear it out – the latter, moreover, being an Aramaic mode of speech. If we depart at all from the patristic view of an allusion to a plurality of idea in the Deity [i.e. the Trinity], the next best is that of Maimonides ...3
Another case in point is Emil Rödiger (*) who was professor for oriental languages at the University of Halle and the student of the well-known German Orientalist and Biblical Critic, H. F. W. Gesenius, who is credited with inaugurating the scientific approach to Semitic Philology. After the death of Gesenius, Rödiger was appointed editor for the next editions of Gesenius’ Hebrew Grammar. In this capacity, he also added the following footnote that is frequently quoted:

Jewish grammarians call such plurals... plur. virium or virtutum; later grammarians call them plur. excellentiae, magnitudinis, or plur. maiestaticus. This last name may have been suggested by the "we" used by kings when speaking of themselves (cf. already I Macc. 10:19, 11:31); and the plural used by God in Genesis 1:26, and 11:7, Isaiah 6:8 has been incorrectly explained in this way. It is, however, either communicative…, or according to others, an indication of the fullness of power and might…; but it is best explained as a plural of self-deliberation. The use of the plural as a form of respectful address is quite foreign to Hebrew.4 (Emphasis in original; to access online, see here)
Eminent Old Testament scholar Claus Westermann, who was a professor at the University of Heidelberg from 1958-1978, said:

The plural of majesty does not occur in Hebrew ..., so this older explanation has been completely abandoned today; ...5
And for a final example, professor of the Old Testament, Gerhard F. Hasel of Andrews University, stated:

... there are no certain examples of plurals of majesty with either verbs or pronouns ... the verb used in Gn 1:26 (āśāh) is never used with a plural of majesty. There is no linguistic or grammatical basis upon which the ‘us’ can be considered to be a plural of majesty.6

The Plural of Majesty is an Innovative and Ad Hoc Explanation

Consistent with the fact that this convention of speech originated later and is foreign to the writings of the Old Testament, it is evident that this explanation of the passages held no favor among the Jews until sometime after the advent and spread of Christianity. Not only did this explanation appear de novo or from the blue, which shouldn’t have been the case if there was a well-known rule of Hebrew grammar that governed this kind of use of plural pronouns, but it shows that the real motivation for this position was to cut off a particularly powerful line of reasoning that was otherwise open to Christians.

"https://www.answering-islam.org/authors/rogers/plural_majesty.html
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Jonaitis

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Biblical Hebrew can't have a plural of majesty, because not ANE/Ancient Near East languages did. And the term came into existence in the 13th century CE, when kings linked themselves to God and said "you may come into our presence", "you may leave us". So it'd be projecting a later term and projecting it back.
Actually, the Quran employs it when Allah speaks. It goes further back before the 13th century...
 
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