The Trinity in Catholicism vs. Orthodoxy

Constantine the Sinner

Well-Known Member
Aug 11, 2016
2,059
676
United States
✟31,259.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Celibate
Besides Papal authority, the main original dividing factor between the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics was differing conceptions of the Holy Trinity, reflected by the Filioque (there is a lot more separating us today, but these were the two issues that started the division).

The crux of these conceptions has to do with understanding of the term "essence" (or "substance" in Latin). The Nicene Creed, at Saint Athanasius's urging, says the Son is "homoousion" (Greek for the "same in essence") as the Father. For the East, the Cappadocian Fathers, "essence" was a rather simple term, it just meant qualities common to a class (and that class in this case is God). Unlimited, eternal and all-powerful are a few of these qualities. What makes God one is that he has only one will and activity, the Father's, which is by extension the Son's the Spirit's, both of whom eternally originate from the Father: the Son is eternally begotten from the Father, the Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father. These, rather than "qualities common to a class", are "existential properties"--that is, characteristics unique to a person; the Son is begotten, but the Father is not; so that is an existential property, not an essential quality; essential qualities are those that define all three persons of the Trinity as God, and not all three persons are begotten, only one. Similarly, the Father begets the Son, and is the only member of the Trinity who does so, therefore it is his existential property, his personal property, not his essential quality, because all three persons have the same essential qualities.

Therefore, for the East, "essence" was never intended as some new philosophical, speculative statement on God, but simply a technical term showing the Son and the Holy Spirit are divine in the exact same way the Father is: they are eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and so on. They also have the same activity as the Father, which means they created the universe.

However, some theologians in the West were heavily influenced by Plato, and took "essence" as something more concrete, similar to Plato's theory of forms. The idea was the essence was something existing on its own in an eternal way, and something's existence is predicated upon its essence, which is the exact opposite of the East (there is no "humanity" without humans). God's essence was taken to be something that exists distinctly and manifests itself in three relations with itself; in the East, on the other hand, God's "essence" is rather and simply a description of the qualities shared by the Holy Trinity, who are three subjects united in will and activity, the Father's (John 5:19).

The Western conception lead them to state that because the Holy Spirit comes from God's essence, it must proceed from the Father and the Son as one principle/origin (since the Father and the Son are the same in essence). In the East, this was simply not acceptable, because the Holy Spirit does not proceed from an essence--an essence is not something that exists independently, it is a description of the common qualities of the persons. Furthermore, even if the Western, Platonic conception of the Trinity were correct, the Spirit's essence is the same as the Father's, so if he proceeded from the Father's essence, he would proceed equally from his own. To say the Spirit proceeds from the Father's essence, but not his own, would be to say the Spirit has a different essence than the Father does.
 
Last edited:

zippy2006

Dragonsworn
Nov 9, 2013
6,835
3,410
✟245,039.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
  1. Essences exist on their own.
  2. The Holy Spirit proceeds from an essence.
These two central claims seem to require support, for I am not convinced they accurately represent Western Christianity. Which theologians promoted such ideas, and where did they do so?

Aquinas gives a reason for the filioque: the persons are distinguished only by their relations, and distinction can happen only through opposite relations. This is because there is no matter or any other principle of individuation in God. For example, the Father is not the Son because that which begets is not that which is begotten. Let's look at your own explanation:

...the Son is eternally begotten from the Father, the Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father.

Since the relations are not opposed, the persons cannot be distinguished. We could ask the question, "Who proceeds from the Father?" The answer is ambiguous: both the Son and the Spirit are said to proceed from the Father. But this means that there is no way to distinguish Son from Spirit, which means that the Son and the Spirit are one, which means that the Trinity no longer exists.

The filioque provides the necessary way to distinguish the Son from the Spirit. The Son is that which proceeds from the Father. The Spirit is that which proceeds from the Father and the Son. (John 16:14)
 
Upvote 0

HereIStand

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jul 6, 2006
4,080
3,083
✟317,987.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Sometime ago, I read Augustine's The Trinity, and wanted to share a few quotes related to the procession of the Holy Spirit from both the Father and the Son. These are from Book IV, chapter 20,

1) As, therefore, the Father begot, the Son is begotten; so the Father sent, the Son was sent. But in like manner as He who begot and He who was begotten, so both He who sent and He who was sent, are one, since the Father and the Son are one. So also the Holy Spirit is one with them, since these three are one.

2) Neither can we say that the Holy Spirit does not also proceed from the Son, for the same Spirit is not without reason said to be the Spirit both of the Father and of the Son. Nor do I see what else He intended to signify, when He breathed on the face of the disciples, and said, "Receive the Holy Ghost."

3) For the Spirit of God is one, the Spirit of the Father and of the Son, the Holy Spirit, who works all in all...That then which the Lord says—"Whom I will send unto you from the Father," — shows the Spirit to be both of the Father and of the Son; because, also, when He had said, "Whom the Father will send," He added also, "in my name."
 
  • Like
Reactions: zippy2006
Upvote 0

Constantine the Sinner

Well-Known Member
Aug 11, 2016
2,059
676
United States
✟31,259.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Celibate
  1. Essences exist on their own.
  2. The Holy Spirit proceeds from an essence.
These two central claims seem to require support, for I am not convinced they accurately represent Western Christianity. Which theologians promoted such ideas, and where did they do so?

Aquinas gives a reason for the filioque: the persons are distinguished only by their relations, and distinction can happen only through opposite relations. This is because there is no matter or any other principle of individuation in God. For example, the Father is not the Son because that which begets is not that which is begotten. Let's look at your own explanation:



Since the relations are not opposed, the persons cannot be distinguished. We could ask the question, "Who proceeds from the Father?" The answer is ambiguous: both the Son and the Spirit are said to proceed from the Father. But this means that there is no way to distinguish Son from Spirit, which means that the Son and the Spirit are one, which means that the Trinity no longer exists.

The filioque provides the necessary way to distinguish the Son from the Spirit. The Son is that which proceeds from the Father. The Spirit is that which proceeds from the Father and the Son. (John 16:14)
Ratramnus said it explicitly in his Against the Objections of the Greeks who Slandered the Roman Church, which was a response to Photius.

Aquinas also testifies--"substantive" being, theologically, a synonymous for "essential"--: Therefore, we must say that, although this word "principle" signifies a property, it does so after the manner of a substantive[...]Therefore, as the Father and the Son are one God, by reason of the unity of the form that is signified by this word "God"; so they are one principle of the Holy Ghost by reason of the unity of the property that is signified in this word "principle."

Your quote by Aquinas further bears witness to the Romish position. Aquinas draws no existential distinction between the Son and the Spirit, only a relational one. If he drew an existential distinction, what he's talking about wouldn't be an issue. For Aquinas, God is an essence relating to himself: "in Him essence does not differ from existence. Therefore His essence is His existence." [Part 1, Question 3, Article 4).

We consider this to be Sabellianism. God is essentially one, but existentially three. Now perhaps you can see why the Filioque is a problem.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Constantine the Sinner

Well-Known Member
Aug 11, 2016
2,059
676
United States
✟31,259.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Celibate
Sometime ago, I read Augustine's The Trinity, and wanted to share a few quotes related to the procession of the Holy Spirit from both the Father and the Son. These are from Book IV, chapter 20,

1) As, therefore, the Father begot, the Son is begotten; so the Father sent, the Son was sent. But in like manner as He who begot and He who was begotten, so both He who sent and He who was sent, are one, since the Father and the Son are one. So also the Holy Spirit is one with them, since these three are one.

2) Neither can we say that the Holy Spirit does not also proceed from the Son, for the same Spirit is not without reason said to be the Spirit both of the Father and of the Son. Nor do I see what else He intended to signify, when He breathed on the face of the disciples, and said, "Receive the Holy Ghost."

3) For the Spirit of God is one, the Spirit of the Father and of the Son, the Holy Spirit, who works all in all...That then which the Lord says—"Whom I will send unto you from the Father," — shows the Spirit to be both of the Father and of the Son; because, also, when He had said, "Whom the Father will send," He added also, "in my name."
The Spirit proceeds from the Son like the Son is begotten of the Spirit; that is, Son was begotten of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, but that is a very different sort of begetting than his being begotten of the Father. We would not say the Son is begotten of the Spirit and the Father as one principle, because that simply isn't the case.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

zippy2006

Dragonsworn
Nov 9, 2013
6,835
3,410
✟245,039.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Now perhaps you can see why the Filioque is a problem.

How could I? You didn't quote Ratramnus, nor did you give any indication of what an "existential distinction" might be. From what source are you getting your information?
 
Upvote 0

Constantine the Sinner

Well-Known Member
Aug 11, 2016
2,059
676
United States
✟31,259.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Celibate
How could I? You didn't quote Ratramnus, nor did you give any indication of what an "existential distinction" might be. From what source are you getting your information?
"The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father because he flows from his substance [Procedit Spiritus sanctus a Patre, illius quia de substantia manat] … and just as the Son received his substance from the Father by being begotten, so also he received from the Father the ability to send the Spirit of Truth from himself through proceeding…. For just as the Father and the Son are of one substance, so too by procession from both did the Holy Spirit receive his consubstantial existence [sic et de utroque procedendo Spiritus sanctus accepit consubstantialitatis existentiam]."


An existential distinction means a distinction in existence, as opposed to one existence. I'm unsure as to how I can be any plainer here.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

zippy2006

Dragonsworn
Nov 9, 2013
6,835
3,410
✟245,039.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
"The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father because he flows from his substance [Procedit Spiritus sanctus a Patre, illius quia de substantia manat] … and just as the Son received his substance from the Father by being begotten, so also he received from the Father the ability to send the Spirit of Truth from himself through proceeding…. For just as the Father and the Son are of one substance, so too by procession from both did the Holy Spirit receive his consubstantial existence [sic et de utroque procedendo Spiritus sanctus accepit consubstantialitatis existentiam]."

I don't understand how this proves that Ratramnus believes 1) that essences exist on their own, or 2) that the Holy Spirit proceeds from an essence. I grant that he says the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son because they are of one substance. Is that what you meant when you said the Spirit proceeds from an essence?

An existential distinction means a distinction in existence, as opposed to one existence. I'm unsure as to how I can be any plainer here.

How is this supposed to answer Aquinas? To say that there is a mysterious "existential distinction" between the Son and the Spirit seems to beg the question. They have different existences? The Catholics believe they have different existences too, and they believe that the filioque is necessary to ground the distinction. The question is: How do you distinguish the Spirit from the Son without the filioque? You seem to be saying, "There is an existential distinction." But I don't see how that is an answer at all. What is the existential distinction based upon?

I have a feeling we are talking past one another.
 
Upvote 0

Constantine the Sinner

Well-Known Member
Aug 11, 2016
2,059
676
United States
✟31,259.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Celibate
I don't understand how this proves that Ratramnus believes 1) that essences exist on their own, or 2) that the Holy Spirit proceeds from an essence. I grant that he says the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son because they are of one substance. Is that what you meant when you said the Spirit proceeds from an essence?

Essence and substance are the same thing in Christian theology, ya goof. The Nicene Creed translated the Greek "ousia" as "substance" in Latin, and Ratramnus says here, "The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father because he flows from his substance".

How is this supposed to answer Aquinas? To say that there is a mysterious "existential distinction" between the Son and the Spirit seems to beg the question. They have different existences? The Catholics believe they have different existences too,

Incorrect, since Aquinas identifies God's existence with his essence, and there is no essential distinction between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, as per the Nicene Creed, which says the Son is "the same in essence" as the Father.

The formulas are as follows: Orthodox believe God's Persons are distinct in existence, with his essence simply being the qualities common to these Persons. Catholics believe God's essence is distinct in existence, with the persons being solely relations proper to this essence.

and they believe that the filioque is necessary to ground the distinction. The question is: How do you distinguish the Spirit from the Son without the filioque? You seem to be saying, "There is an existential distinction." But I don't see how that is an answer at all. What is the existential distinction based upon?

One is begotten, one proceeds. We consider the distinction between those two to be real, but mystical, not analytical.

We believe there is only one principle of the Trinity, the Father. Catholics believe there to be two principles: the Father (the principle of the Father and the Son), and the Father/Son (the principle of the Spirit).
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,601
12,132
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,182,091.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I grant that he says the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son because they are of one substance. Is that what you meant when you said the Spirit proceeds from an essence?
Does that not then require that the Holy Spirit proceeds from itself, since the Father, Son AND Holy Spirit are of one substance? Gets a bit silly, doesn't it.
 
Upvote 0

zippy2006

Dragonsworn
Nov 9, 2013
6,835
3,410
✟245,039.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Essence and substance are the same thing in Christian theology, ya goof. The Nicene Creed translated the Greek "ousia" as "substance" in Latin, and Ratramnus says here, "The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father because he flows from his substance".

But your earlier quote differs from the one you give now. Whatever Ratramnus said, the Catholic position is that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and Son as from one principle. He does not proceed from an essence, and essences do not exist on their own.

We believe there is only one principle of the Trinity, the Father. Catholics believe there to be two principles: the Father (the principle of the Father and the Son), and the Father/Son (the principle of the Spirit).

Catholics do not believe there are two principles, and there are a significant number of Eastern theologians who saw the Son as a cause of the Spirit, though not on the same level as that of the Father.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FenderTL5

Κύριε, ἐλέησον.
Site Supporter
Jun 13, 2016
5,085
5,960
Nashville TN
✟634,456.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
early_church.gif



filioque.gif
 
  • Informative
Reactions: JCFantasy23
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Constantine the Sinner

Well-Known Member
Aug 11, 2016
2,059
676
United States
✟31,259.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Celibate
But your earlier quote differs from the one you give now.

No, it does not, you just didn't include the entire original quote I posted.

Whatever Ratramnus said, the Catholic position is that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and Son as from one principle. He does not proceed from an essence, and essences do not exist on their own.

The entire logic used to justify the one principle thing, is that the Father and the Son share an essence, and therefore this principle is essential. But if this property is not essential, and is rather existential, are you saying there are properties shared by the Father and the Son, which are not shared by the Holy Spirit? Are these personal properties? If so, then how are they common, not personal? Are they essential qualities? If so, then how is the Holy Spirit excluded?


Catholics do not believe there are two principles, and there are a significant number of Eastern theologians who saw the Son as a cause of the Spirit, though not on the same level as that of the Father.
Then they don't really cause him as "one principle," do they? The Father is the greater principle, and the Son is the lessor principle, rather than them both being a single principle.
 
Upvote 0

zippy2006

Dragonsworn
Nov 9, 2013
6,835
3,410
✟245,039.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
The entire logic used to justify the one principle thing, is that the Father and the Son share an essence, and therefore this principle is essential.

Rather, the Father gives everything he has to the Son (John 3:35). Therefore the Son has the power to spirate the Spirit, just as the the Father does. Yet the Son has this from the Father, the ultimate principle of the Trinity.

But if this property is not essential, and is rather existential, are you saying there are properties shared by the Father and the Son, which are not shared by the Holy Spirit? Are these personal properties? If so, then how are they common, not personal? Are they essential qualities? If so, then how is the Holy Spirit excluded?

The Son has no power to generate itself, nor does the Spirit have a power to spirate itself.

Then they don't really cause him as "one principle," do they? The Father is the greater principle, and the Son is the lessor principle, rather than them both being a single principle.

I don't know the Eastern theologians view on that point. Presumably the theology wasn't developed enough for such subtle distinctions. The Catholic view is that the Spirit comes from one principle, and yet an inequality comes into the sources of this principle insofar as the Son is generated by the Father. Since he generates the Son, the Father is the ultimate principle.

I haven't studied this in some time and I have no access to a theological library. I do know that it is a misrepresentation of the Catholic position to say that essences exist on their own, that the Spirit proceeds from an essence, and that the Spirit proceeds from two principles.

To quote Eastern Orthodox bishop Kallistos Ware:

"The filioque controversy which has separated us for so many centuries is more than a mere technicality, but it is not insoluble. Qualifying the firm position taken when I wrote [my book] The Orthodox Church twenty years ago, I now believe, after further study, that the problem is more in the area of semantics and different emphases than in any basic doctrinal differences" (Diakonia, quoted from Elias Zoghby’s A Voice from the Byzantine East, 43).​
 
Upvote 0

Constantine the Sinner

Well-Known Member
Aug 11, 2016
2,059
676
United States
✟31,259.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Celibate
Rather, the Father gives everything he has to the Son (John 3:35). Therefore the Son has the power to spirate the Spirit, just as the the Father does. Yet the Son has this from the Father, the ultimate principle of the Trinity.
See below.

The Son has no power to generate itself, nor does the Spirit have a power to spirate itself.
Then the Father clearly does not give that to the Son. He only gives the Son everything essential. The Spiration of the Spirit is not essential (or else the Spirit would also have that), but a personal property of the Father, like the generation of the Son.

I don't know the Eastern theologians view on that point. Presumably the theology wasn't developed enough for such subtle distinctions. The Catholic view is that the Spirit comes from one principle, and yet an inequality comes into the sources of this principle insofar as the Son is generated by the Father. Since he generates the Son, the Father is the ultimate principle.

Then the principle of the Son is not the same principle of the Father. Saint John of Damascus is very clear on this matter, he says overtly that the Spirit does not proceed from the Son as a principle, but only proceeds through the Son in his mission. Just like the Son is begotten of the Spirit and the Virgin Mary in his mission, but the Spirit is not the Son's principle.

I haven't studied this in some time and I have no access to a theological library. I do know that it is a misrepresentation of the Catholic position to say that essences exist on their own, that the Spirit proceeds from an essence, and that the Spirit proceeds from two principles.

Since Aquinas, as previously quoted, overtly identifies God's essence with his existence, this is not a misrepresentation.

To quote Eastern Orthodox bishop Kallistos Ware:

"The filioque controversy which has separated us for so many centuries is more than a mere technicality, but it is not insoluble. Qualifying the firm position taken when I wrote [my book] The Orthodox Church twenty years ago, I now believe, after further study, that the problem is more in the area of semantics and different emphases than in any basic doctrinal differences" (Diakonia, quoted from Elias Zoghby’s A Voice from the Byzantine East, 43).​
That doesn't concur with the position of canonized Orthodox saints, including Photius the Great, whom His Eminence Kallistos said is an authoritative voice when it comes to Orthodox dogma.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,678
18,559
Orlando, Florida
✟1,262,320.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Politics
US-Democrat
To be simple, the Orthodox believe God has a threefold existence, with one agency, will and operation.

This could be close to tritheism, like Mormonism, without further elaboration (I'm formerly Orthodox so aware of Orthodox theology on this point, but mostly seeking to be the devil's advocate here).

Catholics believe God is unitarian in existence, but relating to himself in three different ways.

Now days we interpret the Nicene Creed in modern language to say the Son is "of one being with the Father". So perhaps this is true. But I don't see how it's heretical. We believe in one God, not three gods.
 
Upvote 0