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The Trinity...how do u explain it?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by xcamm1, Jul 1, 2003.

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  1. JT

    JT Regular Member

    256
    +2
    Christian
    Single
    UK-Conservative
    I accept my source, Abd-Ru-Shin, as being a messanger of God, containing Divinity. Matthew was only a human remember, not Divine authority.I find it amusing why people reject the word of God just for the sake of keeping their religious cults intact. God, remember, does not care for cults. My source is the word of God, as are the words of Christ. There's no contradictions between Abd-Ru-Shin and Christ, how could there be. Both serve God to bring Truth. If you read these books, conviction would set in, and many errors would be cleared.
     
  2. Sinai

    Sinai Well-Known Member

    +15
    Protestant
    Although the Bible clearly teaches that there is one—and only one—God, he has primarily revealed himself as bearing three relationships to man: what Christians generally refer to as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, or simply as the “trinity” (though that term does not appear in the Bible). Could God appear in some other form or reveal himself in some other manner? Of course: God can do whatever he chooses to do; he is not limited except as he chooses to limit himself. The Bible also records instances, for example, when God appeared as whirlwinds, a burning bush, a cloud of glory, and a still small voice. But the primary revelations have been as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

    The verses that have helped me the most are Deuteronomy 6:4 and Exodus 3:14-15.

    Deuteronomy 6:4: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

    This verse, which constitutes the beginning of the Jewish Shema or confession of faith made up of Deut 6:4-9 and 11:13-21 and Num 15:37-41, emphasizes that there is one—and only one—God. It denies both polytheism (there are many gods) and dualism (there are good and evil principles of equal power contending for mastery in the universe).

    Exodus 3: 13-15: Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name? Then what shall I tell them?”
    [SIZE=1/2]14 [/SIZE] God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
    [SIZE=1/2]15 [/SIZE] God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation.”

    I think that the name God gives himself in verse 14 gives us an especially valuable and important window of insight regarding several things about God: First, God is. He exists. Always has; always will. We can make all sorts of theories that argue that God is dead or that he doesn’t exist—but all our arguments does not change the simple fact that there is a God.

    Second, God is. God is yesterday; God is today; God is forever. It’s the eternal present tense. God is not affected by the dimensions that limit us. The dimensions (width, height, depth, time, etc.) are physical properties of the universe in which we live. God created that universe and is not limited by the constraints that limit us. Before time was, God is.

    Third, God is both unchanging and eternal. What God promised to the patriarchs hundreds of years earlier would be fulfilled through Moses.

    And fourth, the phrase “I AM WHO I AM” can also be translated “I AM THAT I AM, I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE, or I AM WHO I CHOOSE TO BE. Again, God is without limits. He can be who he chooses to be, and he can appear in any form he chooses. As I mentioned earlier, God has primarily revealed himself as bearing three relationships to man: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
     
  3. Allen2

    Allen2 Member

    169
    +1
    I am not as comfortable describing the Trinity(I know this term is not in the Bible; nor is the term "Bible" in the Bible :) as a set of relationships, at least as the sum of the matter.
    At Jesus' baptism, the Spirit descends and the Father speaks, "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased", Mk.1:11. At the end of His ministry facing certain death, he prays to God the Father (Luke 22:39-42).
    What I'm working on at this pt, goes something like this: God the Father shares his life and very identity with his son. When the Son has accomplished His Father' will, the Spirit comes to be Christ present with us, as Jesus had promised. The Father and the Son share their life and identity thru the Spirit. There are 3 distinguishable persons sharing one and the same life(the Fathers used the term "nature"). This is work and my brain hurts, but it's a worthy work isn't it? God bless, al
     
  4. Philip

    Philip Orthodoxy: Old School, Hard Core Christianity

    +228
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    If the Father, Son, and Spirit are only relationships, how do your account for those times when God interacted with Himself?
     
  5. Sinai

    Sinai Well-Known Member

    +15
    Protestant
    Are you referring to the times that Jesus Christ prayed to his heavenly Father--or to God's confirming the Son after the baptism--or to something else? And what are your ideas regarding the trinity?
     
  6. layne

    layne ByKr ChYk

    420
    +9
    Pentecostal
    Jesus prayed to his Father, and is sitting at His right hand... so, I don't really think of the Trinity as Jesus, Yahweh, and the HS all being one in the same "person", per se. They are united and working together. I think of the Holy Spirit in the context that if Yahweh were the sun, His rays would be the HS. The HS is the way God and Jesus are connected, and being as the three individual entities are greatly intertwined like this, they form a "Trinity". A unification of three. We can't accept one without the others. This is the only way I can grasp the concept. I wouldn't accept the "trinity" doctrine for the longest time, mainly because people would tell me "Jesus is God" and couldn't explain it further. I would think "Yahweh and Jesus are not one in the same because Jesus wasn't praying to himself". So, as far as my understanding goes, Jesus and the HS are derived of God's essence, so in essence they are the same, but they are also three individuals. Just like the way my sister's and I all came from the womb... We all have the same last name, but we aren't the same person. I'm glad I haven't had to explain this to anyone, especially someone as stubborn as myself. :D
     
  7. Eric Daniel

    Eric Daniel New Member

    13
    +0
    Hey everyone, my view is that the Trinity is three distinct parts, yet all God. I look at it like this, God the Father is far off from human eyes. God the Father lives in Heaven, but we have never interacted with it, and never will while we are living on earth. God the Holy Spirit lives on earth, we live amongst it, but we are so accustomned (sp?) to it that the Holy Spirit becomes something that we take for granted and never think about (like miracles are not the Holy Spirit, but something that was bound to happen by probability). Now, God the Father was like, "Hey humans! Don't you notice me?", and God the Father got no answer from humanity. The Holy Spirit was so use to being ignored that the Holy Spirit was like, "God the Father, I'm so use to this, and I am very sad as well". So God the Father said to the Holy Spirit, "Why don't I send myself to you, in the form of my son, just let my son not be limited by physical limitations that humans are restrained to, that way humans will see that this man is from a higher being." The Holy Spirit responded, "Sure, I can allow this son of yours to do whatever you wish for him to do". And so Jesus was placed on earth and served as a walkway from humans to God the Father. Jesus was able to do all he did through the Holy Spirit, and thus we have the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

    I've always thought this, since Jesus was the "link", so I figure I'm partially correct. I'm also 16 and have much learning to do, so if anyone can help me with my little story, I'd appreciate it.
     
  8. Philip

    Philip Orthodoxy: Old School, Hard Core Christianity

    +228
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    This seems to suggest that Christ was not God in His own right. Are you stating that Christ was a human that had some extra powers because of the Holy Spirit?
     
  9. GJG

    GJG Member

    272
    +1
    The basic problem is that trinitarianism is a non- scriptural doctrine that contradicts a number of biblical teachings and many specific verses of scripture. Also, the most obvious internal contradiction is how there can be three persons of God in any meaningful sense and yet there be only one God.
    Here is compiled a number of other contradictions and problems associated with trinitarianism. Note: This list is not exhaustive but it does give an idea of how much the doctrine deviates from the Bible.
    1. Did Jesus have two fathers? The father is the father of the son (1John1:3), yet the child born of Mary was conceived of the Holy Ghost Matt1:18,20; Luke1:35. Which one is the true father? Some Trinitarians claim that the Holy Ghost was merely the father’s agent in conception-a process they compare to artificial insemination!
    2. How many spirits are there? God the father is a Spirit John4:24, the Lord Jesus is a Spirit 2Cor3:17 and the Holy Spirit is Spirit by definition. Yet there is one Spirit 1Cor12:13; Eph4:4
    3. If Father and Son are co-equal persons, why did Jesus pray to the Father? Matt11:25. Can God pray to God?
    4. Similarly, how can the Son not know as much as the Father? Matt24:36; Mark13:32.
    5. Similarly, how can the Son not have any power except what the Father gives Him? John5:19,30; 6:38.
    6. Similarly, what about other verses from scripture indicating the inequality of the Son and the Father? John8:42; 14:28; 1Cor11:3.
    7. Did ‘God the Son’ die? The Bible shows that the Son died Rom5:10. If so, can God die? Can part of God die?
    8. How can there be an eternal Son when the Son was clearly ‘begotten’, indicating an obvious beginning John3:16; Heb1:5-6.
    9. If the Son is eternal and existed at creation, who was His mother during that time? The Son was made of a woman Gal4:4.
    10. Did ‘God the Son’ surrender His omnipresence while on earth? If so, how could He still be God?
    11. If the Son is eternal and immutable (unchanging), how can the reign of the Son have a ending? 1Cor15:24-28.
    12. Whom do we worship and to whom do we pray? Jesus said to worship the Father John4:21-24, yet Stephen prayed to Jesus Acts7:59-60.
    13. Can there be more than three persons in the Godhead? Obviously the OT does not teach three, but emphasizes the simple fact that there is only one.
    14. Are there three Spirits in a Christian’s heart? Father, Jesus, and the Spirit all dwell within a Christian John14:17,23; Rom8:9; Eph3:14-17. Yet there is only one Spirit 1Cor12:13; Eph4:4.
    15. There is only one throne in heaven Rev4:2. Who sits upon it? Jesus does Rev1:8,18; 4:8. Where do the Father and the Holy Spirit sit?
    16. If Jesus is seated on the throne, how can He sit on the right hand of God? Mark16:19. Does He sit or stand on the right hand of God? Acts7:55. Or is He in the Fathers bosom? John1:18.
    17. How is Jesus part of the Godhead, when clearly the Godhead is in Jesus? Col2:9.
    18. Given Matt 28:19, why did the apostles consistently baptize both Jews and Gentiles using only the name of Jesus, even to the extent of rebaptism?Acts2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:5; 22:16; 1Cor1:13.
    19. Who raised Jesus from the dead? Did the Father Eph1:20, or Jesus John2:19-21, or the Spirit? Rom8:11.
    20. If the Son and Holy Ghost are co-equal persons in the Godhead, then why is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost unforgivable but blasphemy of the Son is not? Luke12:10.
    21. If the Holy Ghost is a co-equal member of the trinity, why does the Bible always show the Him being sent from the Father or from Jesus? John14:26; 15:26.
    22. If they are co-equal, why does the Holy Ghost not know what the Father knows regarding the return of Christ Mark13:32.
    23. If the Spirit proceeds from the Father, is the Spirit also a son of the Father? If not, why not?
    24. If the Spirit proceeds from the Son, is the Spirit the grandson of the Father? If not, why not?......................and so on…………….and so on!

    I believe that trinitarinism is not a biblical doctrine and that it plainly contradicts the Bible in many ways. Scripture does not teach a trinity of persons. Trinity doctrine uses terminology not used in scripture. It teaches and emphasizes plurality in the Godhead while the Bible emphasizes the fact that God is one and only one. It detracts from the fullness of Jesus Christ’s Deity. It contradicts many specific verses of scripture. It is not logical. It cannot be explained rationally, not even by those who advocate it.

    I also find it strange to say to someone that God is One and yet three distinct persons that make up the One. How about this: Hear O Israel, I am three seperate persons that make me the One God.

    And before anyone tries to post reasons for the trinity, I must let you know first: I was born into, raised up in, attended trinitarian college/bible school. I was where many of you are today!

    I mean not to offend.:)
     
  10. Knight

    Knight Knight of the Cross

    +111
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Republican
    GJG,
    I have neither the time nor the desire to address each and every one of your objections to the Trinity. Suffice it to say that I believe you are looking at this from man's perspective rather than God's perspective.

    May I ask you what you do believe about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
     
  11. GJG

    GJG Member

    272
    +1
    Just to make this clear to you dude, I did not put across my own view or as you put it 'man's perspective. If you did take the time to search through the scriptures I pointed out, you would not only see that I was only saying what...................sheesh............I think this has been said before!

    Dude, if you would like me to answer your question, then I humbly ask that you do the above first. Then it would be appropriate for you to question me.

    That's just plain and simple ignorance dude! Wouldn't you also want others to be polite and considerate to the posts that you put across scripture?

    Dude, if you have neither the time nor the desire to search scriptures within posts, then why would you expect others to read your postal scripture?

    THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS FORUM!:)

    REMEMBER: A chill pill a day, keeps the enemy away!

    Look 4ward 2 ur reply dude............is it ok if I call U dude? hehe:)
     
  12. Knight

    Knight Knight of the Cross

    +111
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Republican
    The reason I did not wish to address each and every one of your points is because I have no wish to become involved in a multi-pronged debate. Those tend to get real old real fast. If you would like for me to respond to one or two of your points then please pick a couple and I'd be glad to. I'd rather do it one or two at a time than all 24 at once.

    Instead, I thought I'd ask you what you do believe instead of discussing what you don't. You've dodged that question nicely.


    PS: You may call me "Dude" but you must know that I will picture you as one of the guys from "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure" whenever you do. I can live with that if you can.
     
  13. GJG

    GJG Member

    272
    +1
    wot question did I dodge dude?
     
  14. GJG

    GJG Member

    272
    +1
    Nad they weren't objections, they were contradictions; big difference dude.
     
  15. GJG

    GJG Member

    272
    +1
    AND not Nad sorry
     
  16. GJG

    GJG Member

    272
    +1
    I believe that God is the Only Eternal, Immortal, Invisible Sprit, that inhabits all of creation (He is also greater than creation). Omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient and UNCHANGING.

    I also believe that the Holy Ghost is the very same substance that is God operating in the lives of Spirit filled Christians.

    I also believe that Jesus is the sinless created vessel in which the uncreated substance dwelt within. So that it is His name that is the only name under heaven, given among men, that we must be saved by.

    Thus, God remains the one unchanging God of both the OT and NT.

    One God, One faith, One baptism.
     
  17. GJG

    GJG Member

    272
    +1
    Jesus,His flesh(humanity) cannot be God. But that which is in Him(Divinity) is certainly worthy of the title God, for it is the very same substance that is the Eternal, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Spirit that is the One God of Bible.

    Col 2:9 For in Christ all the fulness of the Deity lives in bodily form.
    2Cor 5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself

    Here is Jesus being called God:
    John 20:28 My Lord and my God 1John 5:20 This is the true God Jude 25 To the only wise God Hebrews 1:8 Thy throne O God.

    Jesus possessed the Divine attributes:
    Omnipotence-Matt 28:18 All power is given unto me Omnipresence-Matt 18:20 For where two or more are gathered in my name there am I
    Omniscince-John 2:24,25 He knew all men

    Jesus possessed Divine prerogatives:
    Recieved worship-Matt 14:33 Then they...came and worshipped Him.
    Forgave sin-Mark 2:5 Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
    Creator-John 1:3 All things were made by Him.

    This is why God has taken the name Jesus, as this is the only time that God Himself dwelt in the perfect vessel to fulfil the scripture: Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.KJV

    This fact is confirmed when God is asked the question: "Who are you" in Acts 9:5.

    Therefore, in light of the above scipture, we find that the One True God remains the same, and more importantly, He now has His own personal name!


    -----
    THE MYSTERY IS AS GREAT AS THE ANSWER IS SIMPLE!
     
  18. Knight

    Knight Knight of the Cross

    +111
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Let me see if I understand this correctly.

    You believe that Jesus was a created being whom God invested with His divinity.

    Is this a fair summation?

    Do you think that the Trinity teaches more than one God?

    As to your contradictions: I repeat my earlier challenge. Pick one or two and we can discuss them. This is preferable to hitting all 24 at once.

    PS: If you aren't able to respond until this afternoon don't expect a response from me until Monday.
     
  19. GJG

    GJG Member

    272
    +1
    Hi all,

    I also agree that Jesus is the only begotten son of God. And the Bible is clear regarding where Jesus stands regarding the Godhead:

    Here is Jesus being called God:
    John 20:28 My Lord and my God. 1John 5:20 This is the true God. Jude 25 To the only wise God. Hebrews 1:8 Thy throne O God.

    Jesus possessed the Divine attributes:
    Omnipotence-Matt 28:18 All power is given unto me Omnipresence-Matt 18:20 For where two or more are gathered in my name...there am I
    Omniscince-John 2:24,25 He knew all men

    Jesus possessed the Divine prerogatives:
    Recieved worship-Matt 14:33 Then they...came and worshipped Him.
    Forgave sin-Mark 2:5 Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
    Creator-John 1:3 All things were made by Him.

    There are not two different persons in the Godhead for the Bible is resoundingly clear in that there is only one God. So why the above scripture implying God and Jesus being the one God? Is there contradiction here? Certainly not.

    The only begotten son refers to the created, perfect flesh of Jesus. We know that the Holy Ghost (Spirit of God) provided the seed, so that the one Sprit that is God is now the Father of Jesus, the Son of God.

    So often God makes mention of how He is unchanging. Therefore, the omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, Spirit that is God simply uses a sinless, pure vessel to dwell within, while still retaining the attributes of omnipresence, omniscience, etc.

    Very much like a sponge in the centre of bucket of water; There is only one body of water filling all the bucket. The substance within the sponge is the very same substance that is everywhere within the bucket.

    This must mean that Jesus has a dual nature, perfect man and God. This is confirmed in:

    Col 2:9 For in Christ all the fulness of the Deity lives in bodily form.
    2Cor 5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself

    1 Tim 2:3-6 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the MAN CHRIST Jesus, NIV

    It is interesting that again the Bible makes mention of the one God being the one savior.

    Our Lord before He came in the flesh; He eternally existed as "God and Word", notice: He was not only the Word of God (logos) but also the very God, (logos: plan, creative thought). John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word......the Word was God. Here our Lord is declared to be both God and the Word.

    It is interesting that many non Christians believe in a supreme being that is perhaps made up of pure thought.

    Back to the topic: One must notice that God did not become flesh but rather was manifest in the flesh. So to say "God incarnate" is not biblical. God cannot be begotten, nor can He be born of a woman. But to say "Word incarnate" and God was in that personified Word, reconciling the world to Himself in His glorious and omnipresent Being; this is scriptural teaching.

    Jesus was not only that limited human personality as the Son (the Word), but infinitely more, He was the mighty God and the Everlasting Father aswell:

    Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
    KJV

    Here in lies the great mystery of Godliness:

    1Tim 3:16 Beyond all question, the mystery of Godliness is great: He appeared in a body..........was taken up in glory.

    -----
    THE MYSTERY IS AS GREAT AS THE ANSWER IS SIMPLE!
     
  20. Homie

    Homie Gods servant

    646
    +1
    Christian
    You argue well GJG. So, in your opinion, is it ok to pray to Jesus? Or should we adress our prayers to "God"?
     
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