• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

The trinity doesn't matter?

Status
Not open for further replies.

True Believer

Well-Known Member
Mar 6, 2003
1,393
12
California
✟1,647.00
Faith
Jehovahs Witness
Der Alter said:
A deliberately false statement, Der Alter always starts out nice and polite. I am nice until it is time not to be nice. And the people who are promoting heterodox religious groups always decide when that is. Just like the other person in this thread claiming I insulted him. He refuses to see that he called me a liar three times in one post and then has the nerve to complain.


This is not possible because only two people I have seen in here can get away with using the word liar in a open forum post and jesse dance is not one of them.

This is a deliberate, contemptible, lie straight from the pits of HELL. I have never claimed to know everything! Most of what you are calling “self important peoples tons of information which constantly repeat the same nonsense” is the same sources that JW writings quote out-of-context, and selectively, deliberately leave out information to twist the source and make it appear to support the JW teachings. Especially that piece of lying JW garbage, “Should You Believe the Trinity” All the JWs on this forum closed their eyes when I proved that virtually every quote in it was lies.
I have only posted material from the WBTS the one time and it was removed by Old Shepherd and he told me I could not post any of thier material here. Everything else has been material located on the web and scriptures from Bibles other than the NWT because many object to me using any of it also.
Which I have no problem with because I first learned the Truth while using the ASV anyway.


This pack of falsehoods is from a person who loves to call Evangelicals liars, and tools of Satan.


And in what post would this be since this is also barred as flaming in the rules in open forum. and I have never sent any personal posts to you!


Only after you called me a liar, and said that I was being used by Satan.


The only person I ever said anything like this to was in a personal message and it was not to you and that person was calling me names and trash talking in his posts to me in the first place. I believe it was you who was calling me a liar in public when I said I could disprove your suffocation theory because I had in fact had a climbing accident and did not suffocate. You used the actual word when posting your reply of which you were asked to edit it.


Of course people who can only cut and paste what their denomination writes will say this. If anyone wants to debate me then they will have to read real histories and real writings from the lands and times of the Bible and not the twisted garbage their denomination puts out.

I have read much history and watch many of the shows on TLC and Discovery and the History channel that have anything to do with Bible history. The books I quote from which are not WBTS literature you call garbage and rubbish because they do not agree with you. If you or anyone else really wants to see a proper way to debate respectfully Try reading the Jesus Michael thread . There were no loose cannons in it. We agreed to disagree with no one getting mad and no name calling.
May God Bless You, TB
 
Upvote 0
Erasmus was attacked for not adding the Comma Johanneum(1John 5:7,8). He answered that he had not found the words in any greek manuscript, including several he examined after publishing his editions. But he unwisely said that he would insert the Comma Johanneum in future editions if a greek manuscript could be found that contained the spurious passage. Interestingly, one was found, or made, that contained the words. The manuscript was made by a Franciscan friar named Froy(or Roy) in 1520 A.D. Erasmus kept his word and added the passage in his 3rd edition, but he added a long footnote expressing his suspicion that the manuscript had been prepared just so to confute him.
Also,

"Luther used the text prepared by Erasmus. But even though the inserted words taught the Trinity, Luther ruled them out and never had them in his translation. In 1550 Bugenhagen objected to these words 'on account of the truth.' In 1574 Feyerabend, a printer, added them to Luther's text, and in 1596 they appeared in the Wittenburg copies." footnote at 1 John 5:7-9 by William F. Beck(The Holy Bible in the Language of Today)​
http://hector3000.future.easyspace.com/comma.htm

Again, more convincing proof of the spurious nature of 1 john 5:7 the comma johanneum addition.

 
Upvote 0
ah but you might say what about John Gil?
But what of what John Gill says in his Exposition of the New Testament? In it he writes:
"As to its being wanting in some Greek Manuscripts, as the Alexandrian and others, it need only be said that it is to be found in many others; it is in an old British copy, and in the Complutensian edition, the compilers of which made use of various copies; and out of sixteen ancient copies of Robert Stephens' , nine of them had it: and as to its not being cited by some of the ancient Fathers, this can be no sufficient proof of the spuriousness of it, since it might be in the original copy, though not in the copies used by them, through the carelessness or unfaithfulness of transcribers; or it might be in their copies, and yet not cited by them, they having scripture enough without it to defend the doctrine of the Trinity, and the divinity of Christ: and yet after all, certain it is, that it is cited by many of them; by Fulgentius in the beginning of the sixth century, against the Arians, without any scruple or hesitation; and Jerome, as had been observed before it in his translation made in the latter part of the fourth century. In his epistle to Eustochium prefixed to his translation of the canonical epistles, he complains of the omission of it by unfaithful interpreters. It is cited by Athanasius about the year 350; and before him by Cyprian, in the middle of the 3rd century, about the year 250; and is referred to by Tertullian about the year 200; and which was within 100 years, or a little more, of the writing of the epistle; which may be enough to satisfy anyone of the genuineness of the passage; and besides there was never any dispute over it till Erasmus left it out of the first edition of his translation of the New Testament; and yet he himself upon the credit of the old British copy before mentioned, put it into another edition of his translation."​
So what is wrong with the above quote?
  • Gill lived in the 18th century, most of the ancient texts where unknown in his day.
  • The Comma Johanneum is not in "many other Greek Manuscripts.
  • It is not in 9 of the 16 used by Stephanus.
  • It was found in 4 Greek manuscripts that popped up after Erasmus's 2nd edition.
  • The "ancient" copies of Stephanus did not predate the 10th century.
  • The "old British Copy" was miniscule 61, which was written after Erasmus's 2nd edition, apparently so that he was forced to include it in his later editions.
  • Erasmus protested that he was forced to include it under duress.*
  • Erasmus claimed the comma johanneum was not original.
  • The Fathers cited by Gill were not citing scripture.
  • The comma johanneum did not become established until the 5th Century.
  • It does not appear in Jerome`s Vulgate(Gill didn`t know that there were revisions made after Jerome.["This passage is absent from the original Vulgate, but later found its way into the Latin text and is present in the Clementine edition." The English Bible, F.F. Bruce p.204]
  • The comma johanneum doesn`t appear in the Vulgate until the 9th century.
  • In the Eastern Church(orthodox) where Greek was still being used, not ONE manuscript had the comma johanneum.
  • The Complutensian edition included the comma johanneum because it found it in the Vulgate, not any greek manuscript that we know of.
  • In the fourth century C.E., in a Latin treatise, an overzealous advocate of
    the newly framed Trinity teaching evidently included the words "in heaven,
    the Father, the Word, and the holy spirit; and these three are one" as if
    these were a quotation from 1 John 5:7. Later that passage crept right into
    a Latin bible Manuscript. It appears in cursive mss No. 61 (16th century)
    and No. 629 (in Latin and Greek, 14th to 15th century) and Vgc (Latin
    Vulgate, Clementine recension).
  • http://hector3000.future.easyspace.com/comma.htm
  • Again the evidence is overwhelming that 1 john 5:7 is spurious
 
Upvote 0
isnt it amazing that the two verses of scritpure that are the foundational verses of scritpure for the trinity are spurious. math. 28:19, and 1 john 5:7? don't believe me? well there is an abundance 0f convincing information on the internet, just type in matthew 28:19 spurious, and 1 john 5:7 spurious, in google search and see the wealth of proof of their spurious nature.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.