The trinity doesn't matter?

[jessedance]

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Acts 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

These guys like polycarp, justin, and ignatius, were part of this trend that was beginning in Paul's day. they didn't spare the flock, they drew disciples away after them they were speaking perverse things and it culmitnated in the dark ages christianity. the reformation , which is still going on, was god's effort to bring the church out of the dark ages. the church of jesus christ all but lost the light of god in the dark ages. God is still trying to draw his church out of darkness into more and more light, but many are camping. they like were they are and don';t want any more light. they dont want anymore revelation . they don't want to give up false doctrines that they hold dear , and move on into more truth. but then there are the come outers. there have always been saints who came out of the darkness and moved on to more truth, like luther, michael servetus, john wesley, amy macpherson, william branham , and its still going on today.Gods gonna continue to call us out of darkness till he gets his church where he wants it. then HARPAZO.

 

[skylark1]

Tertullian also believed we were saved by works. Do you agree with all the teachings these men espoused?

Hi Swart,

If you would like to discuss this, I suggest that you open a new thread about whether people agree with all of the teachings of the early church Fathers. I'd rather keep this one on topic.

The quotations that I offered were in response to Jenda's statement:

Let me let you in on a secret. None of them believed in the Trinity, either. You know why? Because there was no such thing as the "Trinity" back then. The trinity didn't come into being as a formal concept for several hundred years.
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I think that Der Alter's post effectively shows that the belief in the Trinity was in existance long before beliefs were formalized into creeds.

 

[Ran77]

You have to understand to say that you dont fully understand, means you dont know if you will return to him or if you are doing things right...for some that is to scary to think of. I dont know all, but I do know that when that blessed day comes and the veil is removed from my eyes and I meet the savior, then all knowledge will be given to me, and I will finally feel filled.

No, that is not what it means. What it means is that less advanced creatures cannot fully understand more advanced creatures. It is beyond their capacity to do so.

If you are given all knowledge, as you propose, will you know all that God knows? Will you then be His equal?

 

[ByGrace]

IMO, as long as you believe in God the Father, Christ the Son (and savior of the world), and the Holy Spirit, that is what is important. While it is interesting to examine the relationship between them, I don't believe that needing to believe in one view-point or the other is what our salvation is based on.

The devils believe in these same things and tremble.

Faith that saves is one that brings a person to trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary and believe that He will get us to heaven and there is nothing we can do to better or worsen that salvation.

 

[A New Dawn]

The devils believe in these same things and tremble.

Faith that saves is one that brings a person to trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary and believe that He will get us to heaven and there is nothing we can do to better or worsen that salvation.

I'm really tired of the over-used, worn-out reply that just because someone doesn't use the exact phraseology that you do, or that you feel is acceptable, that they have no faith and are doomed for Hades.

To let you in on a little secret, if I hadn't accepted Christ as my personal Savior and dedicated my life to Him, I doubt I would be hanging out on Christian discussion boards. It's just not the "cool" place to be.

 

[ByGrace]

I'm really tired of the over-used, worn-out reply that just because someone doesn't use the exact phraseology that you do, or that you feel is acceptable, that they have no faith and are doomed for Hades.

.

Yeah, your right, the word of God is over-used and worn out. Shame on me for relying on the thoughts of the Holy Creator when devilish things are said.

 

[A New Dawn]

Yeah, your right, the word of God is over-used and worn out. Shame on me for relying on the thoughts of the Holy Creator when devilish things are said.

I didn't see the word of God anywhere in your reply.

 

[ByGrace]

I didn't see the word of God anywhere in your reply.

No, the Bible does not refer to the demons knowing the truth about Jesus and trembling. Come on.

 

[A New Dawn]

I was talking about the opinion part of your reply. But I am sure you know that.

Besides, them knowing the truth about Jesus and believing in Him as their Savior are two different things.

 

[ByGrace]

I was talking about the opinion part of your reply. But I am sure you know that.

Besides, them knowing the truth about Jesus and believing in Him as their Savior are two different things.

Exactly. See that is the same as the mormon church teaches. Do all you can and Jesus will fill in the blanks. No, that is not grace, it is works. Jesus is either your Savior all the way or you are still in your sins.

 

[Der Alte]

Tertullian also believed we were saved by works. Do you agree with all the teachings these men espoused?

Prove it!

The question is, did the early church long before the Nicaean council believe in a Trinity? Or did the "horrible, terrible, pagan sun worshipper" etc. etc. Constantine force the church to accept the Trinity, at the Nicaean council?

 

[A New Dawn]

Exactly. See that is the same as the mormon church teaches. Do all you can and Jesus will fill in the blanks. No, that is not grace, it is works. Jesus is either your Savior all the way or you are still in your sins.

Huh???

Just because I don't say things the way you think they should be said you make the judgment that I don't believe in Christ as my Savior?

And I don't think that the mormon church teaches that. That is a misleading statement on your part.

 

[A New Dawn]

The question is, did the early church long before the Nicaean council believe in a Trinity? Or did the "horrible, terrible, pagan sun worshipper" etc. etc. Constantine force the church to accept the Trinity, at the Nicaean council?

Actually my statement, which somehow became the sub-topic of the thread, was that the concept of the trinity was not in existence during the first century church. You know, Peter, Paul, Timothy, John, and all the rest of them back there in 40-80 AD. Not what did the concept of the Godhead develop into later, but what it was in the years immediately following Christ's death.

 

[Starcrystal]

I've read about the trinity concept being a later adaption by the church. "God in three persons" is not taught in the Bible. God in 3 MANIFESTATIONS is taught in Scripture. As I've said before on CF, the Holy Spirit never appeared as a "person." He is a spirit without body, as Jesus described that a spirit has not flesh and bone. Yet the Holy Spirit is still fully God, as is Jesus & the Father. They can manifest separately, or simultaneously (Which is why I don't beleive the extreme "Oneness" doctrine that says they can't appear all at the same time.) Jesus baptism shows all 3 can manifest at once, and since God is all powerful AND omnipresent, this is easily accomplished by Him!

 

[skylark1]

Actually my statement, which somehow became the sub-topic of the thread, was that the concept of the trinity was not in existence during the first century church. You know, Peter, Paul, Timothy, John, and all the rest of them back there in 40-80 AD. Not what did the concept of the Godhead develop into later, but what it was in the years immediately following Christ's death.

I guess that I misunderstood your point when you wrote that "the trinity didn't come into being as a formal concept for several hundred years."

This is a clear statement that the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost are one God:

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7


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[skylark1]

I've read about the trinity concept being a later adaption by the church. "God in three persons" is not taught in the Bible. God in 3 MANIFESTATIONS is taught in Scripture. As I've said before on CF, the Holy Spirit never appeared as a "person." He is a spirit without body, as Jesus described that a spirit has not flesh and bone. Yet the Holy Spirit is still fully God, as is Jesus & the Father. They can manifest separately, or simultaneously (Which is why I don't beleive the extreme "Oneness" doctrine that says they can't appear all at the same time.) Jesus baptism shows all 3 can manifest at once, and since God is all powerful AND omnipresent, this is easily accomplished by Him!

When the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are referred to as three "persons," this doesn't mean that they have a body of flesh and bones. A person is self aware, has emotions, a will, can make his will known, ect.

 

[Der Alte]

I've read about the trinity concept being a later adaption by the church. "God in three persons" is not taught in the Bible. God in 3 MANIFESTATIONS is taught in Scripture. As I've said before on CF, the Holy Spirit never appeared as a "person." He is a spirit without body, as Jesus described that a spirit has not flesh and bone. Yet the Holy Spirit is still fully God, as is Jesus & the Father. They can manifest separately, or simultaneously (Which is why I don't beleive the extreme "Oneness" doctrine that says they can't appear all at the same time.) Jesus baptism shows all 3 can manifest at once, and since God is all powerful AND omnipresent, this is easily accomplished by Him!

"God in 3 MANIFESTATIONS is taught in Scripture.", This statement is false.

Why do Trinitarians refer to the Holy Ghost/Spirit as “a person” distinct from the Father and the Son? Because the Holy Spirit has all of these individual, personal, attributes, distinct from the Father and the Son!

The Holy Spirit independently; comforts, reveals, bears witness, helps, has a mind, loves, leads, makes intercession, speaks, anoints, gives utterance (causes to speak), can be tempted, bids (tells, instructs); approves, suffers (permits) and forbids actions; searches hearts and consciences, can be insulted, can be lied to, can be grieved, can be quenched, bears witness; can be blasphemed and spoken against, distinct from the son; teaches, thinks, witnesses, sanctifies, signifies, sends and is sent from the Father and the Son, and ordains to office.

These are all characteristics of a person, not an impersonal force, energy, power, etc. as some groups claim.

Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Ro 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities:

Ro 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit,

Ro 15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit,

Mt 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit

Mt 10:20 the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Lu 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted,

Ac 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Ac 5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord?

Ac 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip,

Ac 10:19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him,

Ac 11:12 And the Spirit bade (told, instructed) me go with them

Ac 16:7 but the Spirit suffered them not.

Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God,

Ro 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: the Spirit itself maketh intercession

1 Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things,

1 Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly

Heb 10:29 and hath done despite (insult) unto the Spirit of grace?

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God,

1 Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

1 Jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness,

1 Jon 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spiri t, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;

Re 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit,

Mt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Mt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost,

Mr 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Lu 2:26 And it wasrevealed unto him by the Holy Ghost,

Lu 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost

Lu 12:12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance

Ac 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Ac 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

Ac 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,

Ac 20:23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.

Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers,

Ac 21:11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost,

Ro 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying,

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say,
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[Starcrystal]

Der Alter,

Why do Trinitarians refer to the Holy Ghost/Spirit as “a person” distinct from the Father and the Son? Because the Holy Spirit has all of these individual, personal, attributes, distinct from the Father and the Son!

The Holy Spirit independently; comforts, reveals, bears witness, helps, has a mind, loves, leads, makes intercession, speaks, anoints, gives utterance (causes to speak), can be tempted, bids (tells, instructs); approves, suffers (permits) and forbids actions; searches hearts and consciences, can be insulted, can be lied to, can be grieved, can be quenched, bears witness; can be blasphemed and spoken against, distinct from the son; teaches, thinks, witnesses, sanctifies, signifies, sends and is sent from the Father and the Son, and ordains to office.

These are all characteristics of a person, not an impersonal force, energy, power, etc. as some groups claim.

I agree with every scripture posted. But you're speaking of personality traits, which are all revelations of the Father and the Son. Still this does not make Him a "person" Show me ONE place in the Bible where the Holy Spirit Himself manifests as a "person" or anything near a person in physical form. There isn't any. A dove, and tongues of fire, thats all you'll find: neither of which are a "person." By extension the Holy Spirit was with Jesus & in Jesus, who is a person, but the Holy Spirit also indwells those who are born again.

I also do not beleive the Holy Spirit is a "force" or "active force" as Jehovahs Witnesses claim. He is fully God. I am a beleiver in the triune nature of God. I only stop at the "person" issue, mainly with the Holy Spirit.

Praise God, and praise Him through the Holy Spirit, and in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord! These 3 are One.

 

[Der Alte]

I agree with every scripture posted. But you're speaking of personality traits, which are all revelations of the Father and the Son. Still this does not make Him a "person" Show me ONE place in the Bible where the Holy Spirit Himself manifests as a "person" or anything near a person in physical form. There isn't any. A dove, and tongues of fire, thats all you'll find: neither of which are a "person." By extension the Holy Spirit was with Jesus & in Jesus, who is a person, but the Holy Spirit also indwells those who are born again.

I also do not beleive the Holy Spirit is a "force" or "active force" as Jehovahs Witnesses claim. He is fully God. I am a beleiver in the triune nature of God. I only stop at the "person" issue, mainly with the Holy Spirit.

Praise God, and praise Him through the Holy Spirit, and in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord! These 3 are One.

You evidently did not read all the scriptures and comments I wrote. The Holy Spirit is sent from God and while away from God thinks, speaks, sends, etc.

A “personality trait” cannot do any of the things listed! A “personality trait” does not have a mind of its own, the Holy Spirit has a mind. The scripture does not say a personality trait of God or Jesus has a mind. A “personality trait” cannot love, the Holy Spirit does. A “personality trait” cannot be insulted or blasphemed distinct from the person. Jesus said the Holy Spirit can be grieved and insulted distinct from Himself. I have personality traits, one of those is the power of speech. My “personality trait” of speech does not speak, I the person speak.

As you have noted, Jesus is a distinct person. Jesus stated that He and the Father are sufficiently distinct from each other as to qualify as two “men,” or “persons” under the law. Jesus also said that the Holy Spirit can be blasphemed distinct from Himself.

Joh 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.​

Further, you are confusing the word “person” with “human being” and the terms are not synonymous. In English even a partnership or corporation can be considered a “person.” And a little research will show that was the original meaning when the word “personae” was used by the early church to refer to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Main Entry: per·son
Pronunciation: 'p&r-s&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French persone, from Latin persona actor's mask, character in a play, person, probably from Etruscan phersu mask, from Greek prosOpa, plural of prosOpon face, mask -- more at PROSOPOPOEIA
1 : HUMAN, INDIVIDUAL -- sometimes used in combination especially by those who prefer to avoid man in compounds applicable to both sexes <chairperson> <spokesperson>
2 : a character or part in or as if in a play : GUISE
3 a : one of the three modes of being in the Trinitarian Godhead as understood by Christians b : the unitary personality of Christ that unites the divine and human natures
4 a archaic : bodily appearance b : the body of a human being; also : the body and clothing <unlawful search of the person>
5 : the personality of a human being : SELF
6 : one (as a human being, a partnership, or a corporation) that is recognized by law as the subject of rights and duties
7 : reference of a segment of discourse to the speaker, to one spoken to, or to one spoken of as indicated by means of certain pronouns or in many languages by verb inflection

M-W Dictionary online​

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[jessedance]

god is not a person, humans are persons.

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[font=arial,sans-serif]per·son[/font]
(click to hear the word) (pûr

s

n)
[font=arial,sans-serif][size=-1]n.[/size][/font]

1. A living human. Often used in combination: chairperson; spokesperson; salesperson.
2. An individual of specified character: a person of importance.
3. The composite of characteristics that make up an individual personality; the self.
4. The living body of a human: searched the prisoner's person.
5. Physique and general appearance.
6. Law A human or organization with legal rights and duties.
7. Christianity Any of the three separate individualities of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as distinguished from the essence of the Godhead that unites them.

1. http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/p/p0208500.html

No definition of person says that a person is god they all say that a person is a human, only the christian definition, which they manufactured contrary to the meaning of the word is used in reference to God. and that don't count cause its changing language to fit doctrine.