The trinity doesn't matter?

[AMMON]

See http://www.christianforums.com/t99382

 

[blessedbe]

If we beleive Christ is God in the flesh, that he died for our sins and was raised again to life for our justification, we do well.
Some people beleive "God in 3 persons." (Traditional trinitarianism) Others beleive a "Oneness" doctrine, such as Oneness Pentecostals do. Both have their points, but I beleive both miss something of the other. I actually beleive something balanced right inbetween these two teachings.

Does any of this have any bearing on our salvation if we have truly asked Jesus Christ to be our saviour and Lord? I highly doubt it. We came to Jesus in the first place by faith and trusting in Him. God put that desire in our heart and drew us to Himself. Theres people who beleive in the traditional trinity who'll be saved, and theres "Oneness" people who'll be saved. I think in the end there'll be people saved who we, in our limited and often judgemental mind-set wouldn't dream could be saved. And there will probably be people convinced their way is the only way that are not, simply because they relied on law rather than grace.

Sin IS what separates us from God! Have you beleived on the Lord Jesus & repented of your sins? Do you beleive this and walk in repentance because of Gods mercy and grace, not by your own efforts (works)? Then you do well.

Once again, you say just the right thing. At least for me! I only wish I could express myself the way you do! Blessings to you!

 

[blessedbe]

Starcrystal, I tried to rep you again but it says i have to spread some around to other people first!! LOL So in my mind, your repped!! he he he

 

[LisaStar]

Our rep thingy isn't working because we both tried to rep you & Jenda. Our computers acting wierd.
I can't really add to anything thats been said here. I just agree with what my husband said.

 

[LaurelTree]

IMO, as long as you believe in God the Father, Christ the Son (and savior of the world), and the Holy Spirit, that is what is important. While it is interesting to examine the relationship between them, I don't believe that needing to believe in one view-point or the other is what our salvation is based on.

I agree, its more important that we belive in god the father and that his son jc died for us, and because of that we recieved the atonement which gives us the ability to repent, be forgiven, and return to him

 

[LaurelTree]

God is beyond our mortal ability to fully understand. None of us will have a complete understanding of Him in this life. Why is it that there is some arbitrary line of understanding that makes some people saved and others not when all in question are honestly seeking Him? Why is it more important to have a specific view/understanding of Him than it is to be genuine in your desire to serve Him? Since none of us can precisely understand Him it seems an unlikely qualifier for salvation. Being ultimately intellegent and wise why would God choose to judge us on our understanding of a being that is beyond our ability to understand and ignore the sincerity of our offering?

It seems to me that you have things backwards.

You have to understand to say that you dont fully understand, means you dont know if you will return to him or if you are doing things right...for some that is to scary to think of. I dont know all, but I do know that when that blessed day comes and the veil is removed from my eyes and I meet the savior, then all knowledge will be given to me, and I will finally feel filled.

 

[skylark1]

From the original post:

an example of this is the trinity it does not matter how i believe in the trinity

What we believe does matter. God desires for us to worship Him in spirit and in truth.

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 4:24

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Jesus said:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16
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This means more than simply believing that a man named Jesus from Nazareth existed. It means believing that Jesus was who he claimed to be; that he was the Messiah; that he was the Son of God and God the Son. If he wasn't God then he would not have the authority to forgive sins. If he wasn't God, his sacrifice for the sins of the world would not have been perfect and complete.

If the Holy Spirit is not God, then how could He dwell in us, guide us, and sanctify us?

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Romans 8:9
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I do not think that one must have a perfect understanding of the Trinity in order to be saved, but it doesn't follow that belief in the Trinity doesn't matter!

It matters very much who we believe that Jesus is.

John 5
23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
​

We cannot deny the deity of the Son, and still honor the Son just as we honor the Father.

Romans 10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
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In order be saved if we must confess with our mouths and believe in our heart that Jesus is Lord, and that he was raised from the dead.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
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Verse 10 is a quotation from Joel 2:32. The Hebrew word for "Lord" in this passage was YHVH, which Strong's Lexion identifies as "the proper name of the one true God." So when we believe and confess that Jesus is Lord, this means that we believe that he is God.

 

[A New Dawn]

Skylark, you imply that not believing in the Trinity is equal to not believing in God the Father, Jesus Christ our Savior and the Holy Spirit. Then you went and quoted a bunch of verses that state you must love, honor, respect and worship the Lord written by the 1st century apostles.

Let me let you in on a secret. None of them believed in the Trinity, either. You know why? Because there was no such thing as the "Trinity" back then. The trinity didn't come into being as a formal concept for several hundred years. All that was required at that time was a belief in each member of the Godhead.

I didn't see anyone state that they disbelieved anything that you stated, whether they are trinitarian, modalists, or anywhere in between. And that is the reason I stated that, IMO, it doesn't matter whether you are Trinitarian or not, it is your belief in them that is the important thing.

 

[skylark1]

Skylark, you imply that not believing in the Trinity is equal to not believing in God the Father, Jesus Christ our Savior and the Holy Spirit. Then you went and quoted a bunch of verses that state you must love, honor, respect and worship the Lord written by the 1st century apostles.

Jenda,

I don't know what you are being so defensive about.

Please show me where I stated that not believing in the Trinity is equal to not believing in God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There are people who deny the Trinity that also deny that Jesus was God. I made no accusations of what others here do or don't believe. If you read what I wrote, you would see that I did not write that one must have a perfect understanding of the Trinity to be saved.

The New Testament is far more to me than just a bunch of writings by 1st century apostles. It does matter to me that Jesus said that we are to honor the Son as we honor the Father, and that Jesus is referred to as YHWY ... Jehovah ... the proper name for the only true God.

 

[A New Dawn]

I'm sorry if I misread your post. It seemed to be in rebuttal to the quote in the OP which stated that the person who wrote that quoted phrase felt it didn't matter how he viewed the trinity (meaning Godhead, I assume) as long as he believed in the trinity (godhead). I guess it was your phrase about worshipping Him in truth that made me feel that way. But I apologize if I misread it.

 

[skylark1]

Let me let you in on a secret. None of them believed in the Trinity, either. You know why? Because there was no such thing as the "Trinity" back then. The trinity didn't come into being as a formal concept for several hundred years. All that was required at that time was a belief in each member of the Godhead.

Althought the word "trinity" wasn't always used, the relationship was believed and taught before the Council of Nicea in 325 AD. I agree that it wasn't taught as a formal concept. The Christian Church was illegal until shortly before the Nicene Council. Once Christianity was no longer illegal, it was easier to meet and "formalize" concepts and teachings.

Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.
"O Lord God almighty...I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.
"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.
"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).
"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.
"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all...'" (Against Heresies X.l)

Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.
"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation...[which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.
"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority...There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).
"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)
"Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification..." (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).

source

 

[AMMON]

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Althought the word "trinity" wasn't always used, the relationship was believed and taught before the Council of Nicea in 325 AD. I agree that it wasn't taught as a formal concept. The Christian Church was illegal until shortly before the Nicene Council. Once Christianity was no longer illegal, it was easier to meet and "formalize" concepts and teachings.

Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.
"O Lord God almighty...I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

This supports the view that the Godhead is not the Trinity as created by the Nicene Creed.

Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.
"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

This also supports the view of the Godhead, non the Trininity created by the Nicene Creed.

Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity. "In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988). "We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

This further supports the Godhead, as opposed to the Trininity created by the Nicene Creed.

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.
"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all...'" (Against Heresies X.l)

As with the above, this quote again supports the Godhead, not the Trininity created by the Nicene Creed.

Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity. "We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation...[which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

This is the first of the quotes that, arguably, supports the principle of the Trininity as created by the Nicene Creed; although even in this quote, there is much talk of separation.

Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity. "If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority...There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132). "For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4) "Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification..." (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).

source

And this one truly supports the fallacy of the Trininty created by the Nicene creed.

 

[skylark1]

This supports the view that the Godhead is not the Trinity as created by the Nicene Creed.

Why? You did not provide any reasons why you believe that these do not support a belief in the Trinity.

 

[AMMON]

[/size]
Why? You did not provide any reasons why you believe that these do not support a belief in the Trinity.

I found it readily apparent. The quotes to which I refer clearly talk about three, separate, divine beings, not the fallacious Trinity. Only the last quote really hits the issue of the three being one. The second to last grazes it.

 

[skylark1]

It seems apparent to me that the quotes speak of three divine separate persons, who are all one God. I don't think that you can conclude from them that these men did not believe in the Trinity.

 

[skylark1]

I'm sorry if I misread your post. It seemed to be in rebuttal to the quote in the OP which stated that the person who wrote that quoted phrase felt it didn't matter how he viewed the trinity (meaning Godhead, I assume) as long as he believed in the trinity (godhead). I guess it was your phrase about worshipping Him in truth that made me feel that way. But I apologize if I misread it.

We must have posted over each other earlier. Our salvation is based on if we believe in our heart and confess with our mouths that Jesus Christ is LORD, and believe that he was resurrected. That doesn't mean that it doesn't matter what else we believe. I think that truth matters. Don't you?

 

[A New Dawn]

We must have posted over each other earlier. Our salvation is based on if we believe in our heart and confess with our mouths that Jesus Christ is LORD, and believe that he was resurrected. That doesn't mean that it doesn't matter what else we believe. I think that truth matters. Don't you?

I do believe that truth matters, but in this case, the "truth" is personally interpretive because there is not way to understand from the scriptures that we have what the actual relationship between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is. I believe that each person who earnestly seeks to understand studies the scriptures, prays for guidance, and believes what the Lord has put on his heart to believe. And as long as it doesn't depart from scriptural authority, there is no way to say one interpretation is any righter, or wronger, than another.

I think the truth comes in in our worshipping, as the scripture you posted earlier demonstrated. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 4:24 Once we come to know Christ, we must, in truth, acknowledge His Lordship and profess Him as Savior. To do or admit less is to deny the divinity of Christ.

 

[xsimmsx]

LoL. I don't ever recall Jesus Christ saying you must believe in the trinity to enter heaven. If it was about a trinity he would have said so.

 

[Der Alte]

This supports the view that the Godhead is not the Trinity as created by the Nicene Creed

This also supports the view of the Godhead, non the Trininity created by the Nicene Creed.

This further supports the Godhead, as opposed to the Trininity created by the Nicene Creed.

As with the above, this quote again supports the Godhead, not the Trininity created by the Nicene Creed.

This is the first of the quotes that, arguably, supports the principle of the Trininity as created by the Nicene Creed; although even in this quote, there is much talk of separation.

And this one truly supports the fallacy of the Trininty created by the Nicene creed.

The Trinity was not created by the Nicaean council! This is exactly the type of selective quoting and obfuscation I expected. The great thing about the internet anybody can access the writings of the early church fathers and verify for themselves what the early church taught.

In his, ( Link to: Dialogue with Trypho), Justin wrote;

1. The Word is Not as an Inanimate Power
2. The Word is a Person.
3. The Word is Begotten of the Father's Substance.
4. He (Jesus) was God,
5. He (Jesus) was Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God.
6. He (Jesus) was God, indivisible from the Father.
7. He (Jesus) was God, inseparable from the Father.
8. (Jesus) was Begotten from the Father but not by abscission [cutting off]

100 AD Ignatius of Antioch (225 years before Nicea), a follower of John. "There is then one God and Father, and not two or three; One who is; and there is no other besides Him, the only true [God]. For "the Lord thy God," saith [the Scripture], "is one Lord." And again, "Hath not one God created us? Have we not all one Father? And there is also one Son, God the Word. For "the only-begotten Son," saith [the Scripture], "who is in the bosom of the Father." And again, "One Lord Jesus Christ." And in another place, "What is His name, or what His Son's name, that we may know? " And there is also one Paraclete. For "there is also," saith [the Scripture], "one Spirit," since "we have been called in one hope of our calling." And again, "We have drunk of one Spirit," with what follows. And it is manifest that all these gifts [possessed by believers] "worketh one and the self-same Spirit." There are not then either three Fathers, or three Sons, or three Paracletes, but one Father, and one Son, and one Paraclete. Wherefore also the Lord, when He sent forth the apostles to make disciples of all nations, commanded them to "baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost," not unto one [person] having three names, nor into three [persons] who became incarnate, but into three possessed of equal honour." (Letter to the Philadelphians 2).

The First Apology of Justin, (150 AD) (175 years before Nicea) "But our Physician is the only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only begotten Son. We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For "the Word was made flesh." Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passible body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts. We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God Himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the Mystery which lies therein"

A Plea For the Christians By Athenagoras the Athenian: Philosopher and Christian [177 AD] (148 years before Nicea)

while men who reckon the present life of very small worth indeed, and who are conducted to the future life by this one thing alone, that they know God and His Logos, what is the oneness of the Son with the Father, what the communion of the Father with the Son, what is the Spirit, what is the unity of these three, the Spirit, the Son, the Father, and their distinction in unity; and who know that the life for which we look is far better than can be described in words, provided we arrive at it pure from all wrong-doing; who, moreover, carry our benevolence to such an extent, that we not only love our friends ("for if ye love them," He says, "that love you, and lend to them that lend to you, what reward will ye have? ",-shall we, I say, when such is our character, and when we live such a life as this, that we may escape condemnation at last, not be accounted pious?

http://www.piney.com/FatAthenPleaChr.html

180 AD (145 years before Nicea) Theophilus of Antioch
Chapter XV. - Of the Fourth Day. " In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity,. of God, and His Word, and His wisdom." And the fourth is the type of man, who needs light, that so there may be God, the Word, wisdom, man. Wherefore also on the fourth day the lights were made. (180 AD, Theophilus of Antioch Chapter XV. - Of the Fourth Day, To Autolycus 2:15)

190 AD (135 years before Nicea) Clement Of Alexandria "I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father." (Stromata, Book V, ch. 14)

"When [John] says: 'What was from the beginning [1 John 1:1],' he touches upon the generation without beginning of the Son, who is co-equal with the Father. 'Was,' therefore, is indicative of an eternity without a beginning, just as the Word Himself, that is the Son, being one with the Father in regard to equality of substance, is eternal and uncreated. That the word always existed is signified by the saying: 'In the beginning was the Word' [John 1:1]." (fragment in Eusebius History, Bk 6 Ch 14; Jurgens, p. 188)

'For both are one — that is, God. For He has said, "In the beginning the Word was in God, and the Word was God." (The Instructor, Book 1, ch 8)

"Despised as to appearance but in reality adored, [Jesus is] the Expiator, the Savior, the Soother, the Divine Word, he that is quite evidently true God, he that is put on a level with the Lord of the universe because he was his Son." (Exhortation to the Greeks, 10:110:1).

Gregory the Wonderworker (Declaration of Faith [A.D. 265]). (60 years before Nicea)

"There is one God . . . There is a perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty, neither divided nor estranged. Wherefore there is nothing either created or in servitude in the Trinity; nor anything superinduced, as if at some former period it was non-existent, and at some later period it was introduced. And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides ever"

200 AD Tertullian (125 years before Nicea)"[God speaks in the plural ‘Let us make man in our image’] because already there was attached to Him his Son, a second person, his own Word, and a third, the Spirit in the Word....one substance in three coherent persons. He was at once the Father, the Son, and the Spirit." (Against Praxeas, ch 12)

"Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent Persons, who are yet distinct One from Another. These Three are, one essence, not one Person, as it is said, 'I and my Father are One' [John 10:30], in respect of unity of Being not singularity of number" (Against Praxeas, 25)

"As if in this way also one were not All, in that All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons — the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." (Against Praxeas, by Tertullian)

http://www.bible.ca/H-trinity.htm
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[Swart]

[/color]

Althought the word "trinity" wasn't always used, the relationship was believed and taught before the Council of Nicea in 325 AD. I agree that it wasn't taught as a formal concept. The Christian Church was illegal until shortly before the Nicene Council. Once Christianity was no longer illegal, it was easier to meet and "formalize" concepts and teachings.

Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.
"O Lord God almighty...I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.
"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.
"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).
"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.
"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all...'" (Against Heresies X.l)

Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.
"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation...[which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.
"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority...There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).
"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)
"Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification..." (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).

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Tertullian also believed we were saved by works. Do you agree with all the teachings these men espoused?