The trinity doesn't matter?

[Serapha]

Hi there!




This was posted on the "Questions in Christianity" forum.


What say ye?

if i understand the morman faith correctly there r things that make me not want to be a morman. but there is no reason why mormans or anyone else that believes in Jesus as lord and savior cannot have God . there is what is called incorrect belief and teaching and there is what is called false belief and teaching. incorrect belief and teaching is just that it is incorrect but it does not have any bering on whether u will truly have God or not have God. an example of this is the trinity it does not matter how i believe in the trinity but it does matter if i go through Jesus and the cross to have God. another example is when the rapture will take place or if i even believe in it or not. these thing have no bering on if i truly have God or not . sin is what seperates us from God . if my belief is sin or leads to sin then it is a false belief i could go into many more but i would be here all nite so i will leave it at this. one thing i will comment on is adultry. the bible says if a man lusts after a woman in his heart he has committed adultry. the woman's part in this is dressing in such a way that causes a man to lust after her then she is just as guilty as he is. i hope this helps u

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Hi there!




This was posted on the "Questions in Christianity" forum.


What say ye?

I say the trinity does matter. To be saved to heaven you have to believe in Jesus and to believe in Jesus means to believe that He was who He said he was. A fake Jesus can not save. The Bible clearly teaches the trinity of God and that Jesus was and is a person of that ONE triune God and how can one be saved by a God that is not the God of the Bible? They can't.

Grace

 

[A New Dawn]

Hi there!




This was posted on the "Questions in Christianity" forum.


What say ye?

IMO, as long as you believe in God the Father, Christ the Son (and savior of the world), and the Holy Spirit, that is what is important. While it is interesting to examine the relationship between them, I don't believe that needing to believe in one view-point or the other is what our salvation is based on.

 

[lilac&lily]

Elohim and the Tri-une God


Today’s' favorite "game" of sport is half-truths and lies told like truth.
Worldly men (people) will place an untruth (a lie) in a public forum telling it often enough to make it seem true. Many times such Satanic ways of speaking and this dialectic will carry over to all sorts of forums and places where thoughts and ideas are discussed. Phrases such as "the trinity doesn't matter" are said with an added question mark to soften the lie. The end times make men more prone to actively serving and promoting the lie(s). They will seek to blend the Truth of the One true God with "other" gospels and doctrines of men and demons. They will fancy themselves "Christians" because they have Christian friends or family or like their company at times or simply believe "some" of God's Holy Word the Bible.

If we are to believe God we are to believe Him in FULL. If we are to throw off the full reality and dimension of our Salvation we best be prepared to end up sharing half truths which are, essentially compromises and untruths.
Such an idea is "the Trinity does not matter".

The Old Testament shows Father God and all the scriptures leading up to the coming of Messiah, Jesus Christ. When Jesus left to ascend to His Father who was in charge wooing and speaking to the hearts and consciences of men? Was this the Father alone? No this was the Holy Spirit or as some use the phrase The Holy Ghost. This reality of the Holy Ghost involves an immediate and more than implied 3 parts of God. Not 4, not 6 and not just One. Even from the very beginning of scripture we are show "Hear O Israel the Lord your God the Lord is One". But this One shows a plural God of unity or a unified nature. The Hebrew root here is Elohim. How can this be? This is understood as a mystery.

The Holy Spirit of the living God inhabits all men who call on Jesus Christ alone for Salvation. To compromise this Truth in any way is to discuss a compromise on God's will and way for mankind. It is to hint at or suggest God's plan is somehow not "good enough". It intimates men must find "other ways" of seeing or hearing God. Last but not least, it implies supremacy to man's wisdom and a full body cold shoulder to the effective and permanent work on the cross by Jesus. As well as a full or somewhat full shirking-off or ignoring of the redeeming, protective, teaching and calming indwelling of God's Holy Spirit. Not to mention the Holy Spirit of God's numerous inspiration to men of all times not the least of which is the writing of God's INSPIRED (in-spired, see spirit of God) Word The Holy Bible

In short, the Trinity does INDEED have EVERYTHING to do with man's salvation and how one is kept by him for God and His will and purposes. Its concept/reality is no less important than your very soul! For it has been in and through such working and presence of God, and those ALONE that men might be saved for Eternity. Miss out on any one aspect, a loving but just Heavenly Father, a Son Godman (Jesus) who came to save us or the Holy Spirit left down here to help us in such beautiful, loving and profound ways, and you corrupt and on some level shun God's full love letter to man. This He speaks everyday to all that are willing to listen through Himself/Jesus and the Holy Ghost.

Peace

 

[Ran77]

I say the trinity does matter. To be saved to heaven you have to believe in Jesus and to believe in Jesus means to believe that He was who He said he was. A fake Jesus can not save. The Bible clearly teaches the trinity of God and that Jesus was and is a person of that ONE triune God and how can one be saved by a God that is not the God of the Bible? They can't.

God is beyond our mortal ability to fully understand. None of us will have a complete understanding of Him in this life. Why is it that there is some arbitrary line of understanding that makes some people saved and others not when all in question are honestly seeking Him? Why is it more important to have a specific view/understanding of Him than it is to be genuine in your desire to serve Him? Since none of us can precisely understand Him it seems an unlikely qualifier for salvation. Being ultimately intellegent and wise why would God choose to judge us on our understanding of a being that is beyond our ability to understand and ignore the sincerity of our offering?

It seems to me that you have things backwards.

 

[A New Dawn]

Even from the very beginning of scripture we are show "Hear O Isreal the Lord your God the Lord is One" But this One shows a plural God of unity or a unified nature.The Hebrew root here is Elohim. How can this be? This is understood as a mystery.

Peace

Precisely. It is a mystery. And no amount of studying or explaining will provide adequate knowledge to fully understand it. In fact, just the opposite occurs. The more you try to understand, the more mysterious and inconsistent it seems.

 

[Tawhano]

Acts 2:37-38 Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 John 3:23-24 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

I believe that the above two verses sum up the path to salvation quite clearly. I see no mention of the understanding of the Trinity as being a prerequisite to this path, either in those verses or anywhere else.

 

[lilac&lily]

 

[lilac&lily]

"God is beyond our mortal ability to fully understand. None of us will have a complete understanding of Him in this life. Why is it that there is some arbitrary line of understanding that makes some people saved and others not when all in question are honestly seeking Him? Why is it more important to have a specific view/understanding of Him than it is to be genuine in your desire to serve Him? Since none of us can precisely understand Him it seems an unlikely qualifier for salvation. Being ultimately intellegent and wise why would God choose to judge us on our understanding of a being that is beyond our ability to understand and ignore the sincerity of our offering?

It seems to me that you have things backwards. "
_________________________________________________________________

God saves us. His Word says true believers (true Christians) are filled with the Holy Spirit upon salvation and have the "mind of Christ". Fully "understanding" God is not the point. Honestly seeking is not the same as BEING saved. It would be ardous, difficult if not impossible to serve a God we have no deep or intimate knowledge of. Yet He comes to dwell in all true Christians in a most imtimate way. Men can have many "fine" motives but works will do nothing to save any man. All the good deeds in this world won't buy Heaven nor keep anyone out.




You are correct in your words above that we won't fully know God in all His glory this side of Heaven. But I must keep saying this is not the point. Not knowing Him in His fullness or glory here in no way keeps us from access to God fully here. Let's not forget God's WORD is His word to man from God. If the Bible is the inerrent WORD OF GOD coming from the MIND and Heart of GOD-His INSPIRED Word and we ALSO have the His Holy Spirit living INSIDE of us how can we suggest we don't know God?


It is nothing of what "we" do but all He's done. We can't "work" this thing.
If I misinterpreted your post my apologies in advance. It seemed you were sharing your perspective of truth about how we Christians relate to or see God. Suggesting somehow a limit to our access to God when the Bible and the Holy Spirit and our expereince with this Triune God bears out this all as untrue. One thing must be done.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ but in a real way towards repentance and then salvation. That's all. But that's not enough for some. Jesus paid it all.

Looking back on it now I think you were actually sharing how fully knowing God is no man's complete legacy here and that it is by no means a pre-requisite for faith and thus salvation. And I would agree with those points as well.





Peace

 

[lilac&lily]

Agreed to all above in that God does not "fully"need to be understood to be saved of course not.1 Corinthians 13 should be posted here as it clearly says "now" we "see in a mirror dimly lit" but "then,face to face" where we will be "knowing even as we are known".

Perhaps I missread that post above I thought the suggestion was somehow the children of God don't have full access or full ability to know God. I could not tell if it was that suggestion or a sharing on how full knowledge of God was "required" to be saved. It is not.

I had to reply though because we do have full access to the Father upon being saved. Also there is no thing "we" can do which is pleasing to God but trusting and obeying Him upon salvation. I didnt want to take a chance that this was misunderstood. So many half truths and semi truths walking around.

Peace

 

[AMMON]

IMO, as long as you believe in God the Father, Christ the Son (and savior of the world), and the Holy Spirit, that is what is important. While it is interesting to examine the relationship between them, I don't believe that needing to believe in one view-point or the other is what our salvation is based on.

I'll second that.

 

[A New Dawn]

Agreed to all above in that God does not "fully"need to be understood to be saved of course not.1 Corinthians 13 should be posted here as it clearly says "now" we "see in a mirror dimly lit" but "then,face to face" where we will be "knowing even as we are known".

Perhaps I missread that post above I thought the suggestion was somehow the children of God don't have full access or full ability to know God. I could not tell if it was that suggestion or a sharing on how full knowledge of God was "required" to be saved. It is not.

I had to reply though because we do have full access to the Father upon being saved. Also there is no thing "we" can do which is pleasing to God but trusting and obeying Him upon salvation. I didnt want to take a chance that this was misunderstood. So many half truths and semi truths walking around.

Peace

I am not sure how you mean "full access" to the Father. We have full access by being able to speak to Him directly (without an intermediary), and being blessed by Him directly (without an intermediary), we have full access to the gifts of the Holy Spirit after we have received the Holy Spirit, etc., but while we might have the ability to have full access to His knowledge, none have been able to approach that level of understanding. To do so means that we know everything that God knows, and we would not need to be mere mortal man anymore.

One of the problems I see with your statement is that this is what the "humanization of Christ", or to put it conversely, the "Christification of man" is all about, that we can attain the same level of knowledge and grace as Christ, and that is dangerous territory.

 

[Hix]

There are of cource problems with the trinity, and by that I mean scriptural ones:

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with G-d and man.
Could G-d almight learn obedience and wisdom? Could he grow in his own stature?

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? [17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], G-d: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mark 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? [18] And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], G-d.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Theres something the Father knows but not the son?

Can someone answer these?
Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

 

[Ran77]

God saves us. His Word says true believers (true Christians) are filled with the Holy Spirit upon salvation and have the "mind of Christ".

Fully "understanding" God is not the point.

The point is to determine what makes a true believer. Is it the understanding of His nature that makes a person a believer? If so we are in trouble because we cannot fully understand God. His intellegence and abilities are far beyond what our mortal minds can comprehend. Or else He is not infintately intellegent and powerful as is often declared by the "Christian" community.

What I am addressing is the "Christian" tendency to place more emphasis on understanding His nature than the intent of the person's heart. Isn't it within their heart that the matter of believing is measured? Isn't it the desire to do as God commands that makes them Christians?

Honestly seeking is not the same as BEING saved.

If so, then those who dishonestly seek will also be saved. Is this true?

It would be ardous, difficult if not impossible to serve a God we have no deep or intimate knowledge of. Yet He comes to dwell in all true Christians in a most imtimate way. Men can have many "fine" motives but works will do nothing to save any man. All the good deeds in this world won't buy Heaven nor keep anyone out.

Is there a reason why you have introduced "works" into the discussion. Works are not a part of my commentary and based on your statement you discount them - so it appears extraneous to the discussion.

Now motives - that is what I am discussing. No works, just motives. If it is not the motive of the person that determines their status as a "Believer" then what does?

You are correct in your words above that we won't fully know God in all His glory this side of Heaven. But I must keep saying this is not the point.

I have already addressed the matter of it being the point - or not. I don't believe that repeating the statement will make it more valid.

Not knowing Him in His fullness or glory here in no way keeps us from access to God fully here.

This is an inaccurate statement. By saying "in no way" you invite your opponents to provide even a single, unimportant, occurance to invalidate your comment. I would really advise that you are more cautious with statements such as these in the future. Use of blanket statements can weaken your perceived credibility.

If I had full access to God here I would be able to see Him face-to-face and I would be able to have conversations with Him as we are with each other now. Full access would entail my ability to be in His presence.

Most likely you meant to say something like: not being able to have a full understanding of His power, glory, and intellegence does not prevent us from having a working understanding of the important matters/issues in this life.

If that is what you meant I agree with you.

Let's not forget God's WORD is His word to man from God. If the Bible is the inerrent WORD OF GOD coming from the MIND and Heart of GOD-His INSPIRED Word and we ALSO have the His Holy Spirit living INSIDE of us how can we suggest we don't know God

How does the fact that the Bible is not inerrent affect your statement?

It is nothing of what "we" do but all He's done. We can't "work" this thing.

Do we have to believe? If so then there is something that we do. He cannot believe for us can He?

And once again, I have not talked about works - unless you consider belief in Him to be a work. Do you?

If I misinterpreted your post my apologies in advance.

Thank you for that consideration. We are imperfect beings attempt to communicate in an imperfect medium - misunderstandings happen. I expect it and only ask that people will be tolerant while I attempt to gain a true understanding of what they are saying.

It seemed you were sharing your perspective of truth about how we Christians relate to or see God. Suggesting somehow a limit to our access to God when the Bible and the Holy Spirit and our expereince with this Triune God bears out this all as untrue. One thing must be done.

Actually, I am addressing what it takes to be considered a believer.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ but in a real way towards repentance and then salvation. That's all. But that's not enough for some. Jesus paid it all.

What constitutes believing in a "real" way?

Looking back on it now I think you were actually sharing how fully knowing God is no man's complete legacy here and that it is by no means a pre-requisite for faith and thus salvation. And I would agree with those points as well.

That is what I was saying.

 

[Ran77]

Somehow I missed part of your post.

Below I post some of the untruths which you have stated as your experience or view of God .:

"God is beyond our mortal ability to fully understand"
" None of us will have a complete understanding of Him in this life. "
"none of us can precisely understand Him "

Is your stance that we can fully undestand God in this life? If we can fully understand His intelligence, and His glory, and His motivations then my statement would be untrue. Are you suggesting that we can do this?

"there is some arbitrary line of understanding that makes some people saved and others not when all in question are honestly seeking Him"
"it more important to have a specific view/understanding of Him than it is to be genuine in your desire to serve Him"
"qualifier for salvation"
"God choose to judge us on our understanding of a being that is beyond our ability to understand and ignore the sincerity of our offering"

What is untrue about these?

I posted your "questions" and comments as statements of your view of facts. They come posed as questions but are in fact statements posed as questions.

They are both. I put forth a comment and am inviting a rebuttal, or clarification in return. If I did not want a response I would structure my post diferrently.

For example, you say: "Why is it more important to have a specific view/understanding of Him than it is to be genuine in your desire to serve Him? " Your implication here is that there is error in a full understanding of God and His will and ways for us to love and serve Him and all that entails.

Correction, that is your interpretation of my statement. If it matched what I intended to convey then it would accurately be my implication. I understand that you are attempting to be civil in your discussion with me and I appreciate that.

Let me use an example to illustrate my point. In this example I ask my children to prepare a gormet dinner for the family to enjoy together. My four year old might suggest peanut butter and syrup sandwhiches. My ten year old may suggest McDonald hamburgers. And finally my fifteen year old considers a menu from one of the swanky resturaunts in town to be something quite gormet. The two younger children prepare what they believe is a gormet meal and the oldest one does nothing.

As a parent I see that my younger children have done what I asked of them - to the best of their ability. Their understanding of the world is not as complete as mine. It was their willingness to do as I asked that made their actions obedient to my request.

In regards to the topic in question it is a matter of belief. Is not the effort to be an obedient believer what is most important to God?

Your statements ("questions") also are each coming from a perspective of what "we" can DO. When a man or woman is saved by Jesus Christ alone and even before they would be, there is no "offering" which can EVER be good enough for a holy God. Gods Word says this when it says "All our righteosuness is but filthy rags". God knew our motives could be mixed. True Christians having called on Jesus Christ alone know JESUS paid it all on the cross for mankind.

No, they do not focus on what a person does but the intent of his heart. Is the desire to believe pure. I have not spoken of any works - only desire, only intent.

What makes a "True Christian"?

 

[coyoteBR]

I am not sure. The concept of trinity just spread in christianity after the Nicene Council. Before, the Nature of Christ was more discussed than is today.

So, I'd agree that we can't understand God in full and all our ideas about Him are just Scratching the surface.
What should not stop us for keep searching and learning forever

 

[billwald]

Say that Christian theology is wrong. Will God chalk it up to stupidity or send us to Hell?

Say That Jesus wasn't the Messiah. Besides us being wrong, what else has changed? How are we any worse off than gentiles living in 1 B.C.?

 

[Starcrystal]

Jenda,
IMO, as long as you believe in God the Father, Christ the Son (and savior of the world), and the Holy Spirit, that is what is important. While it is interesting to examine the relationship between them, I don't believe that needing to believe in one view-point or the other is what our salvation is based on.

If we beleive Christ is God in the flesh, that he died for our sins and was raised again to life for our justification, we do well.
Some people beleive "God in 3 persons." (Traditional trinitarianism) Others beleive a "Oneness" doctrine, such as Oneness Pentecostals do. Both have their points, but I beleive both miss something of the other. I actually beleive something balanced right inbetween these two teachings.

Does any of this have any bearing on our salvation if we have truly asked Jesus Christ to be our saviour and Lord? I highly doubt it. We came to Jesus in the first place by faith and trusting in Him. God put that desire in our heart and drew us to Himself. Theres people who beleive in the traditional trinity who'll be saved, and theres "Oneness" people who'll be saved. I think in the end there'll be people saved who we, in our limited and often judgemental mind-set wouldn't dream could be saved. And there will probably be people convinced their way is the only way that are not, simply because they relied on law rather than grace.

Sin IS what separates us from God! Have you beleived on the Lord Jesus & repented of your sins? Do you beleive this and walk in repentance because of Gods mercy and grace, not by your own efforts (works)? Then you do well.

 

[A New Dawn]

If we beleive Christ is God in the flesh, that he died for our sins and was raised again to life for our justification, we do well.
Some people beleive "God in 3 persons." (Traditional trinitarianism) Others beleive a "Oneness" doctrine, such as Oneness Pentecostals do. Both have their points, but I beleive both miss something of the other. I actually beleive something balanced right inbetween these two teachings.

Does any of this have any bearing on our salvation if we have truly asked Jesus Christ to be our saviour and Lord? I highly doubt it. We came to Jesus in the first place by faith and trusting in Him. God put that desire in our heart and drew us to Himself. Theres people who beleive in the traditional trinity who'll be saved, and theres "Oneness" people who'll be saved. I think in the end there'll be people saved who we, in our limited and often judgemental mind-set wouldn't dream could be saved. And there will probably be people convinced their way is the only way that are not, simply because they relied on law rather than grace.

Sin IS what separates us from God! Have you beleived on the Lord Jesus & repented of your sins? Do you beleive this and walk in repentance because of Gods mercy and grace, not by your own efforts (works)? Then you do well.

Excellent post, Starcrystal, but I would differ on one point, and I don't think it is a major point. You stated that sin is what separates us from God. I believe it is not the sin that separates us from God, but rather the refusal to repent from it. We all sin because that is the way we were created, but God provides the way for us to find a way back to Him, and that is through repentance.

But, all in all, I agree wholeheartedly with your post.

 

[Starcrystal]

Jenda,
Excellent post, Starcrystal, but I would differ on one point, and I don't think it is a major point. You stated that sin is what separates us from God. I believe it is not the sin that separates us from God, but rather the refusal to repent from it. We all sin because that is the way we were created, but God provides the way for us to find a way back to Him, and that is through repentance.

I agree with this. The Scripture does tell us "Your iniquities & sins have separated you from the Lord," (Isaiah 59:2) but this is implying (as you said) a habit of continual sin, unrepented of. God also provided Israel with a way out = repentance, and that if people turned from their sins, God would turn away his judgement and bless them...

Thanks for the clarification!