the trinity concept?

[David Sylvian]

Okay, I know is this rehashed here ad infinitum, but I have different reasons for not "believing" the "trinity". And my view of God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit is not the view of Mormons, not the view of these other groups.

Thing is, I did accept this for some time, because I did not know any better. It is stated "the Spirit of God", in one place, "the Spirit of Jesus" in another, "the Holy Spirit" in yet another. Sometimes these are equated.

Problem I see is when talking to people, I keep seeing that this means, for them, they equate Jesus as exactly the same as the Father. They then argue, "The trinity says this". As if the concept of the trinity was so saving, that it said it in the Bible. Never brought up. Catholics came up with it hundreds of years later. The term is not in the Bible and Jesus did not state it.

What, ironically, I do not see people quoting even nearly as much is the actual teachings of Jesus.

Not that "the trinity" concept even says "God and Jesus are the exact same".

That mindset implies that Jesus was speaking metaphorically when Jesus said "the Father did this for me". Or even speaking metaphorically about the Father, at all. When Jesus was on earth, does anyone think there was not still someone up in the highest Heaven sitting on that throne?

In the beginning Jesus was God. Jesus still is God, but He is God in the flesh. There is a difference. Eve came from Adam and Eve and Adam are one, but saying that Eve is literally Adam is something else entirely. Or that Adam is literally Eve.

The Bible is full of this difference between Jesus and the Lord. God speaks highly of Jesus. That is not some kind of trick of speech or a metaphor. Those statements are true. For instance, "My Lord said to My Lord", by David.

A "son" is not the same thing as the Father, though they may have the same name and be one.

So, then, when the concept dilutes that as I see people teaching, I believe that is wrong and makes them misunderstand many things.

Jesus, for instance, does not shout and bring about the second coming. "At the Archangel's shout" is the descent. The Archangel, not Jesus commands that.

There is then also two voices - and more - in the Old Testament. But of God, there are two distinct voices. The voice of Jesus, and the voice of God. Yes, this can be said of the same Spirit, because they are of the same Spirit. But the same Spirit may speak from the Father, at turns, or from the Son.

So the trinity concept can be extremely limiting if people take it too far.

As for people arguing over it: They have not seen God. They do not know what God looks like. So, why are you arguing over it? If you have seen God, then I could see someone arguing over it.

Arguing "the Bible says this", is absurd. Everyone who is wrong says "the Bible says this" or something equally absurd as "this is what the Bible says". The Pharisees said that. The evil monks and priests of the Inquisition said that. Surely everyone has seen people do very horrible evil in history or the world arguing, "The Bible said this".

Fact is, as they do not see God - "neither man nor angel" does - they can not know for sure.

However, they can consider these facts I state if they have the Spirit as being inviolably true.

Ask your self, ask the Spirit in you, "Do I lie?" Maybe "is this the spirit of Satan?" Maybe you think, "He does not have evidence from God on these matters"?

I assure you, before God and the Spirit, I am telling the truth.

 

[donfish06]

And one that I believe makes the most sense when used in context with the Bible:

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

God is an invisible spirit. God wants to have communion with us. How can an invisible spirit have communion with us?

He creates a body to dwell in. This is the MAN Jesus. He then descends into this body, and Jesus becomes Christ (which is translated, annointed)

Jesus is God in flesh (Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.)

Jesus was completely human just like all of us, but he was full of the complete spirit of God, which we cannot be, as we are sinners. That is why Jesus had to be sinless.

Because we are sinful, we cannot contain the full measure of God. Thus God dwells his church, which is himself split into a many-membered body. Every member of the TRUE church has some attribute of God (Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Since a perfect sacrifice was made, God can now dwell in us... in part. If Jesus was the first among many brethren, then we are that many brethren! If we are baptized into Christ, and have received the Holy Spirit, then we are now (as a whole) Christ! (the annointed)

In short, the Father was God above us, the Son was God WITH us (Emmanuel) and the Holy Spirit is God IN us.

ONE God, manifesting himself in one flesh, then in many! We are his epistles, read of all men! This is why the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is the LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!

Satan has had thousands of years to deceive. The last thing he wants is for us to realize who we are! If we are sons and daughters of God, then that makes us equal to God!

Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

If God is YOUR Father then you are equal with him too!


This is the shortest I could make it. So much more in depth and lots more scriptures that lead me to believe this

 

[David Sylvian]

If God is YOUR Father then you are equal with him too!

Thank you. I guess I do see equality there, because I do believe God loves me as much or maybe even more then I love him... but God is also stronger, smarter, wiser, more knowledgeable then me. So I am not equal in that way, but I do believe God considers me an equal in the sense that God loves me.

 

[donfish06]

Thank you. I guess I do see equality there, because I do believe God loves me as much or maybe even more then I love him... but God is also stronger, smarter, wiser, more knowledgeable then me. So I am not equal in that way, but I do believe God considers me an equal in the sense that God loves me.

I believe God always uses metaphors perfectly. He likens himself to a Father and us to his Children.

I have no children yet, but think about this (hypothetically):

When I have a son he will have all of my (and mommys') characteristics in his DNA. We cannot see those attributes immediately. As my son ages, I will start seeing more and more of myself in him. First will be physical characteristics. After enough time, I will start seeing my personality in him as well.

This is how we are with God. We are equal but are not fully come to the manifestation (nor will we until he returns)

 

[SwordFall]

Interpreting John and Isaiah side by side confirm the Trinity.

 

[nothead]

Interpreting John and Isaiah side by side confirm the Trinity.

Isa 45 no other stands next to the One True God. This is not trinity and it is said eight times in the chapter in case you did not comprehend the first seven...

John has two unequivocal verses proving him unitarian;

Jn 17:3 and Jn 20:17 so you are wrong with both fellas. Makes you wrong 2 out of 2, not a good record in baseball, boxing or hockey.

 

[SwordFall]

Isa 45 no other stands next to the One True God. This is not trinity and it is said eight times in the chapter in case you did not comprehend the first seven...

John has two unequivocal verses proving him unitarian;

Jn 17:3 and Jn 20:17 so you are wrong with both fellas. Makes you wrong 2 out of 2, not a good record in baseball, boxing or hockey.

I'm wrong because you proof text?

No, that's like saying I'm wrong because you don't know how to harmonize scripture. In fact, I'm almost prepared to say that you don't understand the Trinity because you seem to be going at it in a very odd way.

 

[nothead]

I'm wrong because you proof text?

No, that's like saying I'm wrong because you don't know how to harmonize scripture. In fact, I'm almost prepared to say that you don't understand the Trinity because you seem to be going at it in a very odd way.

Trins don't even try to harmonize Jn 17:3 or 20:17. Don't try to snow me.

Beta made an attempt. He failed miserably. Jesus in Jn 17:3 calls the Father the ONLY True God and only says he is SENT...

ONLY means Only means only. Only EXCLUDES any other. And this is in fact the context of Isa 45 EIGHT that is EIGHT that is EIGHT times,

that is EIGHT that is Eight that is EIGHT that is EIGHT that is EIGHT times

in case you didn't get it the first seven times. Repeated for the slow learners, from God to us. God knows nothead is slow too, yeah? NO OTHER but the One and ONLY means the number One, sir. NO OTHER starting not with three but with the monotheistic ONE PERSON OF GOD.

See, I don't have to understand TRINITY which is not understandable. I only HAVE to understand what God says is important. Shema: God is One. Selah.

 

[Der Alte]

Isa 45 no other stands next to the One True God. This is not trinity and it is said eight times in the chapter in case you did not comprehend the first seven...

John has two unequivocal verses proving him unitarian;

Jn 17:3 and Jn 20:17 so you are wrong with both fellas. Makes you wrong 2 out of 2, not a good record in baseball, boxing or hockey.

Fortunately my Bible has more than two verses. Here a few verses from John that do support the Trinity.

[1] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[2] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[3] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

[4] Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[5] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[6] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

[7] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

[8] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

[9] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

[10] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

[11] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

[12] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

[13] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

[14] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, [Jesus] My Lord and my God.

[15] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

[16] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

[17] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

[18] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.​

 

[nothead]

Fortunately my Bible has more than two verses. Here a few verses from John that do support the Trinity.

[1] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[2] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[3] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

[4] Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[5] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[6] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

[7] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

[8] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

[9] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

[10] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

[11] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

[12] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

[13] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

[14] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, [Jesus] My Lord and my God.

[15] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

[16] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

[17] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

[18] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.​

This is a pasty and I already refuted it here on this forum. You plagiarized yourself, Der.

 

[Der Alte]

This is a pasty and I already refuted it here on this forum. You plagiarized yourself, Der.

You have refuted nothing! It is not a pasty, it is my own work compiled over the last decade or so on this and other forums. How can I plagiarize myself? If you think you refuted anything I have posted tell me the thread and post number or forever hold your peace.

 

[Imagican]

Fortunately my Bible has more than two verses. Here a few verses from John that do support the Trinity.

[1] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Yes, and the Word of God will ALWAYS BE the Word of God. The problem is trying to MAKE God's Word Jesus Christ. For Christ Himself openly stated that the words that He offered were NOT HIS OWN. If He WERE God Himself, then the words that He offered WOULD HAVE BEEN HIS OWN. For the words that He offered WERE the Word of God.

[2] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

ALL things WERE made BY God. And without Him was not ANY THING made that was made. And all these were made BY God THROUGH Christ.

[3] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

And God WAS in the world, and the world WAS made BY Him. And the world KNEW HIM NOT.

[4] Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

And the Word of God WAS 'made flesh'. God SENT His Son, whom He had TAUGHT His Word, in the flesh.

[5] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Don't know what version of the Bible YOU quote from, but ALL that I have EVER read use the word SON where you have entered God.

[6] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Even 'trinity' does NOT TEACH that the Father and the Son are THE SAME.

[7] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

So YOU TOO would agree with the Jews that FALSELY accused Christ of MAKING Himself EQUAL with God?

[8] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

So YOU believe that me stating that my father is my father makes me EQUAL to my father? Boy, you should speak to my father...........

[9] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

And indeed, before Abraham, Jesus DID exist. He has ALWAYS been the Son since the time of being begotten.

[10] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

So God has bestowed upon the Son, the Son's OWN glory. Not the GLORY of God, but HIS OWN, Christ has been given HIS OWN 'glory'.

[11] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Once again, you are tying to say that the Father and the Son are the SAME. Yet even 'trinity' teaches NO SUCH THING.

When in TRUTH, what these words offer is THIS: those that witnessed the ACTS of Christ were INDEED witnessing the Father being reflected IN those very acts. In other words, those that witnessed what Christ said and did, were witnessing what the Father SENT Him to say and do. Therefore, they were witnessing the Father THROUGH Christ, His representative.

[12] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Ok. What does the glory that Christ had BEFORE the world was formed have to do with Christ being God?

[13] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

Since the 'all' being referenced were GIVEN to Christ BY God, they are surely a possession of BOTH the Father and the Son.

[14] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, [Jesus] My Lord and my God.

Already been through this one and you openly admitted that you can SEE IT NO OTHER WAY. But I offered a perfectly plausible ALTERNATIVE in understanding.

[15] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

And the Son DID come and give us understanding concerning God: His Father. And the God Christ declared IS the TRUE God and eternal life.

[16] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Ok, Lord of lords, King of Kings. Now what? Being Lord of lords and King of kings has no bearing on anything other than the authority bestowed upon Him by His Father: God.

[17] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

See my last response.

[18] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Already been over this one TOO. God is the ONLY true God. That makes Him both FIRST and LAST.

Jesus Christ is the ONLY begotten SON of God. That makes Him both First and Last. For ANYHTING that is the ONLY thing LIKE IT is 'alpha and omega': both first and last.
​

So you see, ALL these that YOU say offer some PROOF of 'trinity', in truth, do NO SUCH THING. And not in ONE of the quotes you offered does the concept of THREE in one appear. And neither does the word 'trinity'. And your offering of the statements of Christ and the Father being ONE. 'Trinity' doesn't even offer any such concept of Christ and the Father being the SAME.

"Trinity" teaches that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are THREE SEPARATE PERSONS that make up ONE God. Philosophical, mythical, mystical, mumbo jumbo that goes all the way back to the Babylonians who ALSO believed in and followed "MULTI PART gods".

Once again, we have you offering scripture that YOU believe offers proof of 'trinity'. An indication that you don't really even UNDERSTAND 'trinity'. For if you did, you would KNOW that 'trinity' does NOT teach that the Father and Son are the SAME. Which clearly reveals that when Christ offers that those that have seen Him have seen the Father is SYMBOLIC, not LITERAL. What it TRULY means is that those that witnessed the ACTS of Christ witnessed what He had been sent by the Father to DO.

And yet not a SINGLE 'trinitarian' that I have offered this scripture to has made a SINGLE attempt to explain it from a 'trinitarian' standpoint:

John 7:

15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?
16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.


For this scripture PLAINLY illustrates what has been offered over and over: Christ is NOT God. The doctrine that He offered was NOT HIS OWN, but belonged to Him that had sent Him: GOD. And He further illustrates the POINT by offering that ANY MAN that follows God's will will KNOW that the doctrine offered by Christ is the DOCTRINE of God, NOT of Christ Himself. He then emphasizes that He did NOT come seeking His OWN glory, but instead, the glory of Him who sent Him: God. And so long as one TRULY seeks to place honor upon the glory of God, there is NO UNRIGHTEOUSNESS IN HIM.


So you throw out 'one liners' that really don't have ANY bearing on the truth as you offer them, and then when confronted by scripture such as this above, you have NO ANSWER. You see, you do NOT look for the preponderance of evidence, you simply seek out a FEW lines that when misinterpreted FIT what it is that you want to believe. For if you confronted those lines you offer from the proper FOUNDATION, you would CLEARLY SEE that they do NOT mean what you try and MAKE them mean.


There is NO 'trinity' offered in the Bible so there are NO scriptures that explain it or even INDICATE it. The concept of 'trinity' PREexisted the Roman's introduction to Christ. It simply took a few hundred years to WELD the two together. Instead of 'starting over' with God and His Son, they simply ADDED God and Christ to their previous pagan beliefs.


Blessings,


MEC

 

[barryrob]

‘The Oxford Companion To The Bible’Ed. by Bruce M. Metzger & Michael D. Coogan on page 782 says regarding the trinity:-
“Trinity … While the New Testament writers say a great deal about God, Jesus, and the spirit of each, no New Testament writer expounds on the relationship among the three in the detail that later Christian writers do!

]“Later” means in addition to the Bible!

LATER TRADITIONS OF THE SO-CALLED ALPSTOLIC FATHERS?

‘The Oxford Companion To The Bible’ Ed. by Bruce M. Metzger & Michael D. Coogan on page 782 says on the trinity:-
“Trinity Because the Trinity is such an important part of later Christian doctrine, it is striking the term does not appear in the New Testament. Likewise, the development of three coequal partners in the Godhead found in later creedal formulations cannot be clearly detected within the confines of the canon.”


This points to a later tradition among the so-called apostolic fathers known as the ‘Apostles Creed’ whom expounded on what the inspired writer of the Scriptures did not say!

Paul condemns the idea of later traditions at GALATIANS 1:8:-
“However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to YOU as good news something beyond what we declared to YOU as good news, let him be accursed.”

barry

 

[2ducklow]

[2] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.​

Correction. the greek word here is δια which means through. Here is a correct translation of john 1.3

(Rotherham) John 1:3 All things, through him, came into existence, and, without him, came into existence, not even one thing: that which hath come into existence,


'by him' isn't a translation it is some guys interpretation of what god actually said.

also

(Rotherham) John 1:3 ::::::::::: that which hath come into existence,(Rotherham) John 1:4 in him, was, life, and, the life, was, the light of men.--

is considered by some to be one sentence. That which has come into existence in him, was life..........

I'm not sure.

[3] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

bad translation. Here is the correct translation of jon 1.10.

(Rotherham) John 1:10 In the world, he was, and, the world, through him, came into existence, and, the world, knew him not.

[5] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Good translation of spurious scripture.

Here's what God really said.

(Young) John 1:18 God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father--he did declare.

[14] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, [Jesus] My Lord and my God.

Bad translation.
it's either. 'the Lord of me and the God of me". or it's 'O my Lord and O my God". I favor the second one for various reasons. These are the only two possiblities grammatically speaking.

​

 

[Der Alte]

[5] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Good translation of spurious scripture.

Here's what God really said.

(Young) John 1:18 God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father--he did declare.

Still cherry picking versions. Why didn't you quote Rotherham here, isn't he your be all, know all Greek guru? Here is indisputable proof of your cherry picking. You didn't quote Rotherham because he blows your argument right out of the water.

Rotherham John 1:18 No one, hath seen, God, at any time: An Only Begotten God, The One existing within the bosom of the Father, He, hath interpreted [him].

John 1 - Rotherham's Emphasized Bible EBR 1902 Online Bible Translation​

Here is how to correctly support an argument. You don't just quote from a verse from your pet version but you show the scholarship behind the translation.

NET Translation Notes 45tc The textual problem μονογενὴς θεός (monogenh" qeo", “the only God&#8221 versus ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός (Jo monogenh" Juio", “the only son&#8221 is a notoriously difficult one. Only one letter would have differentiated the readings in the mss, since both words would have been contracted as nomina sacra: thus qMs or uMs. Externally, there are several variants, but they can be grouped essentially by whether they read θεός or υἱός. The majority of mss, especially the later ones (A C3 Θ Ψ Ë1,13 Ï lat), read ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός. Ì75 א1 33 pc have ὁ μονογενὴς θεός, while the anarthrous μονογενὴς θεός is found in Ì66 א* B C* L pc. The articular θεός is almost certainly a scribal emendation to the anarthrous θεός, for θεός without the article is a much harder reading. The external evidence thus strongly supports μονογενὴς θεός. Internally, although υἱός fits the immediate context more readily, θεός is much more difficult. As well, θεός also explains the origin of the other reading (υἱό&#962, because it is difficult to see why a scribe who found υἱός in the text he was copying would alter it to θεός. Scribes would naturally change the wording to υἱός however, since μονογενὴς υἱός is a uniquely Johannine christological title (cf. John 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9). But θεός as the older and more difficult reading is preferred. As for translation, it makes the most sense to see the word θεός as in apposition to μονογενής, and the participle ὁ ὤν (Jo wn) as in apposition to θεός, giving in effect three descriptions of Jesus rather than only two. (B. D. Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, 81, suggests that it is nearly impossible and completely unattested in the NT for an adjective followed immediately by a noun that agrees in gender, number, and case, to be a substantival adjective: “when is an adjective ever used substantivally when it immediately precedes a noun of the same inflection?” This, however, is an overstatement. First, as Ehrman admits, μονογενής in John 1:14 is substantival. And since it is an established usage for the adjective in this context, one might well expect that the author would continue to use the adjective substantivally four verses later. Indeed, μονογενής is already moving toward a crystallized substantival adjective in the NT [cf. Luke 9:38; Heb 11:17]; in patristic Greek, the process continued [cf. PGL 881 s.v. 7]. Second, there are several instances in the NT in which a substantival adjective is followed by a noun with which it has complete concord: cf., e.g., Rom 1:30; Gal 3:9; 1 Tim 1:9; 2 Pet 2:5.) The modern translations which best express this are the NEB (margin) and TEV. Several things should be noted: μονογενής alone, without υἱός, can mean “only son,” “unique son,” “unique one,” etc. (see 1:14). Furthermore, θεός is anarthrous. As such it carries qualitative force much like it does in 1:1c, where θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος (qeo" hn Jo logo") means “the Word was fully God” or “the Word was fully of the essence of deity.” Finally, ὁ ὤν occurs in Rev 1:4, 8; 4:8, 11:17; and 16:5, but even more significantly in the LXX of Exod 3:14. Putting all of this together leads to the translation given in the text.

Robertson Word Pictures in the NT John 1:18

The only begotten Son (ho monogenēs huios). This is the reading of the Textus Receptus and is intelligible after hōs monogenous para patros in Joh_1:14. But the best old Greek manuscripts (Aleph B C L) read monogenēs theos (God only begotten) which is undoubtedly the true text. Probably some scribe changed it to ho monogenēs huios to obviate the blunt statement of the deity of Christ and to make it like Joh_3:16. But there is an inner harmony in the reading of the old uncials. The Logos is plainly called theos in Joh_1:1. The Incarnation is stated in Joh_1:14, where he is also termed monogenēs. He was that before the Incarnation. So he is “God only begotten,” “the Eternal Generation of the Son” of Origen’s phrase.

Vincent Word Studies The only begotten son (ο μονογενης υιο&#962
Several of the principal manuscripts and a great mass of ancient evidence support the reading μονογενης θεος, “God only begotten.”

Another and minor difference in reading relates to the article, which is omitted from μονογενης by most of the authorities which favor Θεὸς. Whether we read the only begotten Son, or God only begotten, the sense of the passage is not affected. The latter reading merely combines in one phrase the two attributes of the word already indicated - God (Joh_1:1), only begotten (Joh_1:14); the sense being one who was both God and only begotten.​

And from your link to Metzger. Another proof of your cherry picking rather that diligent scholarship.

1.18 ο μονογενης υιος {B}
With the acquisition of î66 and î75, both of which read θεος, the external support of this reading has been notably strengthened. A majority of the Committee regarded the reading ο μονογενης υιος , which undoubtedly is easier than μονογενης θεος to be the result of scribal assimilation to Jn 3.16, 18; 1 Jn 4.9. The anarthrous use of θεος (cf. 1.1) appears to be more primitive. There is no reason why the article should have been deleted, and when υιος supplanted θεος it would certainly have been added. The shortest reading, ὁ μονογενὴς while attractive because of internal considerations, is too poorly attested for acceptance as the text.

Some modern commentators[sup]4[/sup] take ο μονογενης as a noun and punctuate so as to have three distinct designations of him who makes God known μονογενης, θεος, ο ων, εις τον κολπον του πατρος

[It is doubtful that the author would have written μονογενης, θεος which may be a primitive, transcriptional error in the Alexandrian tradition (υς/θ&#962. At least a D decision would be preferable. A.W.]​

 

[Phantasman]

Men change translations to suit their beliefs. 2ducklows verses say the same thing in spirit. Just as John 1:1 can be taken as "God" or "a God" depending on your perspective.

1 John 4:3
and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. (NKJV)
1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.(KJV)

What we have, is the NKJV changing the term antichrist from a descriptive verb to a Pronoun by adding "the" and capitalizing the A.

Believers only reading one way, see a beast they compare to Revelations. The mind who seeks knowledge see's that the followers of John may have been combating a system of rising beliefs. If the Holy Spirit works truth in the Bible, which one is truth?

The doctrines of Doceticm and Gnosticism had made inroads among the followers of Jesus in the latter half of the First Century. Some said that Jesus never assumed human flesh, but only had the appearance of flesh, because they were scandalized that Divinity would soil itself by associating so closely with matter. Others said that Christ was raised as a spirit only, and did not experience a bodily resurrection. In this epistle John condemns such doctrines in no uncertain terms with the statement that such persons were antichrist.-WIKI

As one who follows Gnosis, I cannot say I accept of reject whether Christ appeared in flesh and spirit, spirit only, or whatever. To me, I am told to believe what I have not seen, which I do in faith.

John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

I believe John was speaking more of the seed that sprouted people like Celsus.

 

[Albion]

I was just wondering...

"How many threads does it take in order to say that a lot of people are confused about the Trinity?"

 

[barryrob]

Fortunately my Bible has more than two verses. Here a few verses from John that do support the Trinity.

[1] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

[2] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[3] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

[4] Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[5] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[6] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

[7] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

[8] Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

[9] Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

[10] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

[11] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

[12] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

[13] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

[14] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, [Jesus] My Lord and my God.

[15] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

[16] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

[17] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

[18] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
​

Non of those support the trinity doctrine or the like, e.g. non say of God's Son Jesus Christ that he is the "God of Gods" as The Bible does say of his Creator Father:-

Deuteronomy 10:17
For Jehovah YOUR God is the God of gods . .

Daniel 2:47
The king was answering Daniel and saying: “Truly the God of YOU men is a God of gods. . .

Jesus is a God but under the control of Almighty God:-

1 Corinthians 15:24-28
The reading from the New International Version (note the bold type) is as follows :-
"24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27 For he "has put everything under his feet". Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."


New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.
In the following added to help understanding who is being refereed to their name has been inserted into the ( ) as an identity aid.
1 Cor. 15:24 "Next, the end, when he (Jesus) hands over the kingdom to his God* (Jehovah) and Father* (Jehovah), when he (Jesus) has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. [*See John 20:17]
25 For he (Jesus) must rule as king until (Jehovah) [God] has put all enemies under his (Jesus') feet.
26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing.
27 For (Jehovah) [God] “subjected all things under his (Jesus') feet.” But when he (Jehovah) says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one (Jehovah) who subjected all things to him (Jesus).
28 But when all things will have been subjected to him (Jesus), then the Son (Jesus) himself will also subject himself (Jesus) to the One (Jehovah) who subjected all things to him (Jesus), that (Jehovah) God may be all things to everyone.
[N.W.T. ftn. 1 Corinthians 15:28 Or, “will be subjected.”]

Here in the above text Jesus Christ is subservient to Jehovah God as is also shown at


1 Cor 11:3 N.I.V.
"Now I want you to realise that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God."


1 Cor 11:3 Good News Bible (T.E.V.)
“But I want you to understand that Christ is supreme over every man, the husband is supreme over his wife, and God is supreme over Christ.”

The God Jesus Christ is subordinate God to The Almighty "God of Gods" Jehovah.

barry

 

[Der Alte]

Non of those support the trinity doctrine or the like, e.g. non say of God's Son Jesus Christ that he is the "God of Gods" as The Bible does say of his Creator Father:-

Deuteronomy 10:17
For Jehovah YOUR God is the God of gods . .

Daniel 2:47
The king was answering Daniel and saying: “Truly the God of YOU men is a God of gods. . .

Jesus is a God but under the control of Almighty God:-

1 Corinthians 15:24-28
The reading from the New International Version (note the bold type) is as follows :-
"24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27 For he "has put everything under his feet". Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures.
In the following added to help understanding who is being refereed to their name has been inserted into the ( ) as an identity aid.
1 Cor. 15:24 "Next, the end, when he (Jesus) hands over the kingdom to his God* (Jehovah) and Father* (Jehovah), when he (Jesus) has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. [*See John 20:17]
25 For he (Jesus) must rule as king until (Jehovah) [God] has put all enemies under his (Jesus') feet.
26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing.
27 For (Jehovah) [God] “subjected all things under his (Jesus') feet.” But when he (Jehovah) says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one (Jehovah) who subjected all things to him (Jesus).
28 But when all things will have been subjected to him (Jesus), then the Son (Jesus) himself will also subject himself (Jesus) to the One (Jehovah) who subjected all things to him (Jesus), that (Jehovah) God may be all things to everyone.
[N.W.T. ftn. 1 Corinthians 15:28 Or, “will be subjected.”]

Here in the above text Jesus Christ is subservient to Jehovah God as is also shown at

1 Cor 11:3 N.I.V.
"Now I want you to realise that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God."

1 Cor 11:3 Good News Bible (T.E.V.)
“But I want you to understand that Christ is supreme over every man, the husband is supreme over his wife, and God is supreme over Christ.”

The God Jesus Christ is subordinate God to The Almighty "God of Gods" Jehovah.

barry

This is the typical UT response. "My scripture trumps your scripture." "My Bible version trumps your Bible version." Let me address your last proof text, 1 Cor 11:3. "The God Jesus Christ is subordinate God to The Almighty "God of Gods" Jehovah." First this is total nonsense. YHWH said in the OT, there was no god before me, there is no god, beside me, there will be no god after me. Is there any other god, I know not any.

Jesus existed in one form, Philippians 2, vs. 6, but took upon himself another form, vs. 7.

What was Jesus’ form before? If he was literally, actually a man afterward what was he literally, actually before?

Philippians 2:6-11 6. Who, being [continual existence] in the form [μορφη] of God, thought it not robbery [something to be grasped] to be equal with God:

(Greek Interlinear) Philippians 2:6-11 ος {WHO,} εν {IN [THE]} μορφη {FORM} θεου {OF GOD} υπαρχων {SUBSISTING,} ουχ {NOT} αρπαγμον {RAPINE} ηγησατο το {ESTEEMED IT} ειναι {TO BE} ισα {EQUAL} θεω {WITH GOD;}​

The verb ειναι, translated ”to be,” which appears to be a future tense in English, is a present active infinitive, not a future tense. “Being equal with god,” was a, then, present reality not something considered and rejected.

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him[self] the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:​

Jesus’ earthly ministry occurred between verses, 7 and 8. Where the one who was equal with God, vs. 6, the one who, acting upon himself, became flesh, cf. John 1:14, made himself of no reputation, vs. 7, cf. Heb 2:17, took upon himself the form of a servant, and was in the likeness of men, vs. 7. After which God, not merely exalted him, but “highly exalted” him, and glorified him with the same glory he had with the Father before the world existed (John 17:5)

It was here where all the things anti-Trinitarians cannot comprehend happened, e.g. “If Jesus was God, why didn’t he know the hour of his return?” etc., etc., etc.

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.​

If Jesus was only a mere human being, how does a human being, “humble himself and become obedient unto death?” All mankind is appointed to death, no obedience or humbling involved! Heb 9:27. Were the criminals who were crucified with Jesus also obedient, did they also humble themselves unto death on the cross?

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, cf. [ יהוה/YHWH, Isa 45:23] of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, cf. [ יהוה/YHWH, Isa 45:23] to the glory of God the Father.​

In verses 10,11 Paul applies Isaiah 45:23, which refers to יהוה/YHWH], to Jesus as I have shown above!

The [UBS] Committee on Bible Translation worked at updating the New International Version of the Bible to be published in 2011.

In it's notes under "Progress in Scholarship" it discusses the following change:

When the NIV was first translated, the meaning of the rare Greek word αρπαγμον /harpagmos, rendered ‟something to be grasped,” in Philippians 2:6 was uncertain. But further study has shown that the word refers to something that a person has in their possession but chooses not to use to their own advantage. The updated NIV reflects this new information, making clear that Jesus really was equal with God when he determined to become a human for our sake: ‟[Christ Jesus], being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage.”​

See full translators notes at: Bible Gateway NIV Translator’s Notes
Hoover Article​

Note this is by real, accredited Greek scholars which do not exist in the WTBS.

 

[barryrob]

This is the typical UT response. "My scripture trumps your scripture." "My Bible version trumps your Bible version." Let me address your last proof text, 1 Cor 11:3. "The God Jesus Christ is subordinate God to The Almighty "God of Gods" Jehovah." First this is total nonsense. YHWH said in the OT, there was no god before me, there is no god, beside me, there will be no god after me. Is there any other god, I know not any.

Jesus existed in one form, Philippians 2, vs. 6, but took upon himself another form, vs. 7.

What was Jesus’ form before? If he was literally, actually a man afterward what was he literally, actually before?

Philippians 2:6-11 6. Who, being [continual existence] in the form [μορφη] of God, thought it not robbery [something to be grasped] to be equal with God:

(Greek Interlinear) Philippians 2:6-11 ος {WHO,} εν {IN [THE]} μορφη {FORM} θεου {OF GOD} υπαρχων {SUBSISTING,} ουχ {NOT} αρπαγμον {RAPINE} ηγησατο το {ESTEEMED IT} ειναι {TO BE} ισα {EQUAL} θεω {WITH GOD;}
​

The verb ειναι, translated ”to be,” which appears to be a future tense in English, is a present active infinitive, not a future tense. “Being equal with god,” was a, then, present reality not something considered and rejected.

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him[self] the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
​

Jesus’ earthly ministry occurred between verses, 7 and 8. Where the one who was equal with God, vs. 6, the one who, acting upon himself, became flesh, cf. John 1:14, made himself of no reputation, vs. 7, cf. Heb 2:17, took upon himself the form of a servant, and was in the likeness of men, vs. 7. After which God, not merely exalted him, but “highly exalted” him, and glorified him with the same glory he had with the Father before the world existed (John 17:5)

It was here where all the things anti-Trinitarians cannot comprehend happened, e.g. “If Jesus was God, why didn’t he know the hour of his return?” etc., etc., etc.

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
​

If Jesus was only a mere human being, how does a human being, “humble himself and become obedient unto death?” All mankind is appointed to death, no obedience or humbling involved! Heb 9:27. Were the criminals who were crucified with Jesus also obedient, did they also humble themselves unto death on the cross?

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, cf. [ יהוה/YHWH, Isa 45:23] of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, cf. [ יהוה/YHWH, Isa 45:23] to the glory of God the Father.
​

In verses 10,11 Paul applies Isaiah 45:23, which refers to יהוה/YHWH], to Jesus as I have shown above!

The [UBS] Committee on Bible Translation worked at updating the New International Version of the Bible to be published in 2011.

In it's notes under "Progress in Scholarship" it discusses the following change:

When the NIV was first translated, the meaning of the rare Greek word αρπαγμον /harpagmos, rendered ‟something to be grasped,” in Philippians 2:6 was uncertain. But further study has shown that the word refers to something that a person has in their possession but chooses not to use to their own advantage. The updated NIV reflects this new information, making clear that Jesus really was equal with God when he determined to become a human for our sake: ‟[Christ Jesus], being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage.”
​

See full translators notes at: Bible Gateway NIV Translator’s Notes
Hoover Article
​

Note this is by real, accredited Greek scholars which do not exist in the WTBS.

God has universal sovereignty right, he cannot be give power because it is all his anyway right.

Then why:-

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been GIVEN me in heaven and on the earth. ​

This shows that Jesus was GIVEN power which he MUST NOT OF HAD, showing he cannot be EUQAL to The Almighty God Jehovah The Father!!​

Jesus own words"​

No more to say
barry​